Leingod

So, in The Eleven Lights (warning you right now, massive spoilers for that book, don't continue if you don't want that), the dead gods you revive as the Three New Stars are originally just worshiped as a group, but with 500 worshipers any of them could become a sub-cult of Orlanth “or a similar deity.” They could also become a cult of their own with 2,000 worshipers, but that’s another thing entirely.

Anyway, my question is: Who and what would these old/new gods become gods of? How would their worship differ from similar, established gods (since I don't see them replacing any of these gods outright barring some serious Gods War shenanigans), and what changes might they create in Orlanthi society if they become established cults or subcults of their own?

Varnaval the Shepherd King was a very martial god, while his replacements Voriof and Uroth are not. I think Varnaval as a subcult of Orlanth would be a path for shepherds to become warriors who can not only defend their flocks from invaders but take the fight to them. I could see a young shepherd initiating to Varnaval and becoming an Orlanthi version of David, for example, defeating some great foe and becoming a great conqueror.

In other words, I think Varnaval would present a martial path for shepherds to become raiders and conquerors rather than just skirmishers and defenders of flocks, which might lead to greater respect and prestige for shepherds in clans where his worship catches on, which would probably be clans where sheep-herding is already very important to them, i.e. Light Orlanthi clans.

Siwend the Hunter is represented by the Man Rune where his replacement Odayla is represented by the Beast Rune. Odayla represents the hunter as a person who straddles the line between man and beast, a creature of the hinterlands between the wild and the civilized worlds. One of the major Odaylan myths is of a man hunting a bear, one of them coming back, and there is ambiguity as to which is Odayla (with the mythic secret being that they are both Odayla, and that the hunter and the hunted are two parts of a whole).

I think Siwend represents a hunter who isn’t of the wild the way Odayla is; he is a man who conquers beasts, rather than someone who is both man and beast and has to reconcile the two as he advances in the cult. I guess he might become a subcult for the more “civilized” Odaylans?

Apropos of nothing, in Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind one of the Hyaloring gods is Dostal the Hunter, whose wife is Inilla the Forager, a daughter of Nyalda, the Hyaloring name for Ernalda. Meanwhile, Siwend the Hunter is married to Indeg, who made the thorn basket that always has another handful of dried berries in it. Does that mean that Siwend himself might have been a foreign god brought into the Vingkotling fold along with Elmal? Would it then be possible for Siwend to become a subcult of Elmal the way Rigsdal is, or am I just completely off-base in how that works?

Korolful the Keen is a Star Captain; he is the Shooting Star who speeds across the sky to strike enemies with burning flame. He represents the idea that all men make their own inheritance (like all Star Captains, apparently) and values pride, independence and initiative. Very proper Orlanthi values, actually. So, I’m actually not sure what changes introducing the worship of Korolful would bring. Maybe something to do with his Fate Rune?

Baroshi the Avenger is actually interesting, in that he strikes me as akin to a male version of Babeester Gor. He sought vengeance almost from birth and has a strong connection to Maran Gor, and he of course has the Earth Rune.

It actually raises a question for me. Is it possible, as an Orlanthi boy taking his initiation, to display an affinity for both Earth and Death? Being a Nandan is the only Earth-related male role I know of, so what happens if you have a connection to Earth but aren’t really cut out to act like a typical Ernaldan? Is that just not possible, and would introducing Baroshi as a subcult to some suitable Earth goddess (probably Maran, I’d think) make that possible? If so, I’m really curious as to how they would take that in Esrolia, where Babeester is much more popular than she is elsewhere. Would they see that as an intrusion of some kind?

Saren the Charioteer is the driver of Elmal’s chariot, in which Elmal crosses the sky. The Orlanthi aren’t a chariot-focused people in the first place and Mastakos fills any need for chariots and charioteers they do have. It’s actually kind of weird, because the Elmali are the horse riders of the Orlanthi, so I think if a subcult of Saren emerged there might be some real tension with the rider subcult of Hyalor in particular. Which would be an interesting resurgence of the tension between the Riders (Hyalorings) and Wheels (Samnali) in Six Ages, actually.

Actually, in that game “Samnal” was one of the children of Elmal; the Riders didn’t like to admit that, because it would mean admitting that Samnal was closer to Elmal than Hyalor, whose divine parentage isn’t even known to the Hyalorings unless you do the Gamari Heroquest and discover that he was the son of Yamsur. I wonder is Saren is another name for him?

Oonil the Skillful actually reminds me of Lugh of the Tuatha Dé Danann in Irish myth, who among other things is called Ildánach (“skilled in many arts”) or Samildánach (“equally skilled in many arts”). I'm sure that's entirely intentional.

When Lugh tried to join the court of Nuada, he tried to offer his services in a variety of professions, but he was rejected each time because the court already had someone with that skill. Lugh was let in when he asked if they had anyone who could offer each of those skills rather than just one, and so was made the Chief Ollam (Ollam/Oonil?), the greatest poet/bard in Ireland; I think this is actually where D&D got the idea of bards as jack-of-all-trade characters.

Well, after having said that, I’m not sure I can imagine what niche Oonil would fulfill in Orlanthi society. After all, it’s got Issaries for trade and negotiation, it’s got various gods like Gustbran and Orstan for crafts, and the Orlanthi spout poetry all the time. It's got lawspeakers and the like to recite histories and legends of importance. So what would Oonil's place be, then?

I don’t have the confidence to even touch Tanian.

From what I've read, basically all of Ernalda's myths can easily be read as essentially being, "Ernalda plays all these dumb, brutish men like fiddles so they do whatever she wants and protect her from any danger." That's almost certainly how they're all interpreted in Esrolia.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Orlanth is the god of Men and Ernalda is the goddess of Women, but Vinga is the goddess of Women who worship Orlanth and nadan is the god of Men who worship Erlanda. Nothing hard about that! 😉

Orlanth and Ernalda are the gods who set down the roles that men and women are expected to perform in society. A woman who performs a man's role is a Vingan, a man who performs a woman's is Nandan, and these are accepted as having a place in society because of 1/7 thing; Orlanthi society sets down a rule for the majority, and then makes allowances for those who fall outside (within reason, Tricksters!). It's how a society devoted to a god of change and motion are able to embrace stability and tradition.

And according to Heort, vingan and nandan are actual genders, along with helering (for those who, like Heler, are too fluid to be neatly slotted into these defined genders and associated roles; something the Orlanthi accept as holy to Heler but are clearly uncomfortable with).

11 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Eurmal doesn't really like cults with the Truth Rune, as they are opposed to Eurmal's Illusion Rune, so I'd have Eurmal and Humakt as Hostile.

Although Eurmal enabled Humakt to get Death, Humakt always think that Eurmal cheapened it, stole it to give to Orlanth and had a number of other nasty little tricks, hence Humakt is hostile to Eurmal.

You might have a subcult of Eurmal Deathbringer, who may well be friendly to Humakt, but that would be a very restrictive version of Eurmal.

Not quite "Eurmal Deathbringer," but there are several of Eurmal's aspects (and "subcults" associated with a particular shrine that allow a Trickster to take a Proscribed Role) related to his relationship with Death.

As Deadeye the Death-Finder, Eurmal can always find Death wherever it may be; Tricksters who take up this role can gain the Evil Eye, which curses those they look at, and the Deadeye, which kills them instead. When Orlanth lamented the absence of his brother Humakt, Eurmal offered to let him see him; when Orlanth agreed, Eurmal "opened his shadow eye" and showed him all around the devastation Humakt had brought with the power of Death. This vision almost drove Orlanth mad like it had Flesh Man, and he ripped Eurmal into pieces and scattered them around; these became the sites of the shrines to Deadeye the Death-Finder. Humakti can gain the same powers that Eurmali do at these (and only these) sites, so if any aspect of Eurmal would be remotely amenable to Humakt, it would probably be this one.

That's really why so many Orlanthi men worship Orlanth: because he has such a developed mythic arc where he constantly changes (because it's what he embodies), there's some moment in Orlanth's life and experience that you can learn from no matter where you are in your own life. True, a lot of men will inevitably learn the wrong lesson from that ("as long as I try to make it right after, then it's okay if I make a rash, stupid action in the heat of the moment that hurts others" is considered a legitimate lesson to learn from the story of Orlanth killing Yelm, rather than, "If you make a mistake, you have to make it right"). This is simply inevitable with myth.

But the Orlanth of his peoples' myths is very different from the Dara Happans' vision of Yelm: Yelm cannot ever be wrong to a Dar Happan, because he represents an ideal of perfect order. But all but the most foolish Orlanthi knows that his god has made many, many mistakes and had to learn from them to become better. The fundamental lesson of Orlanth's mythic cycle is basically that you are not doomed to be the asshole you start out as, so long as your mind is always open to the right Change.

2 hours ago, EricW said:

Eurmel’s harmony - a powerful new trickster spell which causes everyone in the area affected to talk over each other and assume everyone else agrees with whatever they are saying.

I imagine that's a spell or feat that would be tied to some legend of Eurmal screwing over Issaries that ends with him trading Eurmal himself away to some enemy of his as a slave (or convincing said enemy that he doesn't want them to take Eurmal to pull a reverse-psychology gambit where they run off with Eurmal instead of something valuable), thus killing two birds with one stone so that both Issaries worshipers and tricksters tell the story and take completely different lessons from it.

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yes, a chieftain is a form of a priest. Just not necessarily to either Orlanth or Ernalda. He is the guardian of the clan wyter, able to communicate directly. Chief and wyter play an instrumental role in managing the clan's portion of the magic of the worship services at any holy day celebrated by the clan, regardless which specialist priests officiates the rites of the deity celebrated.

The chieftain is the chief priest of the subcult of "Orlanth as chieftain," whatever name you give him in that aspect (i.e. Dar the Leader), and it is through this that he can contact the clan's wyter. Ernalda and Elmal also have dedicated "chieftain subcults" that allow someone from these cults to take on that same role and power.

18 hours ago, JonL said:

I joke, but also think this is legitimately a feature-not-a-bug. "Our nation has lost 6/7 of it's magic. Most of us still have ours though. Clearly, the right thing to do is draw as much of the nastiness down upon ourselves as possible, because every monster we fight is one we've spared someone else having to face while they're down." When the night is long and full of terrors, they decide to become human bug-zappers.

Actually I just realized, that's basically exactly what happened in "Elmal Guards the Stead," too. Because of Elmal drawing Chaos's attention to Orlanth's stead, the other Vingkotlings were made safer even when he wasn't directly defending them.

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

That aside, it strikes me as odd that Yelmalio apparently is associated with a night time celestial light, but Elmal isn't? I don't want to make a re-thread into the whole "is Elmal the literal sun or what now"-debate, but it just struck me as odd that two gods identified as the same in many newer sources would be associated with a day-time and night-time event, respectively. On the other hand, it could explain, celestiologically, why Yelmalio does not have the Fire Rune (night time stars are not warm, however bright they may be) whereas Elmal has it (he carries the torch that is the sun across the sky daily!)

Well, Elmal has some minor stellar associations; Elmali are obligated to perform the Starwatch, the only night patrols in Orlanthi society, at least a few nights each year. That said, this might be partly because of Elmal's association with Rigsdal the Pole Star, who in Orlanthi society is portrayed as "the thane's thane," Elmal's loyal follower who kept watch whenever Elmal had to leave to take the "torch gift" to distant lands.

19 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Where is this from, the Six Ages game? I guess this means that it was the southern Hyalorings who brought Elmal with them into the Berenenthelli and consequently to the wider Vingkotling/Heortling society?

Correct. In Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind you play as a Hyaloring clan descended from people from the city of Nivorah who refused to hide under the domes and instead rode out into the world under the leadership of Hyalor. In the game, they've had to migrate further south until now they're on the northern shore of the Black Eel River, with clans of Vingkotlings on the opposite shore. Much like the Grazers of the previous game, your first meeting with them is always when they raid you, and it's likely to happen more than once.

Much like in King of Dragon Pass, your clan's good ending is with a foreign wedding, namely that of Beren and Redalda, which seals an alliance between the Hyalorings and Vingkotlings. For bonus points, one of the ending images is of Orlanth and Elmal as giants standing on the south and north of the river and shaking hands as friends much like their people have, echoing the later Heortling myth of the two meeting, fighting, then becoming friends on a river.

3 hours ago, Wrestlepig said:

you could make a good case about Eurmal's bringing of death as a necessity for Orlanth to bring Change but I think it comes down to Humakt not having a sense of humor.

 

I checked the Cult compatibility chart in RQ and they're neutral with each other, but I can't imagine it working out in practice.

When Eurmal is involved, being "Neutral" probably just means that you only beat the crap out of him when he actually does something rather than just doing it on principle.

1 hour ago, JonL said:

I joke, but also think this is legitimately a feature-not-a-bug. "Our nation has lost 6/7 of it's magic. Most of us still have ours though. Clearly, the right thing to do is draw as much of the nastiness down upon ourselves as possible, because every monster we fight is one we've spared someone else having to face while they're down." When the night is long and full of terrors, they decide to become human bug-zappers.

And that is why they are awesome.

It's something I really love about "Elmal Guards the Sunpath," too. The Hyalorings worshiped Elmal as their chief god, and that story tells of how Elmal both earned and took on the mantle of the sun in Yelm's absence. It's his triumphant ascendance.

And yet even in that kind of story, Elmal is still in the role of a steadfast guardian, even though here he goes out and brings the fight to the pretender suns ("sometimes the best way to defend is to attack"). Even when Elmal is attacking, he is doing it to defend something. Even when he claims the mantle of greatness, he does so only because he must, for the sake of others. And these are the qualities that the Hyalorings loved him for, and why they followed him over all other gods (and a few of their distant descendants still do!).

9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

If a carl is defined by his alloted property (whether cattle or land), and property is alloted by the clan ring/chieftain, how does one accumulate personal wealth to rise in rank - or indeed, when?

It's very tempting to look at the Heortling society as analogous of Germanic Migration Era/Dark Age society, due to the obviously borrowed terminology and closely resembling hierarchy, but as various publishers and writers have made quite the point of emphasizing over the years, Heortlings are not Saxons or Vikings. One of the things that drive that home the best for me is the highly corporate clan structure. I'd imagine it's inspired by (Scots?) Gaelic social structure, but sadly I don't know a lot about that, I'm afraid. Hence my question above.

For example, if a cottar somehow manages to amass a great deal* of wealth (maybe he had an exceptional few years with calfing?) how does he "appeal" to the clan to be given non-dependent land, and greater share of it to boot? Can he do that at all? If not, how do we explain social mobility at all?

(*"Great deal" from a Heortling commoner's perspective, of course.)

Well, the idea that the kin-group (in this case a clan) owns the land rather than individuals in it is similar to some Native American groups, like the Iroquois Confederacy. In that setup, usually the chieftain is the one who decides who gets what lands, and that seems to hold true with the Heortlings, as well. So most likely, a cottar who feels his contributions to the clans merit him getting land of his own - or who has a full plow team and so can work his own fields without borrowing from another - would lobby to the chieftain for a promotion.

2 hours ago, Pentallion said:

Well I hope its out on Windows soon.

I think they announced that one's going to be in early 2019.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

you need to bring certain possessions to the wapentake in order to be allowed to vote,

No you don't. The wapentake isn't the vote, it's just how the clan acclaims the new chieftain. As described in Thunder Rebels:

Quote

The members of the clan elect a chieftain at a  moot.  After  candidates  prove  their  eligibility,  the  election  begins.  The candidates  come  forward,  starting  with  the  youngest,  and  a  voice  vote  is taken. Each adult has a single vote, regardless of their rank. If a verbal vote does not clearly differentiate the winner, the clan takes a count, with each person placing a spearhead in the ceremonial election basket of his favored candidate. The winner must have a plurality of votes.

Afterwards, the clan acclaims the new chieftain by a wapentake. All members shout and bang weapons on shields with as much noise as possible. After this acclamation, the priests and priestesses obtain a vow, bless the new  chieftain,  and  initiate  him  into  the  cult  of  Orlanth  the  Chieftain (even if female). Then the entire clan retires to a great feast of celebration.

Unless it's been changed since then.

On 9/7/2018 at 12:55 AM, Dragonsnail said:

After seeing the hunt image below and the stats  for a T-Rex in Runequest Glorantha Bestiary, I say good luck sending 4 swords and 3 bows to hunt it.

https://sixages.com/

It doesn't really matter, since I can never actually track the stupid thing in the first place to get my fighters eaten.

On 9/7/2018 at 4:18 AM, Steve said:

The next game in the series, "Lights Going Out", is under way - https://blog.sixages.com/index.php/2018/09/06/chapter-two/

 

Man, it's gonna be fun being a Hyaloring in the Great Darkness. Or a Berennethtelli, I guess? You know, that makes me think it would be cool to make a clan in Heroquest with the Clan Questionnaire modeled after your game of Six Ages. With the clan's wyter being one of your favorite members of the ring and stuff like that.

6 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

From SKoH, the difference is whether you are of independent means (a Carl) or dependent on others (a Cottar).  Like the distinction in our modern world between a farmer and a farmhand (or a tenant farmer).  It is largely wealth (and wergild) based.  If you've become wealthy enough to have a stead, a herd, and weapons, and dependents, you've risen to the level of a carl.

SKoH p.16 notes:  "Freemen, or Carls, are worth 25 cattle. Any one with a stead, a herd of 42 cattle, a full plow and plow team, and hands enough to harvest it, as long as he has weapons as
well."  

Cottars are worth 10 cows.  They have a plow and team but "living either in a relative’s hall or in a small cottage. You help a carl to work the lands the clan has apportioned to him, for which the carl gifts you with a share of the farm’s produce"

Many herders and hunters will fall under the label of Cottar. 

To expand on what SKoH has to say:

Quote

At the very top of  the clan is the clan Chieftain (“dar”).  The chieftain has at least 15 hides of  land and sizable herds of  livestock gifted to support him and his household.

Thanes,  also  called  “Horse  Men”,  are  those folk with a leadership role in the clan: the bodyguards of   the  chief,  the  priests,  the  heads  of   households and  bloodlines,  the  members  of   the  clan  council and   others   who   have   been   given   unusual   and important  responsibilities  within  the  clan.  Among their responsibilities include being the first ones to go to war; as a result, fighting is almost always their primary  or  secondary  occupation  and  thanes  are well equipped, trained, and ready to fight whenever necessary.    Thanes  are  allocated  herds  of   livestock and about 5 hides of  land and herds of  livestock to support  them  and  their  household. A  typical  clan has around thirty to fifty thanes.

Carls, also called “Cattle Men,” are the free folk of  the clan, with the widest range of  legal rights and responsibilities.    They  own  a  whole  ox-team  and  a plow and are allocated one hide of  land to support their family.  Carls own some military equipment and use it to defend the clan whenever the chief  calls.  A typical clan has about one hundred carl families.

Cottars, also called “Sheep Men,” are the lowest class  of   free  folk.    They  have  no  lands  allocated to  them,  and  instead  work  the  lands  and  herd  the livestock of  others.

Of course, it's also frequently pointed out that it's not quite as simple and clean as all that. The very existence of a "half-carl" alone should attest to that. There's also the fact that craftsmen are technically cottars, since they are dependent on others to provide them food, but many of them have weregild assessed as that of a carl, especially craftsmen like redsmiths.

Then there's the fact that not every clan assesses the most valuable means of providing for yourself to be. The "Eighteen Occupations" lists the "Four Providers:" farmers, herders, hunters and fishers, and what hierarchy exists between the four is purely up to a clan. The Red Cow clan, as its name implies, is big on cattle and herding, and because of that an entire bloodline of fishermen that was adopted into the clan have been so thoroughly marginalized and shut out from leadership in the clan - Chief Broddi Strong-Kin outright considers fishers barely better than stickpickers, the charcoal burners and firewood gatherers who are barely a step up from mere thralls or beggars - that they've formed the main breeding ground of the clan's Lunar converts.

So in the "Orlanth and Aroka" Heroquest, Orlanth shows his feet to Kyger Litor (known as Deloradella to the Orlanthi and the "Dark Woman" in the myth) and this is definitely a euphemism, because he leaves her with child. She bears a child identified by the myth as "Crushing Noise."

So... who is Crushing Noise? It just seems weird to me for the child of the chief god of Air and the chief goddess of Darkness to be such a nonentity. Is there any hint that Crushing Noise is just another name for some known god? And if not, how would you characterize the child of Orlanth and Kyger Litor?

1 hour ago, JonL said:

The Elmal cult write up and Runegate details in the current HQ books are great. When a new to Glorantha person says, "Can I play a Paladin?" I say "Yes, let's talk about Elmal the loyal defender of the clan, God of the Sun, horses, and justice. He's awesome." and they eat it up.

If RQG doesn't get something similarly good, that'll be a shame.

Despite liking the stories and kewl pwerz and phalanxes and all, even in a setting so rich in moral complexities and nuance, I just can't muster up the same enthusiasm for a bunch of oppressive misogynistic mercenaries as I can for the loyal thanes.

2 minutes ago, daskindt said:

Yeah. I guess that’s why I’ve been so disappointed with how the new RQG materials have treated Elmal.

There’s so much excellent material that has come out in the past couple of decades on Elmal that it’s a shame to see it handled so poorly in the new material.

Storm Tribe blew my mind when it was released as a coherent book of complex cults for a fictional setting and Elmal was one of the absolute stars. There’s clearly an evolution from there to Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, but that evolution is excellent and complex. Sartar: KoH is so, so good.

I just don’t understand why RQG is casting that aside. I just can’t get behind the viewpoint of “And it came to pass that Monrogh was right and everyone lived happily ever after in Yelmalio’s cold light.”

Agreed. I've already said that I first got into the setting through King of Dragon Pass, where Elmal quickly became my favorite of the gods presented. So I was a little put out when I started looking up more on Glorantha and one of the first things I found was a blog complaining about being "Greg'd" and how Elmal was a useless addition who didn't add anything to the Orlanthi pantheon.

On the other hand, it's easy to be loyal and steadfast when everything is going your way and when you're getting showered with praise for it. So I guess you could say that an Elmali PC simply gets the chance to prove his true worth by keeping steadfast and acting as a true Loyal Thane even while being marginalized and taken for granted.

Also, something I've been wondering. If, say, an Elmali from one of the "Hyaloring" clans did some experimental heroquesting and stumbled onto "Elmal Guards the Sunpath" from Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind, how would that affect how Elmal was viewed by any Elmali partaking in the heroquest, and would it have any impact at all on the Elmal vs Yelmalio debate? Or is it basically irrelevant in the Third Age?

2 hours ago, Grievous said:

BTW, do we know why the Elmali were rebelling vs. Orlanth followers in Sartar (pre-Monrogh/Yelmalio) in the first place? In a cultic sense this sounds like a strange situation, perhaps suggesting a primary political dimension. Were the rebels mostly certain clans/tribes led by the Elmali (frex. the Runegate clans or the Dinacoli) that were rebelling? 

If so, that could easily make it a have a more political/clan/tribal dimension, where it was about their ambitions first (as opposed by more traditionally Orlanthi led clans/tribes). Their Elmali affiliation tags along and maybe even eventually becomes the main issue. This allows them to find widescale support from among the Elmali in general, not restricted to the clans/tribes that were initially rebellious. This of course makes the situation that much worse as troubles spread. 

What could have been the driving force of the rebellion? Do we have any canon knowledge or old ideas/speculation concerning this or has the attention been solely on what followed? In one sense, it does sound like some Gbaji/Chaos stuff happening in Sartar...

According to the Glorantha Sourcebook:

Quote

The Elmal cult in Dragon Pass came under tremendous influence from the solar religion of Dara Happa, until Monrogh Lantern revealed their god to be another name for Yelmalio. The Yelmalio cult has now eclipsed the native Elmal cult.

Wyrm's Footnotes #15 apparently expands upon this, something about the Elmali of the Far Place worshiping a "Golden Spearman" and Lunar sorcerers revealing something that caused a schism that Monrogh settled by revealing that Elmal is Yelmalio. Does anyone have that?

On 9/4/2018 at 4:09 PM, jeffjerwin said:

Palangio the Iron Vrok, the great Yelmalian hero, was the warlord and enforcer of Nysalor...

Huh. Didn't "Elmal Guards the Stead" claim that Gbaji is actually the resurrected Teller of Lies?

9 minutes ago, daskindt said:

And one of the greatest Yelmalian heroes of the 1618 era is Harvar Ironfist, a Lunar ally, and enemy of the rebelling Sartarites.

More reasons why I really can’t understand the move to completely sideline the cult of Elmal and erase the substantial and meaningful differences between the cults of Yelmalio and the Heortlings worship of Elmal.

We’re told the Elmali believe that Yelmalio’s cult is a product of the Teller of Lies. We’re told the cult of Elmal still has access to the Fire rune. However diminished the cult of Elmal is in Sartar, his worship is in no way reducible to a “mask of Yelmalio”.

I really, really hope the draft of Gods of Glorantha changes substantially in its treatment of Elmal. It currently completely undermines the many sources currently in print (Book of Heortling Myth, King of Sartar, Sartar: KoH, GtG, and even the Glorantha Sourcebook) when it comes to Elmal vs Yelmalio.

Would there be some mythical/heroquesting basis for an Elmali to argue that rather than Elmal being a "mask" of Yelmalio, Yelmalio is actually Elmal before his healing, whose Light made him blind to truth? Elmal at his brightest, but also at his most proud and misguided?

Something interesting that I'm not sure is intentional or not:

Yelmalio's major mythic cycle is about how he lost his Fire and was left only with his Light, but endured despite that. Yelmalio is Light without Fire. He is beaten and broken, but never truly dies and his Light remains all throughout the Darkness. Elmal provides Fire and Light throughout the Darkness. Though he is torn, beaten, broken, even killed, he is reborn each dawn.

Elmal's "origin" in Orlanthi myth is that he leaves the Fire Tribe when Chalanna Arroy heals him of his blindness; not physical blindness, but a spiritual blindness caused by his brightness, which caused him not to see the injustices of the Fire Tribe or himself. Elmal was blinded by his own Light, and Chalanna Arroy had to fix that. After that, Elmal leaves to find his own path, and he hears good things about Orlanth. He visits to confirm it, and he sees the good that Orlanth and the Storm Tribe are capable of.

In "Elmal Guards the Stead," the forces of Chaos try to destroy the Storm Tribe in Orlanth's absence, but Elmal guards them in his stead. Elmal defeats the Eater of Skin, the Author of Sores, and the Maker of Bad Growth, and even though he is rent apart by them, he is restored each dawn and remains steadfast. The enemy realizes it cannot defeat Elmal by destroying his body, and instead the Teller of Lies turns to deception.

First, it appears as a woman that Elmal had once loved and appeals to that love... and to Elmal's pride. Elmal sees through the ruse immediately, but is still affected by it enough that he sheds a tear that sets grass aflame. In the end, though, he banishes the Teller of Lies by retorting that Orlanth did not steal Elmal's pride, but awakened it.

Second, it appears as a shaman, who claims that Orlanth is as good as dead and that Elmal is the only one who can lead the Storm Tribe as king. Many people believe this, and clamor to make Elmal their king. Again, Elmal is not unaffected; he smiles at their willingness to offer him the crown, but his smile is so bright that it blinds them. Elmal then sees that this is a ruse and rebuffs the Teller of Lies once more, and says that he would not have chosen to be loyal to Orlanth if he believed him defeated so easily.

I'm not sure I can put this in words that tie it together, but there seems to be something here. If Yelmalio and Elmal really are just aspects of the same god, then is Yelmalio... I don't know enough about how to talk about Gloranthan metaphysics to even begin to unpack it, I'm sorry.

Let me try something smaller. It's said that the remaining Elmali in Sartar claim that the Yelmalians have been deceived by the Teller of Lies. Could an Elmali also make the claim that the Yelmalians have been blinded by their own Light, the way Elmal once was?

I broke down and bought the game on my phone, incidentally, even though I normally don't like playing games on my phone. Totally worth it.

On 8/5/2018 at 12:03 PM, M Helsdon said:

They are probably avatars of the same entity, viewed through different cultural perspectives. The tension between the Elmal/Yelmalio cults is the sort of religious dynamic that was common in the real ancient world, where the syncretism of different gods was common.

Yelmalio and Elmal are examples of the many different 'Little Sun Gods' in southern Peloria, of which there are many, and most seem to have gradually amalgamated into Yelmalio. It's an aspect of the cultural and social interaction of Solar and Storm cultures in Saird. For that matter, the Dara Happans don't recognize Yelmalio as a son of Yelm...

In terms of the rulebook, this is probably a factor of page count and relative importance. The forthcoming Gods of Glorantha book may cover this in more detail - I haven't seen the Yelmalio chapter.

For that matter, the Solar Polaris and the Storm Rigsdal are the same god, but expressed very differently in the two cultures.

Well, there are definite similarities, but I don't really like the idea of Yelmalio and Elmal as being the same god. It just doesn't... fit, in my head. I just can't really look from one to the other and go, "Yeah, that's just two cultures seeing the same god."

And according to Six Ages the Hyalorings, at least, agree, as Little Yelm is a totally separate god from Elmal there.

On 8/5/2018 at 2:24 PM, Tindalos said:

He's still mentioned as important in other sources.

He's mentioned as the primary sun god of the Orlanthi (Gloranthan Sourcebook 100; Guide to Glorantha 37, 152, 646)

According to SKoH (although that's a few years previous to RQ:G), Yelmalio's worship in Dragon Pass can be found amongst the Far Place and Sun County (with two thirds in the latter), most of Sartar itself likely still sees the sun as Elmal.

If you want to run a game about an Elmali clan/hero band trying to return Dragon Pass to the worship of the Loyal Thane, then that's an awesome plotline that I'm in favour of.

Well, for one I've seen people arguing that the Orlanthi don't even need a "native" sun god and complaining about inserting one. Not that I really give that argument much credence; the sun is way too important for an agricultural society for your only sun god to be a guy you frequently characterize as "the Bad Emperor."

And that would be a cool idea for a character.

6 hours ago, JonL said:

Elmal is the warrior path for those who more than anything else fight because they feel at at their core that the lives of those around them are worth fighting for - and that is awesome.

He's quite well represented in the Sartar books for HeroQuest, with the cult write up in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes and Runegate detailed in the Sartar Companion.

Agreed.
 

You know, I wonder if a big part of the reason a lot of Sartarite Elmali felt dissatisfied with their status to the point of turning to Yelmalio might not be because of both the Orlanthi and Elmali forgetting an important part of the myth of the two.

After Chalanna Arroy healed Elmal of his blindness (I love the phrasing that Elmal - and the rest of the Fire Tribe - was blinded to the world by his own light, BTW), Elmal didn't just go straight to Orlanth; he was still that crazy rebel who'd killed the Sun, after all. It was only after hearing good things about him that he decided to see for himself if it was true. And when he met Orlanth, he didn't just fall to a knee right there: Orlanth tested Elmal, and Elmal tested Orlanth and the Storm Tribe right back. It was only when Elmal decided that Orlanth deserved his loyalty that he gave it, and Orlanth was impressed by Elmal and so he and Ernalda created the Foreigner's Wedding to make him a member of the Storm Tribe.

Maybe this was just in King of Dragon Pass, and maybe I'm just seeing what isn't there, but whenever Elmali nobles and clans got mad about being treated like second-stringers, the recurring phrase by those who were doing it was, "Elmal must always be subject to Orlanth." And there was never really any option in the game to dispute that saying, the Elmali in question would usually either back down or (more likely) just leave angry. It's like both sides have forgotten that the loyalty and trust between the High King and his Loyal Thane is something earned and mutual, not something to just take for granted. And that mistake was never caught by either side and stewed until eventually a bunch of Elmali are willing to completely uproot themselves, abandon the ties of community that they're supposed to be all about protecting and cherishing, and living as monastic mercenaries who shut their women and children up in a separate barracks, because even that's better than constantly being treated like glorified watchdogs by entitled, blustery windbags.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am quite curious whether Six Ages will have the Foreigner Wedding or rather the escape to the plains and Pent. (Waiting for the Android version...) The location on the Black Eel River is neither Berennethtelli nor Pentan.

Speaking of which, Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind treats Elmal and Yelmalio (who hasn't yet lost his Fire) as different and distinct gods. In fact, the treatment of "Little Yelm" is hilarious. He's basically Elmal's entitled, mouthy little twerp of a brother that he has to smack upside the head every now and then to keep him in line.

As someone who was first introduced to Glorantha through King of Dragon Pass, I actually had the impression that Elmal was the 3rd most important god in the entire Orlanthi pantheon (behind only Orlanth and Ernalda themselves) and Orlanth's de facto #2. More to the point, I was a big fan of Elmal: his Heroquest was the hardest in the game, but that fit very well for what it required of Elmal and just made it even more epic when you pulled it off, and becoming the king even though you were Elmali and thus looked down on by followers of Orlanth felt very satisfying. Basically, Elmal was The Man, as far as I was concerned.

So it was pretty disheartening when I got into Glorantha as a setting outside of that game and the canon story is that Elmal is just some minor deity who barely gets any attention or respect and is being muscled out by Yelmalio, who he's regarded as some inferior aspect of (who, honestly, just doesn't strike the chord with me that Elmal does, for all he sorta-kinda tackles similar themes in his myths) and is the source of some big thing with older fans who see him as an unnecessary add-on. His name appears exactly once in Runequest: Roleplaying in Glorantha.

Personally, I think Elmal serves a very important role in both the mythology and the societal structure of the Orlanthi, and I think him getting pushed to the side in favor of Yelmalio is not only kind of a disservice to him, but also something that would probably weaken them in the long run, because Elmal provides a perspective and skills that Orlanth needs and isn't going to get even from Yelmalians who are friendly to Orlanthi.

Also, I can't wait until Six Ages is ported to Windows and I can see Elmal as the Hyalorings view him.