EpicureanDM

Magnificent. For the veterans, was this sort of thing common in past RQ games? How many groups reached this level of play? To me, it looks like people discussing high-level D&D play: often theorized, rarely practiced. I know you're speaking from personal experience, @Thyrwyn. No slight intended.

I'd love to see that if you can find it.

Please do. My party's also in the Big Rubble, but we're only a couple of sessions in. The PCs still have that new-car smell.

Thanks for sharing your experiences from the table, Ultor. Did you throw Small and Medium elementals or spirits at your party before they graduated to Rune Level? If so, can you share what the relative strengths were of each side? Any disasters or near-TPKs? Your point about Rune Lords resisting spells draws that rule out of the background a bit. It's probably fair to say that most RQG groups who are playing actively (at least those reporting in this thread) haven't reached Rune Level yet. New RQG GMs haven't had to adjust to Rune Lord spell resistance. It's a relatively high-level concern that many RQG GMs might not reach for a while, but having it in the back of the mind can be helpful down the road.

If it's not too late, look at what this thread has produced:

Put some numbers and rules on this, Thyrwyn! How would you use RQG's rules to replicate this? Were other PCs in your game creating similar tricks? Share those, too.

Soltakss has made some good contributions to the thread already! The links you provided don't have the sort of mechanical detail I find helpful, though.

Two good tips there. First gives GMs some flexibility and an idea for what to do when a fight's gone south for a player. Keeping a downed PC's player engaged while a fight continues is a good thing. The second one provides context and guidance. Don't get too enamored with some tales of complex RQ combat. Some folks obviously do it and have chimed in on this thread, but it doesn't have to go that way.

So who were the powergamin' RQ ninjas who were running epic battles with spirits flying all over the place?!

I generally agree. We saw evidence of unintended RQG loopholes in this forum's thread about Axe/Sword Trance. But we've seen at least a couple of new RQG GMs chime in to mention how helpful this information has been. As you say, most of RQ2/3's best practices can be imported into RQG; they're very similar. We just need old RQ2/3 GMs to exercise a little care and check the RQG rules before slamming down their nuggets of wisdom. Even when the advice isn't exactly translatable between RQ2/3 and RQG, the nature of the conversation can illuminate (small "i") the meta-structure of the game's design for new GMs.

I need to go back and open RQ3's Magic Book to get a better feel for my old memories of spirit combat. Reviving and translating my old RQ3 instincts into good RQG play has been hit-or-miss. Can't imagine what brand new RQG GMs are doing.

I've had two different groups of new RQG players (no prior RQ experience) look for ways to be a shaman while still taking part in the cults and mythology of Glorantha. So far, I've used Daka Fal's cult as a template for Kolat and Ernalda's cult as a template for Serdrodosa (sp?). I gather that Serdrodosa's more fringe, since it's hard to find information online about her. But Kolat pops up with relative ease. I see people angling for Horned Man and maybe that's enough of a mechanical and mythological fit for RQG. But Kolat's such an obvious option for Orlanthi who want to become a shaman.

That makes sense. How did old RQ2/3 GMs go about introducing spirit combat to their games? I recall that most beginning RQ3 characters were as competent in spirit combat as the beginning RQG characters you're describing. But I get the sense from reading mentions by RQ veterans and the text of various RQ products (past and present) that mature or advanced RQ combat has a spiritual component. There are allied spirits for Rune Lords (something that RQG characters start much closer to, mechanically) buzzing around and talk about shamans unleashing bound spirits held by their fetch. So what should an RQG GM throw at low- and intermediate-level PCs in order to introduce the dynamics and dangers of spirit combat? I can figure out the straightforward answer: introduce one spirit with stats identical to (or close to) the party average and have one PC be a guinea pig. Given that RQG's character generation system largely produces PCs who aren't strong in spirit combat (unless they specialize), maybe it's best to hold off on introducing spirit combat until the PCs are more experienced? Maybe I've read too many descriptions of epic Glorantha battles involving both swords and spirits, and need to be patient? EDIT: Then again, PCs won't get experience with spirit combat unless they actually use the skill and earn checks. But I know that players going into a fight where they know they're the underdog can get demoralized and perhaps disengage from the game. They know the difference in odds between having an 80% Battle Axe skill and a 35% Spirit Combat skill. RQG's spirit combat doesn't have a lot of mechanical nuance, as I recall, so there isn't much room for player creativity to take advantage of "maneuvers" or "tactics" that could give them a bonus to their rolls. I worry about forcing players to engage in lots of spirit combat with skills below 50%, because that's a steep learning curve. I wonder if they'd feel like they're eating their vegetables in order to get to the good stuff, i.e. advanced RQ combat with spirits as an accepted or expected part of the mix.

That seems a bit harsh.

One of the PCs in my game died yesterday after being overwhelmed by Rubble Runners. They were an assistant shaman, had low armor, and two of the Runners had attached themselves via their bites. I had borrowed a rule (maybe it was from elsewhere in the RQG Bestiary) that gave a -5% penalty to combat (like being overencumbered) for each Runner attached to a character, so that didn't help. It wasn't grappling, exactly, but it feels like the effect would be the same as you describe above. Yeah, my players haven't faced any spirits or spirit combat yet. I'll need to be careful about how I introduce that. Probably with a small (POW 10-12) diseases spirit or two.

That's a big reason why I started it. 😉

I like this. It's familiar enough if you've been playing RPGs for a little while, but it reframes it in particular RQG terms. I see what you're saying about that example. It's helpful to see, though, since it helps chart the landscape.

I noted that difference between the duration of RQ3 and RQG spirit magic. It does create translation problems for old tactics as you mention. And, as you say, opponents with average POW might need a few rounds of rolling to get their entire suite of expected spells into play. But I get the sense that most RQ GMs handwave those rolls, at least some of them. Maybe you roll for the Rune Lords, but the cannon fodder (the squads of trollkin) might need to have that magic in place just so that they're a proper challenge for the PCs. So the GM skips that part of the process to keep the game moving and interesting.

I've actually got 35+ years of experience with RPGs, including two years of RQ3 back when it was first published. My first attack by my first-ever RQ PC was a fumble resulting in a critical hit to my own PC's leg. I immediately recognized many of RQG's rules. I've played Rolemaster, Rifts, Traveller, Shadowrun, and lots of other crunchy games. I'm getting back in the RQ saddle but, as I said in the OP, my old group from the '80's weren't the sort to uncover the sorts of advanced tactics and rules interactions that we're seeing in this thread. But I know this stuff is locked away in some RQ GM's brains and I'm trying to dig it out so that we can get the most out of our RQG experience. 😉 It's important to note that most new RQG GMs will be newcomers without experience in this type of game. Threads like this should be put in front of those new players and GMs so that they can see how much depth and strategy there is in RQG. That's the best way to make new, loyal RQG fans. That's some helpful detail. It helps me set internal expectations for how to adjudicate different moments in play, especially since my group's in the Big Rubble. My confusion came because of the fact that RQG PCs start with three Rune Points and they're reusable even if they aren't Rune Lords or Priests. That's a switch from RQ3. What I didn't consider was all of the related perks in the rules (Allied spirit, better DI, etc.). But there's still a range between "new" Rune Lord and "master" Rune Lord. Very helpful. I often read people talking about how hard fights will be if there's time for both sides to buff. It's clearer to me now that they're talking about relatively rare situations (duels, expected battles between large groups) rather than two groups of foes stumbling across each other in the Rubble. I know that it's very circumstantial, but this helps clarify some of the jargon and assumptions around RQG. Great stuff, especially the part about using DI to raise allies from the dead mid-battle. You mention that he can't do it, but that implies that others might (and will). That's not something that most people outside of RQG would think about, especially if every PC is a Rune Lord or Priest. In D&D terms, that would mean that everyone has raise dead regardless of their class. That's a peculiar mindset for D&D players, right? 😉 Again, great. The purpose of this thread is to learn techniques and tricks to teach these principles to players by (gradual) example. Grateful to you and everyone else who's contributing to this thread.

Fantastic. That's all good stuff. Thanks.

Yes! I hope everyone can appreciate how much more helpful this sort of detail is for new RQG GMs. It's grounded in the mechanics, shows how powerful opponents might blend spells together to great effect, and demonstrates how RQ combat differs from what most people are familiar with, i.e. D&D. It might seem obvious if you've got a dozen years of active RQ3 experience under your belt, but it's not to newcomers. Thanks for sharing that.

Your post is great. It really provides some good, granular detail that I can build from. But I do have some questions... Given that starting RQG PCs now start with much more Rune magic and the potential for much higher combat spells than RQ2/3, what does "Rune level PCs" mean in RQG terms? 8 points of Rune magic? 8 points of Rune magic plus an allied spirit (how strong would the spirit be?)? This is good stuff. It's got the general advice component (i.e. "big damage" specialist) but then it's grounded in detail by mentioning a two-handed weapon or Fireblade (or, presumably, Firearrow). I have a question about the last bullet point. What does that fight look like for the first few rounds? Assuming neither side had a chance to prepare in advance, you write that the players are casting Bladesharp while the other side are casting offensive spirit magic, three or four times. Is that meant to suggest that combat could "start", but no one advances for the first two rounds while protective and buffing magic is cast? That would seem strange in the context of the game world. It would be like armies fighting with unloaded muskets. The signal to begin battle is given and they both sort of gesture to each other: "Wait, wait, hold on, let me get ready before we start trying to kill each other." Are you assuming that the players are casting Bladesharp and/or Protection as they're rushing their opponents? You assume that there's a couple of rounds worth of distance to close before melee? In the meantime, the enemy's trying to stop the PCs with Befuddle or Disrupt? I know it's situational, but do you imagine that sometimes the party's facing opponents who can all cast Befuddle or Disrupt, and they all just unleash instead of shooting arrows? I'm with you except for the first part. Does RQ/RQG expect there to be a "buffing contest" before opponents come to blows? Is it normal for there to be, say, two rounds of people not attacking each other and casting buffs before battle? One round of a "truce" before swords are swung? When I say, "normal," I mean if that's what happens in actual play at people's tables. If it happens, that runs against the grain of a D&D-style approach to combat, where you're expected to jump off the mark and kill your opponents as quickly as possible. But if RQG's designed with the assumption of "buffing contests" in mind, then what do those look like? How should I create opportunities for that to happen in play? If that's part of RQG's charm, I want to make sure I don't shut it down with opponents that are too aggressive. I read this a lot, but no one cashes it out with numbers. What does it look like to be a "Rune level" opponent in RQG? I can look at CR in 5e (even if the system's not very helpful) and at least get a general sense about what constitutes a high AC or lots of hit points relative to other opponents. Can it be described abstractly but in relation to a group of PCs, e.g. a "Rune level" opponent has Rune points equal to the highest PC in the group plus four? If I asked you to give me a stat block for a "Rune level" opponent in RQG, what would it look like? How do they do this? If you were going to create stats for a Rune level opponent for your group of PCs, what would they be? Walk me through the way that the stats and rules would put the party in real danger. This is the good stuff. That's granular and specific. I can use that at the table.

That's fair, but why is no one producing (or re-sharing) something like those advice sections from RQ2's Rune Master book? Even if the advice in that book is aimed at RQ2 Rune Lords and Rune Priests, it provides insight into how an experienced, sophisticated RQ veteran uses the combat and magic rules to generate advanced play. D&D players and DMs are always sharing ideas, tips, and tactics for getting the most out of a player's (and monster's) abilities. There's got to be some big, experienced RQ brains out here. I just want to crack them open to see what's inside. There we go, another good trick. Get your allied spirit to buff you before you attack. For players coming over from D&D, that's a pretty foreign concept. Relatively few 5e players have pet wizard-spirits that they can order around in combat to cast beneficial spells for them. Modern D&D players (and probably most modern gamers) aren't used to the idea of OSR-style henchmen, but that's arguably close to the roots of allied spirits when RQ2 was in its heyday. It would be more obvious for someone playing AD&D in 1980. Not as much today. Again, that's valuable perspective. You're suggesting this as if it's a sensible option, but most modern audiences and GMs wouldn't think that the GM rolling 45 separate attacks while the players look on to be exciting play. But if RQG's written to assume that's a sensible tactic (or its proponents think that it is), then it helps me triangulate on what might need to be done to compensate. I have access to RQ3. What's the page reference there?

This is also what I mean by advice that's too general. They're rules of thumb, but new RQG GMs need numbers and rules. Granularity, along with actual play experience, is what allows new GMs to dial-in their instincts at the table. What does "juiced-up" mean exactly in RQG? What spells have they cast and at what strength? How many points of POW do they have available via matrices or spirits? I know that the answer can vary, but if you've got some actual experience in GMing RuneQuest, you must be able to provide some concrete benchmarks. What's the highest you've ever seen in your game? Would you recommend that players reach that level of power? How do you challenge them? Describe these trollkin tactics using the game's rules, round by round. Is it fair to assume they've already cast Protection before the fight started? If they didn't have time to prep, then how should I be thinking about SRs if I want them to have Protection up once the PCs charge through the Darkwall? Should I prepare the encounter with one "spellcaster" trollkin who manages the Darkwall and then spends subsequent rounds casting Protection on each slinger? Do the slingers cast Protection spells in two shifts, half keeping up the rate of fire while half try to cast the spell, then they swap? If you were seated behind me at the table and I turned to ask you how to implement this trollkin strategy in accordance in the rules, what instructions would you give?

Yes! I just bought this on DriveThru and it's exactly what I'm looking for. The advice about the importance of allied spirits, the different sections about tactics (especially Spell Tactics), and lots of other stuff reflects what I'm looking for. It's obviously written by people who have spent time with RQ's rules and have found effective combinations of rules and secrets that reflect a deep understanding of the rules, like casting Fireblade on a giant's sword to limit how much damage it can do. That's clever. But there's got to be more out there, locked away in veteran RQ brains. 😉 EDIT: Look at this example text from Rune Masters: A RuneMaster faced with a foe who has Shield 4 and Countermagic 6 up just pulls an extra POW 14 from one of his familiars to go with a Harmonize spell and blows down the Countermagic. I realize it's working within the RQ2 rules context, but that tactic isn't familiar or immediately obvious to RQG newcomers, is it? It would still generally work in RQG even if the spells are somewhat different? That might seem obvious to veteran RQ GMs, but it might not be to most. It suggests what fun and exciting RQ battle should look like, but it's expressed through the rules of the game. That's what I'm trying to find.