Dragon

Disrupt has a 'target', not a 'living target'. If Disrupt works on spirits and manifest elementals, I would think it works on skeletons. Zombies are listed with 1d6 MP, with no POW. Skeletons probably should have an MP stat in the Bestiary. Besides Turn Undead certainly works on them, and requires a resistance roll against their MP.

3 minutes ago, Alex said:

OK, "bad example", as Colonel O'Neill famously (and repeatedly) said. But you get the general idea!

Now you've got it! 😄

Thought experiment:  what sort of "Air" rune rating would someone like Lokamayadon -- said to be trying to supplant the god himself according to his detractors, maybe actually largely responsible for the modern cult, if you believe his revisionist defenders -- have in his pomp?  Or Argarth Orlanthsson/Orlanth Argarthi at a similar point?  Or is there there some other mechanic entirely at work here than Rune ratings, or have we just thrown away the RQ completely at this point?  (Pass the Questworlds rules, or 13thAG, or Fate, or AW, or Dragon Pass...)

Those darn archeologists who carry weapons! I always liked the "That's O'Neill with two Ls".

Indeed. I am convinced that those examples (not bad ones at all) are all quite loaded with heroquest abilities which we cannot yet describe as we are still waiting for HeroQuest rules for RQ. (Not the renamed QuestWorlds). We got a tease for the Hero Points from <woodsy spoiler which shall remain unnamed here>. But very vague rules as to how that works. Can that one point be used constantly, every 15 minutes, does it require worshippers to restore it? 

7 hours ago, davecake said:

In RQG, one of the most common abilities is that it lets you suppress your own Passions. That is a very big change for the human side of things. 
Personally I think doing so should have consequences- but the most likely consequence is simply reducing the Passion. It’s a great potential for bringing Illumination into the roleplaying side of things - both showing the way Illumination changes who the person is, and providing interesting roleplaying choices in play, as to whether to lean into the characters past and individual drives, or into the bigger perspective of the Illuminate. 

noted that the rules are very vague, and imply rules may differ in detail between forms of Illumination - I personally don’t think such an ability, or most Illumination abilities, would be 100% reliable.

For Nysaloran Illuminates, often the Passion in question may be Devotion (deity) - and doing things like joining a hostile deity probably requires overcoming your own Devotion. It’s not just going down the enemy temple disguised as Guy Incognito to pick up some new spells. And Illumination, even with the most extreme of Nysaloran irresponsibility, doesn’t just flip the sociopath switch. 

It’s also pretty notable that reducing your own drives and Passions seems to be a foundation of (though this vastly oversimplifies it) dragonewt way. And using Dragon Magic may increase them. But notably mysticism connected. 

The relationship to the Runes is also similar, though more directly connected to magic as well, and I argue it’s probably more restricted. But an Illuminated Seven Mothers priestess who becomes high in both the Life and Death runes does not just get immediate magic benefits (they already have access to both Death and Life runespells, but now might actually have a reasonable chance at casting both), but also has changes at the personal level, becoming capable of being both warm and loving and nurturing, and a callous killer, as needed. Like our beloved Jar-Eel. 

Well said. I was thinking it was pretty obvious that if you made that Sacred Time Illumination roll with a e.g. skill of 14, you would be able to overcome your Passions by an opposed roll of the Illumination skill vs Passion. Which is to say, still pretty rare when you first start out.

16 hours ago, Alex said:

<fails to take cognisance of the 120% Status, 140% Fire, 160% Earth, and 210% Moon>

An intriguing prospect. I do not recall a RAW method to achieve Runes much above 100. IIRC If you use it successfully, you get an experience check. You can then roll against the current ability - which has no bonus. Thus, the character has to roll a lot of exactly 100. But I do get that the Movement/"Status" dichotomy should garner attention even at Movement 70/Stasis 90. Clearly said character has swapped competing power runes.

Hence, you must be saying that said character did some nefarious or extremely unusual runic manipulations to achieve those runes. Much heroquesting!

51 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There are a few things you cannot do while maintaining a Fireblade, one of these is control your mount in battle. Given the restriction for Fireblade use in mounted combat comes up twice before, I wonder why that wasn't repeated here.

Good question, but it is answered already by the following paragraphs. That concentration roll only applies to Riding mounts. It is overridden for Cavalry and War mounts. 

My emphasis in bold, from RiG page 167: 

"   When an adventurer is riding an animal untrained for battle, the player must roll the adventurer’s Ride skill or less every melee round and at any time the mount is injured. If the roll is unsuccessful, the adventurer must spend the next melee round calming the animal by making a Ride roll, to the exclusion of all else. If the adventurer does not attend to
their mount, or fails the roll, the animal bolts away from the excitement. If this happens, refer to the rules in the Ride skill description for unexpected actions by the animal.
Controlling an animal during battle requires concentration. 

   An active spell such as Fireblade is impossible to maintain due to the concentration the spell needs.
   A cavalry animal is trained to remain under control in combat: Ride rolls are not needed and active spells can be maintained.
   A trained war animal fights for itself and the rider needs only to sit on the animal, so that Ride rolls are not necessary and active spells can be cast."

You will notice the same clarifications for cavalry and trained war animal in on page 220. Fireblade cast while riding cavalry mounts is just fine, RAW. So are other active spells. That is a good way to get around the MA 4 requirement for the non-Fireblade active spells. Have the mount do the movement.

That was why I didn't repeat that here, I figured that anyone who knew Fireblade and might try to use it in mounted combat would likely have at least a cavalry mount.

The main thing I get from those repeated mentions is: DON'T ride an untrained mount into actual combat. Untrained mounts bad, trained mounts good.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Unless Bon manages his INTx3 roll (regardless whether his POW was overcome or not, having that POW vs POW struggle already is the distraction, as would be spirit combat).

Your explanation 'having that POW vs POW struggle' is definitely not RAW. Spirit Combat is specifically called out. Taking magical damage is specifically called out. Having the enemy casting a Disrupt that fails to overcome your POW is definitely not called out. Maybe if the Disrupt comes from your friend it is a 'something unexpected happen'. Sure, if you are overcome with a non-damaging spell, that could be 'unexpected'. But successfully resisting a spell in a Gloranthan battle cast by an enemy you perceive? No, happens all the time.

Here is the quote from RQG: RiG page 247: "Such spells require the concentration of the caster to remain in effect for their full duration. If the caster tries to throw another spell, is attacked in spirit combat, takes physical or magical damage, or has something unexpected happen, then the caster must make a concentration roll (INT×3
as a percentage) or the effects of the spell cease and the spell must be recast for the effect to again apply."

If the designers had agreed with you it would say (emphasis added): "Such spells require the concentration of the caster to remain in effect for their full duration. If the caster tries to throw another spell, is attacked in spirit combat, takes physical damage, must resist a magical spell, or has something unexpected happen, then the caster must make a concentration roll (INT×3 as a percentage) or the effects of the spell cease and the spell must be recast for the effect to again apply."

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It is hard to fight a troll, so :

If an iron sword with true-sword on hits a special on a troll, what multiplyer do we use?

4 times - weapon damage doubled, plus weapon damage from truesword, plus weapon damage again from the iron?

5 times - doubled weapon damage doubled for iron for a total of 4 times, plus once for Truesword?

6 times, as in non-iron special damage doubled?

8 times, as in doubled for special doubled for iron doubled for Truesword?

And now add Fireblade into the mix, sit back, and have some popcorn.

Definitely not in terms of iron on trolls. That is specifically for any portion that bypassed armor and parry. So if you rolled 19 damage (including damage bonus), and the troll parried with a great club for 12, then armor stopped 6, one point got through and is doubled to 2 for iron on a troll. Had the parry failed, 13 got through to be doubled to 26.

Note that doubled damage for a Humakti gift also works after armor.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

The most ludicrous but unfortunately logical solution would be that Truesword adds the weapon's regular damage as magical damage while the normal damage is changed to 3D6 fire damage, both inflicted at once to the same target. A changed Telmori would be damaged by both, a fire elemental only by the Truesword magical damage.

Can a weapon under the influence of Fireblade be damaged or break? Can it parry?

Fire Elementals can be affected by any weapon. All elementals can be. RQG Bestiary, page 177, start of second column: "All elementals can be struck in combat with ordinary
weapons, breaking up their physical form and eventually disrupting them. They have only one hit location and no armor. When an elemental has been reduced to 0 hit points,
it dissolves."

You are either

1. conflating the rules in RQG: page 36 section call 'Attacking with Weapons and Spells' for disembodied spirits. Elementals are not disembodied spirits while manifesting.
2. stating that Fire Elementals explicitly are immune to fire damage. I will note that no specific statement in RQG Bestiary states that. Though that may be a reasonable suggestion, the RAW do not say that. Are Dehori immune to Fear? Lunes to Madness? Umbroli to Lightning?

Are things without INT immune to Madness and Mindblast? I would guess Mindblast at least. But that would answer the question about Lunes and Madness.

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

...especially when CAs try to charge the party for healing after the adventure, and after all the loot has been divided up. 

Presumably that Chalana Arroy is part of the party, and agreed to whatever shares the party defined. Any such CA who then says, 'because I fixed your maimed leg during the battle against the scorpion men, you also owe my temple' should be brought before the Lawspeakers for violation of the contract. The party agreed to bring the CA along knowing the CA's contribution to any fights was almost completely limited to healing. Sure, the CA could also track, listen, devise, etc..

Now, if the Chalana Arroy didn't get shares of the proceeds, the CA is entitled to charge for healing. For example, a healer you rescued.

The party should simply part ways with a double dealing CA?

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

No Chalana Arroy cultists in their right mind would dispel a flight/wind walking/similar spell mid-flight as they know that this will cause the target to become hurt. It will cause harm and could kill an intelligent person.

This.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

It was more an example of how rules-mongering can have undesired effects.

I loved Asimov too. But, the entire idea that a certain robot can override the Three Laws by inventing a Zero-th Law was certainly rules-mongering in my estimation.

On 1/8/2022 at 2:27 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Only "De-Nature Alcohol" and "Mark of Sin", but those are from The Book of Doom, not an official Chaosium publication.

Sorcery spells by Rune and Technique

Thank you so much for the reference document.

Not exactly an errate, but a missing designation or clarification.

We now have a category of pole-axe in pole weapons. And weapons pole-sword and sword staff in the category spear (2H).

How do those work with spells such as Axe Trance, Firespear, Soulspear, Strongblade, and Sword Trance? Inclusive or Exclusive.

Flamesword in Red Book of Magic is clear it is inclusive.

e.g. Would Axe Trance work on a pole-axe (in the pole-axe category) as it has the word axe in it? Or is it entirely exclusive to weapons in the Axe table? 

Would Sword Trance work on a sword staff or pole-sword?

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I figured that point would come up (and, thanks for reminding me of WAW - I knew I missed one!)

However, I don't think I'm convinced. Yes, I get it's an Insightful casting. And I get it's a Dispel. I'm just not convinced that a CA would use any Death runes, for any purpose. Just like, apparently, they wouldn't even use a shield for defensive purposes.

Of course, yada yada varying Gloranthas......

Any GM could rule that way. In which case, I would suggest such GM consider an alternative.

We have already seen Logical Clarity vs Solace of the Logical Mind. The former is Illusion+Dispel. The latter is Truth+Command. While the wording is not identical, the effects are pretty darn close. Logical Clarity immunizes against Orate and magic 'mental confusion' (specifically Madness), where Solace is specific to mind-altering magic and never mentions non=magical effects. Clearly Befuddle is an 'other mental confusion' for the purposes of Logical Clarity. And Madness is a 'mind-altering magic' for the purposes of SofLM. So those are covered by both spells. A vampire's Enthrall is mind-altering and a magical effect, so specified in one and covered by the other. They didn't mention a Jack-O-Bear's primary Chaos feature, but they both sound like that would be included, as well as Berserk, Fanaticism, Panic, Fear, a Lune or Shade attack, etc.

The last two sentences in each have the same meaning, with slightly different wording. e.g. "spell's strength level" vs "spell's levels of strength", and "augment any skill" vs "augment any ability". 

Here we have the same effect with two different spells that have very different runes+techniques. So the designers are, IMHO, offering us a method. A different sorcery source could offer a nearly identical spell, using different runes+techniques.

So a very generous GM who believes no CA would ever use insight to Death could have a sorcerous CA find a tome that teaches e.g. Lifeblood, which has almost exactly the effects of Dampen Damage but using Life+Command.

In my Glorantha, I will allow the CA to use insight into Death, but would prohibit them from learning sorcery spells which have things like Death+Command or Death+Summon or Death+Combine, e.g. no Boon of KT. A CA asking to master Death so they can use insight to Life is right out. I am having difficulty imaging a spell which uses Death+Tap. Which of course leaves Death+Separate. Maybe if it separated e.g. the Slow Death (disease) from a body I would allow it. Such a spell could be Neutralize Disease, but that seems like it would most likely be Death+Dispel.

I don't have a good idea how Separate is used in sorcery, as I could find zero examples in the limited list we currently have. Did I miss one?

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The wording is "don't harm a living thing and aid all within the limits of one's ability".  Now, this ruling doesn't apply to spirits, does it? Of course not.  A Chalana Arroy cannot heal a damaged mind, unless it is damaged by a disease. Clearly Chalana Arroy is about healing bodies, not minds.  You see children always complain that they don't like the taste of their medicine, or that their stitches itch, but ultimately they are hurting themselves by not obeying the wise healer, and must be stopped for their own good.  Arguably being the slave of a healer is the best possible outcome, as the healer will always find ways to insure you are healthy and productive and you will be bound to follow them in the noblest of all possible endeavors; the healing of the world.  How are you "harmed" by being bound into the most noble purpose of the kindly goddess of healing?  Surely "aid all within the limit of one's ability" therefore must include he social and emotional shackling of individuals to a cause that they in their willful ignorance would not otherwise willingly follow due to their evil and waywardly childish natures?  If Malicia has the ability to help the cause of Chalana Arroy by trapping people in debt slavery so they are bound to help world peace through their perpetual economic contribution, how is that a bad thing?  This is the best way she has yet come up with and represents the limit of her ability to aid the whole world.  

After all, freedom is a very esoteric concept, and most people who have freedom use it very badly.  They think only of their own advantage, and they often go around hurting people (like those troublesome guards that protect priestess Malicia. Phew, isn't it good that they mainly obey her, and for the most part they only beat seven colors of shit though people who owe her money and don't pay, but she scolds them bitterly for such behavior, often docking their pay (actually she doesn't pay them, because they owe her too), and she always heals the injured party herself.  Of course good people will make further donations to the cult at this point.  You wouldn't want to offend the healers after all...) 

So too money is such a materialistic concept that leads to terrible behavior as people pursue it for such ignoble and self-serving ends.  Before Time, people had no such pretentions, and were happy to have food, drink, medicine, shelter, clothing, and a profession.   Service to Chalana Arroy through her servant Malicia is a spiritual calling, which allows one to divest oneself of such silly notions as freedom and wealth, in order to live a simple life in noble service that will make the world a better place.

It should also be pointed out that individual initiate healers don't lose their rights to private property (well, unless they are working in Malicia's temple at Horn Gate, in which case Malicia will find a 'legitimate' way to turn them into her cash cows).

Any resemblance to the Cult of Gark the Calm are purely coincidental! 😈

I was using the quote from "Notes: An initiate must take an oath never to harm an intelligent creature or needlessly cause pain to any living thing. An initiate must give half of their income to the cult of Chalana Arroy. An initiate must become a vegetarian. An initiate of Chalana Arroy can identify the presence of disease in a person or thing, simply through concentration. Foes incapacitated by a healer’s action (usually with Befuddle or Sleep) are under her protection. They may not be harmed in any way, though they may be disarmed and captured. Chaotic foes are exempt from this protection." from RQ: RiG page 290. I am not familiar with the context of your quotation.

I am not swayed by your diverting rationalizations. I do not believe a Goddess who exists in a world where Gods and Goddesses tangibly interact with the material world would be swayed. They power rune spells, send dreams, provide answers to divinations, respond to divine intervention requests, and send spirits of retribution. You say your GM was not lenient. I disagree. YGMV. 

13 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There is nothing that says that a Chalana Arroy can't use blackmail, cronyism, loan sharking, bribery, drug dependence (this one is tricky), underhanded negotiation tactics, fraud, and other dirty tricks to make money and win political influence.  Malicia always negotiated with a view to creating a peaceful outcome, but one where she inevitably gathered more power and money.  Chalana Arroy is not a truth rune cult after all, and not every peace is a good peace.

Well that clearly depends very, very strongly on the definition of 'harm' in 'never to harm an intelligent creature'. In my world, blackmail, loan sharking, bribery, drug dependence, and some other dirty tricks are all a flat out 'harm'. It isn't physical harm, but is certainly is psychological and/or emotional harm. 

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The purpose of the oath is to stop the evils of war and the harm it brings to all sentient creatures.  To this end...

1.  Never use weapons or magic to cause injury or death to any living creature.  2.  Pursue peaceful resolution to conflict where possible.  3.  Seek an apolitical and neutral stance so you may facilitate peaceful outcomes more easily.  3.  Don't deliberately kill any living thing except plants.  Learn Foodsong if you have the opportunity. 4. Hurting yourself doesn't break the oath as it relates to your behavior towards other creatures, not your behavior towards yourself.  5.  Using cutting implements and poisonous ingredients as tools of healing doe not break the oath, as they are invariably removing internal chaos from the patient's body.  6.  Animal products that involve the death of an animal are undesirable, and alternatives should be sought where such is a reasonable proposition. 7.  Laying traps is not allowed. 8. Your patient is a sacred trust.  If you place someone under your protection, you may defend them with your magic and even interpose your body between them and any harm, but you must not harm the attacker. 9. You are not obliged to heal people who have offended against you, but such pettiness demeans the calling of a healer. 10.  While the undead fall outside the technical parameters of the oath, you are not trained for combat, so fighting them is an undesirable outcome. 11.  Cure Chaos Wound now specifically removes broo impregnation. (RQG p325)  12.  Spirits fall outside the protection of your oath unless they have living bodies.

A decent starting set. The first sentence is okay, but is not inclusive enough. The oath is also to stop interpersonal conflict as well: assault, rape, death, etc.

You have #3 twice. I can see the first #3 as being a little stringent when contrasted with an apolitical stance regarding Hendrikiland vs Queendom of Jab. But it has the word 'seek' in it, so is acceptable in that context. The second #3 could mention that eating plants in a way that does not kill the plant (e.g. leaves) is preferable when convenient. For #7, would laying noise maker traps be disallowed? i.e. maybe tighten that to traps which bind or harm are not allowed. #9 maybe add a caveat that failing to heal those who actively tried to kill you (e.g. Chaos) does not demean the healer - again your statement has wiggle room in there, so could be seen that way. Especially in certain temples.

By 'starting set', I mean that individual temples may have a slightly different version. Based on the history of the area. In the center of the Lunar Heartland, they may be different than in uncivilized lands like Prax.

4 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Really?  This sounds suspiciously like immaculate conception, and I don't recall a rune-spell for that.  I think Xiola Umbar has Couvade, but that isn't available to CA. 

Comfort Song. Not the same as Couvade. Covers the birthing part of the process, not the morning sickness and earlier parts as Couvade would.

58 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Chalana Arroy requires its members to swear an oath that is, frankly, crippling, if you take it literally.  I have enjoyed playing a crime lord (lady) Chalana Arroy who worked hard twisting the requirements of those rules, and so I know the arguments pretty well now, as my evil Chalana Arroy High Priestess Malicia of Horn Gate abused the interpretation of them well past breaking point, turning strict adherence to the oath into a political weapon that she used to get rivals ejected, censured, demoted, disciplined, fined, and even sent on involuntary hero quests (the death sentence).  There is no cult which needs a clarification as to its membership requirements as much as Chalana Arroy, as its open ended oath is almost impossible to follow in its present form.  Having utterly abused the system, I am arguing for reform as I am overly aware of its appalling weaknesses.

You 'utterly abused' the system because your GM allowed it. I do not take that as meaning the oath in any other GM's Glorantha has that same 'appalling weakness'.

Note I am not disparaging your GM at all. It was an interesting one-off scenario/world that I might consider with very experienced players. Likewise, a GM who wants to try running the CA oath as a straight jacket (e.g. the initiate can only eat leaves that easily allow the plant to recover, never the root or stalk; they must cast Healing or Mend Flesh on the plant afterward) would equally be an interesting one-off scenario/world. Heck in my Glorantha, a CA High Priestess was also the regional spy master and got found out by the Spoken Word - she was strictly the gathering information type of spy master.

But I would never consider the usual interpretation of the intent of that oath to be allowing such an evil CA to run rampant causing harm to others.

Thus, I find it hard to understand how you believe that because one GM allowed you to 'utterly abuse' the system, you are positive that every other GM in the world needs to buy into your view. YGMV is all that needs be said.

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'll probably start a separate thread on a topic like this, but..... 

I presume we'd all be fine with a CA learning sorcery to heal, fight diseases, and perhaps a range of other innocuous spells.

But, what about Dampen Damage? RAW, and only currently in the RQG, that requires using the Death Rune. And I'd presume a few might take issue with that (especially CA herself).

Yeah, I get that someone will want to say "just use a different Rune combination, and create a spell with the same effect".

But... Do any here think using Dampen Damage with Death Rune would be ok??? Is such knowledge forbidden?

You would have a point if the CA sorcerer had mastered Death.

I think you are reading the wrong implication in Dampen Damage. Dampen Damage is Death and Dispel. I think it is intended that a CA sorcerer would tend to master Life, which provides insight to Death. And casting a spell which dispels death in the parlance of sorcery is quite acceptable. The same can be said for Ward Against Weapons.

A CA sorcerer casting Boon of Kargan Tor, which is Death and Summon would be a completely different prospect. That would be akin to casting Bladesharp on your friend's sword, a prohibited spell to CAs.

Mastering Life make casting Mend Flesh and Accelerate Healing easier and quicker, because it is mastered rather than insight. Mastering Death makes casting Dampen Damage and Ward Against Weapons quicker and easier.

Animate Death requires both Death and Life, and therefore it seems would nearly always be cast with one of them being via insight. 

Waiting patiently for more sorcerous spells that involve Life. And Harmony.

Since we mentioned spoilers already...Huge spoiler.

1 minute ago, g33k said:

Rune Magic generally goes off really quick; also, mostly fits into well-known effects.
Spirit Magic is slower, but its effects are even better-known (there are very few cult-secret or unique Spirit spells).

Most experienced adventurers will know these patterns.

If someone is casting a spell, and is still casting after a round of combat... well... he's your godless huckleberry.  Get 'im quick before his spell goes off!

Except Rune Magic that is ritual. And the LM sorcerer is likely going to be using ritual practices to boost their chances of locating the particular object (Geomancy), boosting his INT for days, or boosting his Knowledge skills for the time needed to complete said skill (Logician). Things like Identify Otherworld Entity are sort of like detect spells, the LM just spends a round in ritual practices (as far as the observer knows).

Meaning, the less experienced adventures won't be able to sense the LM is that different. The experienced adventurers know the rumors about LMs and they will also know that LMs are no direct access (they have to get outside the Torvald Fragments) to any sorcery that causes damage. So, if the enemy with the fake beard and Truth and Stasis tattoos is casting a long spell, you might just shrug and keep trying kill the Humakti. Not like the Malkioni who might be casting a Boon of Kargan Tor to support the Humakti. Or Finger of Fire. Or the Lunar sorcerer about to cast Moonfire.

12 hours ago, Alex said:

@simonhis IMO exactly right that the correct approach to fixing it -- to whatever extent it needs fixed -- is the amends and reparation.  Especially seen through the Orlanthi social context, where they were moving fast and breaking things, long before that guy in the Valley adopted that as a slogan, but with an emphasis that fixing them afterwards is the thing to do.

And it makes a good scenario hook. The CA did something a bit wrong, though not intended. And now needs to 'heal' things. Things like that can happen and what matters is making it right again.

On 12/10/2021 at 5:47 AM, simonh said:

That's a truly terrible heuristic to apply in Glorantha. It's full to the gills with weird crap. You can't afford to go round making mortal enemies with everyone/thing that you don't recognise or understand.

Indeed. Scorpion Men are historically Chaos. To someone who doesn't know better, are centaurs also Chaos because they are a human torso attached to a beast body? How about Fox Women in human form, i.e. with a big tail? Could be a Chaotic Feature! Examples abound.

Note that Chalana Arroy has some nuance. There are two big exemptions: Chaos and the not living. So a Chalana Arroy attacked in spirit combat by a run of the mill spirit can actively use Spirit Combat against it. They do not need to be certain it is a Disease Spirit or Mad Head Ghost or similar. It isn't alive, so defend yourself as best you can. 

Chalana Arroy also has a significant difference between what the initiate+ can do and what the initiate allows the party to do. A party that includes a CA cannot be murder hobos, or the CA must leave. But if they are ambushed by trolls, and a couple of the trolls are killed, the CA doesn't need to leave the party. Perhaps say a prayer for the souls of the dead trolls. On the other hand, if the CA Sleeps/Befuddles a troll and that one is killed, the CA needs to leave the party or the party must kick out the killer. In either case, the CA must inform the local cult leadership the killer is now denied healing. Same scenario for other non-chaotic enemies.

IMHO.

In the interests of bizarre happenings, a CA is attacked by what they presume is a run of the mill spirit; but is actually a discorporate non-chaotic shaman. The CA rolls a special Spirit Combat roll and inflicts actual damage on the shaman's body - completely unknown to the CA (RiG, p 369, Hit Point Damage section). Perhaps that does not count, because at the specific time the shaman is discorporate and thus not 'an embodied target'. Would that get the CA in serious trouble with the cult? If so, an particularly nasty Kyger Litor shaman/priestess could wreak havoc at the local CA temple by engaging each initiate at an opportune time until the CA initiate scores a special or critical result and then withdrawing.

On 12/11/2021 at 6:22 PM, Shiningbrow said:

I'd say Mostali as well, but science sort of requires the willingness to change (ideas, theories, practices)...

Mostali seem capable of change. They just do it within their own rigid structures. They never had a need to design a Gobbler who could consume that explosive powdery material, and then they did when humans got hold of it. Aren't Mostali credited with making the constructs which searched out everyone with God Learner abilities and wiped them out? Those didn't exist before the God Learners. So constructs are their rigid structure, and a new one being their scientific/engineering progress.