Squaredeal Sten

20 minutes ago, John T. said:

......for the first time, there are no Ring or Head yet to perform the initiation, so how are they Initiated?

I assume that Shah’vashak will have to be more actively involved, .... Does Shah'vashak manifest and act as Head for that first Initiation? Does he do so for the whole group, or just for his chosen priest, who then becomes the Head and initiates everyone else? ...

When Sh'Vash'kak is first discovered he will have chosen his priest - or his priest chosen him - read 6S pp. 80-82 and 101 for the ways this can happen -   and the rest of the party is invited (not compelled) to also sacrifice magic points to him.  This is the first initiation.   Not fancy at all.  After that my interpretation is that the Priest is the Head, but you don't worry about that until the second book. 

I note that the second book does not actually explain how you get to the later initiation ceremonies.  I haven't actually run that book, as I wanted to take my campaign in a different direction and can always loop back to it later if I want.    Looks to me as if it is the GM's choice how to get there, and also how much to role-play.  Does the spirit specify the ceremony, does the party make it up?  As written, that transition happens off stage. 

 

 

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

Alchemists will tell you that Making chocolate is a lot more disgusting than you think.😄

I wonder if chocolate, or cacao beans, is produced in Pamaltela?  Just a thought.  MY Glorantha can vary to have chocolate. Yeah.

On 6/10/2021 at 5:26 PM, Darius West said:

BUMP

It seems to me that the costs of production of the various types of potions are equal - no difference between Healing and Cure Soul Waste - , because:

If you follow the process in Red Book of Magic (same as in Cults of Prax) what any plant found, and a resulting potion,  does is random.  So the same amount of work produces any type of potion, though extra work and magic may make them more potent.  30% of the results are for wounds,  20% for poisons, 50% for various diseases.  Subject to a shift through the Rune spell Refine medicine, but it seems to me that rune spells are expensive enough that such shifting is for emergencies rather than for an industrial process.

So i will believe healing potions selling for less for the reasons others have cited above, as well as their common-ness.  But the productivity question always has the same answer.  Whatever the answer is.

On 6/7/2021 at 6:54 PM, lordabdul said:

 

Is there anything in particular you want to know? I've done a fair amount of "research" about it.

A lot, but it appears it hasn't been written.  i was asking for use in my campaign,  I can create things, - did create some names of clan chiefs and priests  -  but don't want to contradict canon and would  rather run with things that have already been written, if they have already been written.  Also other people often think of cooler stuff than I do..

I will be glad of the Sartar pack this winter - but last week and this week I'm using what i have.

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

...... I would also point out that making healing potions is not where the money is.  Glorantha is a place where even a village idiot knows a point of healing magic, and healing potions can't realistically compete with that .....

The notable exception is if you can produce a healing biscuit that can re-attach a limb like a healing 6 spell.   Those will sell. 

An alchemically proficient healer won't bother much with healing potions and biscuits, but will instead sell plenty of disease remedies and poison antidotes.......  

Yes, i should have expanded the question to include cure - disease potions too.

However the healing potion is still a nice thing in a magic fight, where you may want to spend your personal MPs on offensive and defensive spells and a potion may be more available than a MP storage crystal.  Not every GM gives crystals out like Cracker Jack prizes.

Soltkass's reminder about the Book of Doom is a good one.  The textual discussion is long and involved, but the tables give easy answers on a per- POT basis. 

I will say my personal take on it in accord with the RBOM table on finding healing herbs, as well as some of  the Book of Doom dicussion, is that the per-POT cost should go up as POT increases, rather than being a straight line relationship.  I do also recognize that a lot of people don't want to GM with exponential functions, so maybe there is not a single one size fits all campaigns answer.

I think I priced the potions too high -though the POT was not specified and adjusting that would bring my prices in line.

 

Notwithstanding the "Cost of healing potions in New Pavis' thread from 1999, I am curious whether anyone has a formula or model for the cost and price of potions in Runequeest Glorantha.

That previous thread was, as the OP requested, centered on RQ2.  And as mentioned there, the cost of potions in the RQ2 rules was both ambiguous and inflated by the magical rewards in RQ2.

But RQG  announces deflation.  And does not (subject to whatever is in to the forthcoming gods book or the GM book) have any formula for price of potions or alchemy.

Now, this past week when I GM'd a transaction in Alone - where there is an Apothecaries' guild - I sort of punted the answer after re- reading the RQ2 section (Chap. VI as i recall).  But I would like a better and more methodical approach if you have one to suggest.

It's not sufficient to quote the RQ2 answer of a multiplier on the cost of ingredients - because what is the cost of ingredients?  I can chase my tail on   that forever, or take the 50L per POT 'temple' cost:  p.175 under Knowledge Skills, says :the temples" have ingredients at a cost of 50L per point of potency.

To me the most likely source of ingredients is someone with Plant Lore finding the appropriate seeds, stems, etc. (in accord with the Chalana Arroy section in Cults of Prax)  and then applying both skills and magic to refine and stabilize them.  That done, what you have is a "potion", even if it is a pill or salve or a biscuit.

What;s the productivity of the Plant Lore skill?

What's the productivity of the apothecary skill, presumably Alchemy?  Alchemy is given a 160L standard of living on p.70 under "scribe") and on p.139 it is gives a "skill or ability time: of "1 hour to many days".  [That's a wide range ... how long is a piece of rope?]

  An alchemical skill roll allows production - subject to specials and fumbles. 

OK, so let's say our party includes someone with high Plant lore skill and someone with high Alchemy skill. 

• How many units of healing plants will the first person find per day?   I think i might extract that from the Red Book of Magic p.72, though it depends on terrain and season.  I can do an average .... but let's assume that all cool herbalists hunt the forests and get 5 opportunities a day.  With a pro skill level that mean about 4 successes.  Now how many POT units is that?  I can average the results of the Seasonal Potency table - and i get an average of 3.06, counting the "-" results as zeroes.  So, about 12 POT units per day for a pro herbalist.
• Now how many hours or days of work does the alchemist have to do to convert 5 POT of healing plant seeds into a 5 POT potion? If I have a rationale for that then i may be able to estimate the selling price of such a potion.  Does it matter if the potion is 1 POT or 12 POT?  Do five 1-POT units of raw herbs work the same as one 5-POT unit? 
• How about the cost of spellcasting to do the stablization of the raw herbs?   Preserve herbs,  good for "one day’s find of healing plants for one person."   a 1-point spirit magic spell just as it was in RQ2.  It would seem from the last line of the p.72 text that if you want the potion to last more than a week you have to have Preserved herbs.     Refine Medicine is in the Red book of magic as a 1 point rune spell.  As in RQs, it allows modifying and enhancing the herbs; but doesn't seem absolutely necessary to production.

What's your rationale for assigning productivity to the alchemist, or for a price or value to the potion traded for in Alone?  Or the result  if your adventurers decide to go into the business and earn their 160L standard of living?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Any more on Alone since 2019? 

I found a little skimpy bit of material in The Coming Storm - much less than i see above here.

I ask because I'm planning a game which will take the party into Alone, though not to stay.

 

 

 

As written, "most' are cowards. 

There is a problem with their being fierce warriors:  They don't have the SIZ or ST to mix it up in melee on land.  Negative hit bonus and high strike rank.

However your non-typical Humakti duck might just slice and dice you.

So folks who assume that of ALL ducks and proceed to bully them are playing Russian Roulette.

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, soltakss said:

I am waiting for the proof copy to drop in my doorstep. Once it does, and I have checked it, we should be good to go. 

Maybe in the next couple of weeks, if I don't need to make any changes.

Great news! Sold.

So now that it is an Electrum best seller, is there a prospect of going Print On Demand?

On 5/28/2021 at 11:05 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1) What Nick said, which is "What they said".  Don't sweat it.  And, unless you build a big family tree, you only need two names, for a parent and one grandparent.

2) How about using your character's name?  Many names get reused in families.  My character is named after her famous grandmother.

Or how about modifynig your character's name, with an added syllable suffix.  Sort of like "junior" or 'senior"?

Besides that, in these forums I recently found Jeff's write-up on Orlanthi names- dated Feb. 11, 2020.  Link: 

 

 

I would think the restriction really begins at initiate level: 

RQG p.274 "Initiation into a cult is a serious step, for individuals thereby pledge themselves to the focus of a single divine entity.  Unlike lay members, who have association with other cults, initiates may partake only of rituals in their own cult and its associated and friendly cults."

So  are Orlanth and Elmal friendly?  That's a big N If Elmal is Yelmalio, as people have discussed, [https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13636-some-questions-about-the-lismelder-and-yelmalioelmal/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-212855 But Elmal isn't even mentioned as a cult in the canon printed material.  Nor in RQG.   We all await the new Gods book.

 

So Your Glorantha Has Already Varied when these players initiated with the second god - that's your right -  but there will be no 'correct' answer except the answer you want.

Interestingly enough I do not find an explicit rule in RQG saying that an adventurer can't be a priest of two cults.  If i am wrong I would appreciate a page and paragraph reference, because it's begun to bother me.  But I do see the 90%-of-time rule as an obstacle.  I can see squeezing in an Orlanth-Lhankhor Mhy priest if the local LM shrine is in the Orlanth temple, it's an associated cult after all, there may be only one priest in a small temple, and in a larger temple everyone may appreciate the ability to switch-hit and teach LM spells, so i can see that the cult business would overlap.  But otherwise I can't see owing 180% of time and there is something unsatisfying about a second cult taking 9% (90% of the adventurer's remaining 10% after giving 90% to the primary cult.)   Maybe that's just me.  It would make more sense to me to say the adventurer's status in a second cult won't go higher than initiate or maybe god-talker.

As I already wrote, Your Glorantha Has Already Varied.

 

 

 

I take it not much more then,  Except that i did re-read The Coming Storm, and found some more material on the Culbrea tribe:

Fox Hollow, town  in the Lorthing Valley (visited by the Crimson Bat in 1619 according to SC) (seat of the Culbrea king, TCs p.63; p.568 says Ranulf turn-Tail is king at this time)) (p.93, Ranulf’s hall is rich the lunars keep him in power) (Thane Orlmarl the charioteer may or may not be here p.97 TCS, often in exile)

Lorthing Valley described p.68 TCS, “heart of the Culbrea tribe”, Barlamani clan in N,; Culbri clan in fox hollow) (Two-pine clan is far n clan, next to the cinsina)

The Lorthing Valley (Dwarf Hill is at the N end, described in SC pp.224-227)

 

p.70 of TCS, Lorthing valley – rich land is the heart of the Culbrea tribe.  The Barlarnani clan cultivates the northern end of the valley wGreenhaft (is the name of a Culbrea clan, TCs p.11, not more detail) while the Culbri clan, centered on Fox Hollow, lives in the south.. 

But I note that the TCS p.89 map's clan boundaries do not seem to match some of the written descriptions:  Fox hollow shows as in the Fox clan, which is not described.

Looks to me as if it might be time to re-publish "Dorastor, Land of Doom" as a Runequest Classic.

Why?  isn't it a PC-killer, likely to grind up Rune levels and spit them out?

So i hear ... and my players would never go there...  but Amazon has it posted for $790!    https://www.amazon.com/Dorastor-Land-of-Doom-Runequest/dp/1560380748/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Dorastor%2C+land+of+doom&qid=1621742022&sr=8-1

You could cut that price in half and still break even pretty quickly if it sold -  or to 1/20th  as a PDF!

 

 

Has anyone written anything about the Kheldon and Culbrea tribes and the area SE and E of Boldhome, pre-Dragonrise?  Including Heroquest material, because that seems to be where this area has gotten the little love it has??

I have been looking at the map p.9 of The Coming Storm (TCS): Kheldon has the Sambari to the west, Boldhome at its NW corner, Culbrea to the north. Dundealos to the south. No detail.

And at p.6 of Sartar Companion (SC) which is at a smaller scale - and most of the features in that area of this map are evidently not significant enough to be indexed in Guide to Glorantha.

What's at:

Broadview Inn

Goodfork (town on the Kings's Road)

Sacred Cap

Moss hill

Hill of the winds

Greenhaft (is the name of a Culbrea clan, TCs p.11, no more detail there)

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hm, have had an interesting series of gremlins here in the BRP realms of late. This is one of the latest... Wassup, sir @Trifletraxor? I have seen a few variations of this over the past couple of weeks and today for the first time, had a corroboration of this from Joerg. Time to call the Mostali formen in for a talking to?

I've been seeing it too.  i was wondering whether the problem was my own machine, or my ISP, but you've taken a load off my mind, Bill the Barbarian.

Nick Brooke, thanks for the link to the Masters thesis.  I am reading it now -

i also note that Rome was Iron Age, and the little I have read about Bronze Age economics indicates it was less monetized:   more temple, village, and clan based, more emphasis on trade in favors than trade for cash. 

Even though the origin of banking is Bronze Age, and the origin of long distance trade is Stone Age.

So when I think about Gloranthan economics, although I may calculate in money, I try to remember that money is a New Thing, and that giving a feast or a luxury or any other benefit to an individual or to the community may be

- a display of, or in pursuit of, or maintenance of, social rank, or

-a move to accumulate obligations, which may be called on later,

and a lot of consumption may move through those channels rather than for cash. 

Remember, people kill and die for social rank, it's a Big Thing now, or a century ago, or ten thousand years ago; or on Glorantha.

Now how to role-play that out ..... that's the challenge.

On 5/19/2021 at 7:28 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Sorry to hear it; that's an understandable first reaction. If you pick up just one piece of community content, make it Six Seasons in Sartar, by Andrew Logan Montgomery. The tricks he teaches you about statting-up NPCs (and, indeed, why you don't usually need to bother) will be a life-saver. ............ The belief that every NPC has to be "simulated" in as much detail as if they were a player character is a horribly common fallacy...)

And I'm still learning to use those tricks, thank you Nick Brooke and Andrew L. Montgomery!   Working in that direction,  I drafted up this NPC worksheet, which may be handy -  feel free to use or improve it.  (attached PDF)

short NPC sheet PDF2.pdf

Market fees:  The Travels of Biturian Varosh reflects that a merchant (or anyone else) selling in an organized market must pay a fee for the privilege.

(Cults of Prax p.39, "Having viewed the market, I went to its High Priest and bought a booth site. He grumbled about my payment with furs, but I didn't get to choose my location either. "  and p.59 " merely demanding that he fulfill his traders' obligation and sell me a place upon which to display my goods. He did what he had to do.  He gave me the worst spot, a soggy plot near the latrines.")

GMs: Do you have a merchant(s) in your campaign?  if so, do you set that market fee, and if so how?  Or do you gloss over it?

Biturian appears to have paid a fee - but no indication of what it actually was.

It seems to me that such a fee is how the Issaries or Etyries temple / market is kept up: Someone probably has to pay for casting  the Market rune spell - and at a fixed market / temple in a city, it's probably income for the priest who runs the market.

Do you run it per-site, so many square meters?  Does Biturian the rich merchant pay the same as a farmer selling carrots?

 

 

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Perhaps another (weak, admittedly) reasoning by analogy - if you run a farm, you owe 20% of income to Orlanth & Ernalda (assuming Dragon Pass Orlanthi). Perhaps 20% of income to the City God and city leadership (probably much the same thing) in the case of of commercial housing? This would be a combination of general city tax and the cost of the land, but maybe one can be sorted out from the other in some other way?

Or maybe that 20% doesn't have to be sorted out, the city leadership being essentially the same as leadership of the city god cult.  The city also gets other revenue, likely taxing at the gate and probably form the market.  Yes, that's a good idea, assuming 20% of the rent goes off the top  in tithes -

Which means that to make a net 60L a year you need a gross 75L in rental income.  So at 10% return a landlord needs about 750L worth of building(s).

if you're considering structure - you  might think about adding a column for King's Highway.  As in p.92 of the Heroquest book Sartar Companion.

(Obviously that book applies to the pre-Dragonrise time it's written for, as "Lunar patrol" should not be encountered in 1626 and later -)

 

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Perhaps as a guesstimate through analogy then, in order to make a Free standard of living as a landlord, you would need housing worth 500L to 1000L?

That makes sense to me, though it doesn't deal with the question of what the landlord may owe in order to have use of the land that the housing stands on.  This does suggest that a successful adventurer might invest in an apartment building.  That's a useful thought, Akhorahil. 

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for me, don't use any % rate of return:

you want a tenant to organize your farm:

1) get the land's right

2) build the house for your tenants (more expensive it is, better is your tenant = manage household / farm / loyalty to the pc )

3) use the rules = p 423 = 40L / year

MM, no, I was asking about just a house, not a farm.  The farm would seem to be a different and more restricted case, as it assumes the adventurer is a farmer. 

I'm using my copy tonight -  it's well worth it- but Errata: 

Where it says "Sakkars (RQB p. 143):" on p.9 of the PDF, that doesn't match RQB:  Sakkars might better be labeled saber-toothed cats, and that is on p.158.

It also says on the same page, "Pig dog (RQB p. 143)" but p.143 is crocodiles and deer, while pig dog is on p.152 of RQB.

 

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

.......  I would estimate that a decent sized wooden house with a stone chimney should cost about 200L or 10 head of cattle, using locally sourced materials and nothing fancy.  This doesn't include other important buildings like barns or wells or fences, just the basic unfurnished house.

So the modest  house, - maybe not so modest because it has a chimney, which is an innovation  - AFTER acquiring the right to build on the land, costs about 200L to construct.

Then if capital gets a 10% rate of return it should rent for 20L per year.  If the tenant handles maintenance.  Plus whatever the land tenure cost is?