Jape_Vicho

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

My dumb theory is that we can discuss this stuff intelligently.

Content warning: this post considers rape as an allegory for abusive imperialism. (Don't ever trivialise rape, kiddies! Don't play games with it, and never abuse your players by forcing it on them and/or their supporting cast of NPCs, while you snicker and frot yourself behind a screen, you monster)

King of Sartar is a deep and complex book. There's a natural temptation to treat it as if it's nothing more a heap of unpublished manuscripts from the eighties that Greg shovelled into one paperback, using the wafer-thin excuse of "multiple contradictory sources" to get away without revising anything. But the more you study it, the more it pays off (cf. my seminal article Triumph of the Lunar Cosmos, a close textual reading of the climax of Argrath's Saga).

Here's a thought that struck me fairly recently re: the obviously and entirely problematic Thed myth on p.66 (of the current edition), The Greater Darkness, in which a mistreated goddess first elects to become the Goddess of Rape, before going on to literally destroy the world.

Should we see Argrath as following in Thed's cloven hoofprints?

He and his people have been cruelly wronged and mistreated by the Lunars, sure. But in his quest for justice (and revenge), he becomes a world-breaker, making things immeasurably worse, and inflicting on others the worst atrocities that he and his people suffered.

This reading is, frankly, the best justification I have yet seen for the inclusion of that odd, discordant Thed myth in King of Sartar. And whether or not that was the author’s intent, the parallels are striking.

(Incidentally, re-reading Ron Edwards’ article Goddess of Rape 17 years later (see also his follow-up comments, here), it now strikes me that Thed isn't the only goddess who manifests in the world as a bleeding wound and makes possible the transition to a better world to come).

I just wanted to bookmark that thought.

But after Ragnaglar assaults Thed, she actively collaborates with him and Manillia to create Wakboth, how wolud that fit? I know his final act ultimately benefits the lunar path, but does Argrath collaborate with some lunar power?

Also Ragnaglar, if you follow the Heortling myth, is broken in a similar way to Thed, only by other gods. I have always thinked that tale was a representation of how the gods, and not only the chaos ones, all of them, were at fault for the great darkness. Is Argrath also a victim of the Gods War?

28 minutes ago, ffilz said:

Yea, I seem to remember an early Q&A about Chalana Arroy and chaos and they weren't even allowed to attack chaos creatures. Yea, Advice from Rurik in Wyrms Footnotes #13. An exception is made for undead with the note that very orthodox Chalana Arroy adherents might not even take up arms against undead.

Isn't there a story obout CA stopping Urox from killing a Chaos deity in KoDP? 

For anyone interested, yesterday we finished the character creation, te group ended up being: 

-An Odayla huntsman and a Chalana Arroy healer who are twins and children of the last thane of Apple Lane. When lunars came to kill Gringle and their father they escaped and were chased but were saved by the next character. 

-A humakti Durulz that grew up in a humakti temple in Lismelder lands after his whole community was slain by sartarites who wanted to profit from the duck hunt. He can't use shields, partake in ambushes or eat vegetables, but he can sense undeads and has a blessed sword that does double damage. When he saved the twins he decided to join them and travel to hendrikiland to join Broyan's army. 

-A Kitori Uzko insect herder that rides a giant praying mantis. He was herding insects with his pack near the footprint when they were attacked and massacred by a horde of scorpion-men. The group found him and his mantis as the last survivors and badly wounded, the CA healer brought them to health and they became friends.

After that they sticked together through the great winter and after the battle of Auroch Hills they followed broyan to Esrolia, where they fought in the siege of Notchet and in Pennel Ford. They then remained in hendrikiland with Leika until the Dragonrise. Now they have decided to return together to Apple Lane. 

The Uzko almost was a ZorakZorani, but we backed up when we realized that they are fond of ritually gang beating lone humakti to death and that they have to swear never to work with Orlanth and Humakt worshippers when they reach Death Lord status, thus he couldn't be able to get along with the odaylan either. 

I'm also worried that the Odayla cult has very few spells, I'm guessing it's because it's a weaker cult, subservient to his father's, so I'll probably advise the player to initiate in Orlanth too as the campaign progresses. 

36 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

And his is a slower, more pernicious form of chaos, rooted in deep self-loathing.

!i!

Probably the next coming of the Devil that Argrath talked about, postmodernism. 

Bojack horseman is actually just a Broo sitcom. 

On 10/6/2020 at 9:14 PM, g33k said:

Also, there's a fair potential for CA characters to piss off other players:  don't forget how hardcore CA's get about those under their protection.  Many groups get more than a bit salty when a CA goes to heal the Other Side *again,* and won't ever just let you do the "convenient" thing (an execution, or stripping all their gear and leaving them in the wilderness in civvy clothes + zero gear, or etc... ) .   Make sure your entire group of *PLAYERS* is down with playing the downside of CA, not just the one player!  Session-Zero the hell out of this one!

One of the other characters will most likely be a ZorakZorani Uzko, so he'll most definitely be pissed off at her most of the time, but when are ZorakZorani not pissed off? Jokes aside, that relation might be dangerous, and both players will be informed tomorrow, when they will be making the PCs, but it also would let me explore the bizarre relation between Zorak Zoran and her sister Xiola Umbar.

Thank you all, I really like the idea of @Akhôrahil of "I think you should only play Humakti or CA if you want to lean into the special restrictions", that's the spot, and will be using it with my players to make sure they feel perfectly comfortable with what they choose.

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This strikes me as highly likely even under a less strict interpretation. Humakt calls followers, rather than them being raised into the cult.

Also humakti tend to either die young or become crazy fanatics like the famous unnamed humakti.

Arkat claimed to be the son of Humakt when Harmast drag him from hell but knowing him it was probably one of his many lies. 

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

 

Yep, that's my take on it too. The important point is that, like many things in Glorantha, there's not just one version or interpretation. The Death Rune for example has many facets and being strongly aligned with it doesn't necessarily mean one unique thing. It could mean, among other possibilities:

• That Death is necessary and pure, and you have an important responsibility to wield it justly and rightly. That's the Humakt view on Death, and not only do you seek a lonely and ascetic lifestyle to emulate your God, you also do it to be as impartial as possible and use Death in a justified way.
• That Death is a means to an end, not an end it itself. It's a tool to be used in lots of different ways in the pursuit of more important goals, like, say, getting rid of Chaos. That's the Zorak Zoran way. You can use Death to kill people, and you can use Death to raise people back up and keep fighting.
• That Death is part of the great cycle of the world, and goes hand in hand with Life. That's the Waha philosophy. While your Death Rune affinity sets you apart from the other people in the clan, you probably have a deeper understanding than most of everybody's place, and a complementary understanding of Fertility.

That's probably why the rules mention that the Death Rune "may" negatively affect someone's fertility (lowercase "f"). If would apply the negative modifier to a Humakti, but not to a Waha cultist, for instance.

Makes sense, maybe I was being too much Humaktcentric. There are many other cults that interpret their runes differently, CA Harmony if different from Foundchild's (peace vs community), or Yelmalio and Elmal Truth (honor vs mysticism). Maybe the important part is the cult you join, as you join and climb the ladder of the cult, you are progressively transformed into an avatar of the God. You first have to artificially emulate the god (as a gorite, don't have children or at least not raise them) but at the end you end up embodying the destructive and barren earth so perfectly that you are not longer able to give birth. That's kinda transhumanist actually. 

53 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Orlanth is quite fertile, even if he doesn't have the Rune, and he has some Heroquests relating to Fertility.

That is true, but I think an explicit fertility rune in a cult makes things clearer and can make a difference. Also Orlanth is so mythically prolific that you can easily link him with almost any rune. 

39 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I can see Humakt as glum, asexual, ascetic.  Babs Gor as well.

But Storm Bull is also a Death cult, and the primary image one has of a Bull is, well, a large member, whose purpose is to make many babies.  Plus Storm Khans are explicitly allowed to marry and have many concubines.

That's why in my Glorantha Urox is Disorder Air Beast. It's just a personal thing. 

Also, in relation with this, and if you don't mind the side-question, what's the deal with Zorak Zoran Death rune? He and his cultists are definetly killers, and good ones at that, but they also reanimate the dead, which should be against the Death rune(?. 

46 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

depends on gm (and their mistake)

I consider that what player choices must be followed. I don't force them to act when the character does, to sing when the character sing but if tgeychoose to be strong in a rune or a passion, at least a roll against it must be successfull if they decide to move in another way. And if they succeed against their passion / rune, they lost a portion of this passion / rune.

But I think the Death - Fertility rune pair has kind of a problem and is easily misunderstood. Even though there are loads of death rune linked goddesses, for a number of factors (most rooted in our gender-binary thought) people link Death with male and Fertility with female, even though they aren't that simple in reality. 

For exemple, usually a player who wants to be a typical fighter will be attracted to putting points in Death, death is a soldier's job isn't it? But then won't exactly follow what Death should affect one's personality. 

Having a male warrior god linked with the Fertility rune in the books would make this clearer to players, that's one of the reasons I'm anxiously waiting for the Lodril write-up in Gods and Goddesses of Glorantha. 

One of my players has stated his intent of making a Chalana Arroy cultuist for a campaign. After giving some thought to the restrictions listed in the core rulebook (page 290) and the fact that this person is new to Glorantha, I'm worried he might be underwhelmed and bored because his character will not be able no particepate in any combat (they can attack, if under desperate conditions, non-sapient species, and ofc chaos beings, but given that that don't have any offensive magic and probably won't have high combat stats, I don't think that can go well). 

Do any of you have any feedback for CA cultists (that you have played, played alongside, or mastered for)? What I'm seeking to know precisely is, is combat something that takes you out completely from the fun, or are your other abilities able to make up for it and let you have a different yet entertaining experience? 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Well, the Argan Argar Atlas is freely available for the Jonstown Compendium and its maps can be used for Jonstown Compendium supplements.

So, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a map made by stitching together the maps of the Argan Argar Atlas could be sold under the Jonstown Compendium. There are maps sold under the Jonstown Compendium, so it is probably possible, maybe.

In my case I meant sharing it here on the forum, I don't think my work meets the quality it would need to be published on the Jonstown Compendium. 

What a coincidence, I have been piecing a full map of Genertela from the Argan Argar Atlas these days too, in the intent of making a 1625 political map. Tedious work for sure, and harder than it seems. I'm not done yet, once I am, I intended to share it, but given your second comment I might have to look up if that wouldn't be against the rules.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Lunar Youth who have to report and stop treason and sedition among the teeming masses of the insulae of Glamour? 

Okay, maybe not...

A group of Pelorian street urchins looks like it has potential IMO. 

Also IIRC malkioni zzaburi are chosen when they are children, younger than 6 I think, so if they like Harry Potter, a kind of magic school adventure in Seshnela can be quite cool. They could have some basic knowledge of sorcery and acquire more as the campaign progresses. 

If I'm not mistaken, hot or temperate was the way to go with beer until very recently, and it was mixed with butter and eggs at least in the middle ages. 

In my Glorantha, beer and wine are surely warm in Sartar, which is objectively horrendous (especially here in Spain), which adds to the particularity of the clear wine from Clearwine, as though it's actually warm, it still feels cold to the mouth, making it extremely better. Also lunars drink their alcohol cold, just to show off the portents of Civilization to my players (one of them mentioned it jokingly and I instantly added it to my canon). 

(Just realized that this isn't exactly the topic due to a translation error, in spanish we usually use the same word (caliente) when we refer to hot and warm drinks, but oh well) 

7 hours ago, davecake said:

(though a few might suspect rebellion, and some even investigate it, and probably find it, that’s cool story stuff not the general status quo). 

Some imperial lunar acolytes officials have to investigate a possible outbreak of chaos orlanth heresy in a hive city Aggarite village, seems interesting!

The blue guy in the cover is not Orlanth but Broyan leading the Army of Dead Heroes in Dantolfol (the same way that Jar-Eel becomes Sedenya in certain moments in PoS). All our beloved pre-gen adventurers have thus died in one of their numerous adventures, probably by a critical hit to the head.

Those are so wonderful, as all her drawings are.

What it's funny it's that I have been thinking for quite some time to comission her the exact same thing for my players!

The lunar conquest of southern Peloria brought tens of thousands of olranthi into the folds of the Empire, a people whom one of their two major cults was forbidden. I get that the orlanth ban can't be a 100% effective, and that in the Provinces there must be thousands who secretly still worship him, but as it is stated in the Guide, most people have dropped his cult and now follow the one of Barntar, or other earth-based deities.

Also, even if lightbringer worship isn't forbidden altogether, the Seven Mothers cult offers almost identical (some would dare say plagiarized) deities whose worship definetly would make your life easier now (Issaries - Etyries, Humakt - Yanafal Tarnils, Lankor Mhy - Irrippi Ontor, and so on), as that would make that hateful dara happan tax collector friendlier to you, and probably be the only way you can climb in the social rank. 

How do you think the spirits of reprisal act in those scenarios? Also, what is the human side of the mass conversions issued by the lunar empire?

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- but also language : hown many of them can speak sartarite and or trade talk ? with a chance to be understood and to understand  (10% is not enough to be confident) the indigenous. They must all get a 40-50% in a common language for the group too

I will definetly take that advice and make all have minimun 50% heortling (with a reason as to how). When I ran The broken tower months ago one of the PCs was Vostor, and his 10% heortling certainly made things uncorfortable and difficult.

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

May I suggest that at least one pc is sartarite (orlanth with orate or issaries) and become the official leader (at least when they talk with them)

[Spoilers for The thane of Apple Lane]

As the Gamemaster Adventures book advices, I will have them make at least an initiate of orlanth or an associated cult for him/her to be the thane and an ernalda or associated initiate. 

13 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

You must have missed my Duck Merchant.

I certainly did, and after reading some lines about ducks in The duel at Dangerford, it's even funnier.

I will definetly make a session 0 and we will work together to create a cool and logical backstory for the group.

If I understood correctly, this is how it works. 

First, you roll againt each other, that means that both the player and the spirit roll their spirit combat skill at the same time, it's not like a melee combat, where one hits, the other parrys, etc., but more like if both were pushing a boulder against the other.

If they both fail, nothing happens, next turn. If one succeeds and the other fails, the one that succeeds does spirit damage to the loser. If both succeed, you check the degree of success, if one achieved one or more degrees of success than the other (normal success vs special or crit), then he makes spirit damage. If both roll the same degree, then it gets boggy as the rules of Resolving Spirit Combat (Page 368) are kind of ambiguous. My interpretation is that if the tie is between two normal or special successes, then nothing happens, as if they both failed, HOWEVER, if they both crit, they both do damage to the other. 

On 9/16/2020 at 11:21 PM, Eff said:

My thought is that Jar-eel's approach to embodying the concept of Harmony/Harana Ilor/the celestial harp is what makes her the living incarnation of the Red Goddess- she devotes so much of her existence to selfless behavior Sedenya can speak through her nearly freely because there's not much self to mask things. 

Of course, station 4 on the Sedenya train is Rashorana- illuminated wisdom, but the Moon disappears from the world for a bit. That seems alarmingly apropos. 

Do you think the other 3 inspirations are also connected to their respective moon phases? 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I'm guessing that you have never been there. Summer in southern Russia regularly tops 40C or 100F, the steppes can be higher. And the steppes are covered in flies, or they were when I went to Sol Iletsk the first time, not so much the second time though. 

Worse than bullstitches! 

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

If I understand this correctly, you have a bunch of characters that were created for and played through Six Seasons in Sartar, and you want to find a plausible way to move them over to the Gamemaster Adventures?

No, no, I ran SSS with a group of players (whose characters were all heortling children, as I put that as mandatory), we finished it a week ago, and for now, we put that saga of story and characters on hold, for an undecided amount of time, for various reasons. 

Now, the same group and I are going to start (probably in october as I still have a lot of reading to do) a campaign that amalgamate the gamemaster adventures, and the other 2 adventure books for RQG that are now released, in which the players are going to create brand new characters. As some players have took a liking to some weird races (baboons and durulz) I'm scared that the party would look rather "stupid" or untrustworthy to the sartarites they will communicate with most of the time.

It's funny btw how none of you have mentioned to have had any non-human in the party, looks like I have a group with strange tastes. 

Reading the adventures for RQG this subject came to mind. Looking at the characters that appear, the ones that are described as "so old that there are only a handful of people of this age in all Dragon Pass" have around the age of 70. Only very magically powerful people are said to live more than that (that is of course, if they don't partake in one of those Hon-Eel's "death by snu-snu" ceremonies. I don't blame them, I would too.), and IIRC, none live for more that 2 centuries. 

So, we could say that the average lifespan of a human in Glorantha is about 60sh, exceptionally some very healthy people can get to their 70s, and magically it can be extended to a hundred and some more. 

This also would explain why the "experienced" npcs are in their 30s, what would be like the middle of a glorantha life, and war veterans, chiefs and generals don't usually have more than 50.

That would make the Uz have like 20-30 more years of lifespan than humans, which puzzles me really as they have a life that isn't precisely safe and quiet. 

Or perhaps I'm completely wrong.