Just got BRP (the big book) S&S Q's

[bighara]

So I just picked up the BRP pdf and printed it out. I've been reading through a bunch of the options and I'm pretty impressed overall. My goal is to run a Swords & Sorcery style fantasy game (like a lot of other folks here it seems! ). I've started working through the optional rules list and things like that, trying to decide what to include in my game. This is where I'm at so far. I'd appreciate any feedback:

1. 2d6+6 for all scores, players arrange results.
   
2. No non-human characters.
   
3. Cultural backgrounds apply.
   
4. I’m not sure about the EDU score. It’s a fairly primitive world, but it may be the best mechanic for general knowledge.
   
5. Haven’t decided about skill point totals or occupations.
   
6. Hit Points by location. I like the granularity, but I don’t want to keep adding to the dice rolling.
   
7. Fatigue points. I may use a simple ENC & Fatigue mechanic. Again, I don’t want to bog things down too much.
   
8. SAN. Definitely in. It’s not a horror campaign, but if monsters are to be truly “monstrous,” then there needs to be that element of fear and terror, etc.
   
9. Allegiance: Instead of Law v. Chaos, etc. I’m thinking of using the mechanic as a sort of “Corruption” score. As a character deals with things like demonic forces, he risks his soul.
   
10. Powers: Sorcery
    
11. Initiative: DEX (or INT) + 1d10. Powers go off in init order. A sorcerer that chooses to use INT for his initiative is assumed to be starting a spell ad can't "switch to DEX" in mid-round. If he decides to stop casting or is interrupted, he loses the spell and POW.
    
12. Attacks and parries can be over 100% and players can make multiple attacks by splitting their attack %. Attack and Parry are the same skill though.
    
13. I’m thinking of allowing Dying Blows.
    

I'm also thinking of grouping some of the weapon skills together. Something like this:

• Axe (Hand, Battle, Great, Woodsman)
  
• Bow (Self, Long)
  
• Blowgun
  
• Blunts (Mace, Club, Staff, Morning Star, Hammer)
  
• Crossbow
  
• Dagger (includes Knife)
  
• Hand (Cestus, Claw, etc.)
  
• Unarmed (Fist, Grapple, Kick, Head Butt)
  
• Improvised (thrown rock, torch, etc.)
  
• Polearm (Halberd, Pike, etc.)
  
• Spear (1 or 2 handed, includes Trident)
  
• Sword (1 or 2 handed. Includes scimitars, sabers, short, broad, bastard, and great swords)
  
• Staff (Short or Quarter)
  
• Thrown (Axes, Clubs, Daggers, Knifes, Spears, Slings, etc.)
  
• Net/Lasso
  
• Whip
  

[vagabond]

Juts some thoughts:

Find an old copy of Stormbringer or Elric!, and maybe get Mongoose's Elric.

Some good ideas in those, especially the Stormbringer 1E through 4E use

of demon summoning as the primary magic source. Also, Mongoose's Elric

has some great rules for essentially bartering your soul for magic.

As far as specific items, I agree with most of your list.

6) Hit locations. If you do not like the extra bookkeeping, use the general

HP plus random armor values, and use the major wounds. This was used in

Stormbringer/Elric!. You also might want to use the Heroic HP of CON + SIZ

as opposed to the average of the two. Or, if that is too many HP, use the

old Stormbringer rule of HP = CON + 1 HP for each SIZ over 12, or - 1 HP

for each SIZ under 9.

9) Allegiance - yes, create a Corruption mechanic. I'll have to find my rules

with regards to that. Try to tie it in with SAN - the more corrupt, the bigger

the chance of going insane.

Ian

[bighara]

I have Stormbringer 1e and Elric!. I've been looking at those as well. I'll have to look over the "soul bartering" aspect of magic there.

For a Corruption/SAN correlation. I like the idea. I'll have to think about how to do that. Offhand, I'm wondering if Corruption could be like a "Cthulhu Mythos" skill that reduces your maximum SAN. Maybe something like 100-Corruption=Max. SAN? Might need to come up with a cooler name than "Corruption" though.

Edited June 26, 2009 by bighara
spelling

[Thalaba]

This sounds quite good. My only comments are minor.

I would skip EDU for S&S. I'm thinking all you need is a few lore skills - World Lore for geography and nature, Legend Lore for history and artifacts, and Demon Lore for demons. That's probably all you need.

I'd reduce the weapons even further. I'd put Polearm and Spear together, Net/Lasso/Whip go together into a category called Gladitorial Weapons or Slaver's Weapons (depending on your flavour), Thrown rock under Thrown, and maybe Hand and Improvised together in Brawl or throw them into the gladitorial weapons category.

And I'll second Vagabond's comments. Great start!

Thalaba

[bighara]

This sounds quite good. My only comments are minor.

I would skip EDU for S&S. I'm thinking all you need is a few lore skills - World Lore for geography and nature, Legend Lore for history and artifacts, and Demon Lore for demons. That's probably all you need.

I'd reduce the weapons even further. I'd put Polearm and Spear together, Net/Lasso/Whip go together into a category called Gladitorial Weapons or Slaver's Weapons (depending on your flavour), Thrown rock under Thrown, and maybe Hand and Improvised together in Brawl or throw them into the gladitorial weapons category.

And I'll second Vagabond's comments. Great start!

Thalaba

Hmm, something like:

Weapon Skills

• Axe (Hand, Battle, Great, Woodsman)
  
• Blowgun
  
• Blunt (Mace, Club, Staff, Morning Star, Hammer)
  
• Bow (Self, Long)
  
• Brawl (Fist, Grapple, Kick, Head Butt, Improvised Weapons, Cestus/Claw)
  
• Crossbow
  
• Dagger (includes Knife)
  
• Flexible Non-Lethal (Net/Lasso/Whip)
  
• Long Weapon (Spears, Trident, Halberd, Pike, etc.)
  
• Shield (+10% Parry bonus)
  
• Sword (1 or 2 handed. Includes Scimitars, Sabers, Short, Broad, Bastard, and Great Swords)
  
• Thrown (Axes, Clubs, Daggers, Knifes, Spears, Slings, etc.)
  

?

[vagabond]

I have Stormbringer 1e and Elric!. I've been looking at those as well. I'll have to look over the "soul bartering" aspect of magic there.

For a Corruption/SAN correlation. I like the idea. I'll have to think about how to do that. Offhand, I'm wondering if Corruption could be like a "Cthulhu Mythos" skill that reduces your maximum SAN. Maybe something like 100-Corruption=Max. SAN? Might need to come up with a cooler name than "Corruption" though.

Really quickly, Mongoose Elric allows one to "sacrifice" POW to an Elemental

Lord, Beastlord, of Lords of Chaos/Law - dragons too, but I don't recall demons

specifically. Anyway, this POW is held in reserve so to speak, and is a pact.

Using the POW/SAN relationship from CoC, one could say that the more POW

bartered to a demon/higher lord definitely has an impact on one's SAN

-V

[bighara]

Really quickly, Mongoose Elric allows one to "sacrifice" POW to an Elemental

Lord, Beastlord, of Lords of Chaos/Law - dragons too, but I don't recall demons

specifically. Anyway, this POW is held in reserve so to speak, and is a pact.

Using the POW/SAN relationship from CoC, one could say that the more POW

bartered to a demon/higher lord definitely has an impact on one's SAN

-V

So maybe the "pact POW" ups the "Allegiance" with corruption? Getting the POW back later (if this is even possible) wouldn't diminish your corruption. Just because the deal with the demon is completed, doesn't mean you didn't ever enter into it. So over time multiple pacts, even if just for a service and temporary, can increase your "COR" and reduce your Max SAN.

Obviously if Max SAN = 100-COR, then your PC is out of the game (hopelessly nutso). Maybe a different ratio? 100- (COR/2)? That way you could be utterly corrupt but still a PC? I'm thinking something like Apotheosis if/when 100 COR is reached. e.g. A demon lord appears and makes a bargain with you; You gain a chaotic feature; You become part-demon, etc.

[vagabond]

So maybe the "pact POW" ups the "Allegiance" with corruption? Getting the POW back later (if this is even possible) wouldn't diminish your corruption. Just because the deal with the demon is completed, doesn't mean you didn't ever enter into it. So over time multiple pacts, even if just for a service and temporary, can increase your "COR" and reduce your Max SAN.

Obviously if Max SAN = 100-COR, then your PC is out of the game (hopelessly nutso). Maybe a different ratio? 100- (COR/2)? That way you could be utterly corrupt but still a PC? I'm thinking something like Apotheosis if/when 100 COR is reached. e.g. A demon lord appears and makes a bargain with you; You gain a chaotic feature; You become part-demon, etc.

Hmm, sounds pretty good. I had something similar written up on a scrap of

paper somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Also, and since I did thins with regards to the Elric saga, there should be a method to decrease Corruption. Not

all power wielding personalities were completely wacko. Myshella for example. Maybe some sort of atonement

process can be used to decrease Corruption and return some SAN.

(I think I should just drop the "-V" sig ... to confusing to keep track of)

Ian

Edited June 26, 2009 by vagabond

[bighara]

Hmm, sounds pretty good. I had something similar written up on a scrap of

paper somewhere. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Also, and since I did thins with regards to the Elric saga, there should be a method to decrease Corruption. Not

all power wielding personalities were completely wacko. Myshella for example. Maybe some sort of atonement

process can be used to decrease Corruption and return some SAN.

(I think I should just drop the "-V" sig ... to confusing to keep track of)

Ian

Regarding reducing COR, I expect it should be possible, like regaining SAN. But I think I will avoid having "competing" Allegiances like Law v. Chaos. There is no "Holy" power to oppose the demonic in my setting. Demons are more Lovecraftian than Infernal (though they have elements of both). Perhaps doing things like helping to vanquish demons or strengthening the barriers between the mortal world and the realms beyond would reduce your Corruption score. It should be much harder to reduce COR than gain it. I wouldn't want to see players trying to whittle their COR down just so they can build it up again later.

[vagabond]

Regarding reducing COR, I expect it should be possible, like regaining SAN. But I think I will avoid having "competing" Allegiances like Law v. Chaos. There is no "Holy" power to oppose the demonic in my setting. Demons are more Lovecraftian than Infernal (though they have elements of both). Perhaps doing things like helping to vanquish demons or strengthening the barriers between the mortal world and the realms beyond would reduce your Corruption score. It should be much harder to reduce COR than gain it. I wouldn't want to see players trying to whittle their COR down just so they can build it up again later.

I concur. Atonement should either be time consuming, very difficult, or come

with some other cost. Or all three.

Ian

[bighara]

Okay, skills!

Here's the list I came up with (non combat):

Appraise

Art, Various

Artillery, Siege (includes assembling siege engines)

Bargain

Climb

Command

Craft, various

Disguise

Dodge

Etiquette

Fast Talk

Locks/Traps (Fine Manip.)

Bind Wounds (1st Aid)

Gamble (Gaming)

Palm/Conceal (Hide)

Insight

Jump

Lore, various (Knowledge)

Language, native

Language, other

Literacy (per alphabet)

Leechcraft (Medicine)

Navigate

Perform, various

Persuade

Research

Ride

Legerdemain

Sail/Boating (Pilot)

Spot

Stealth

Strategy

Swim

Teach

Throw

Tracking

[Al.]

Regarding reducing COR, I expect it should be possible, like regaining SAN. But I think I will avoid having "competing" Allegiances like Law v. Chaos. There is no "Holy" power to oppose the demonic in my setting.

Grrr geek sacrilege 'tis not Law vs Chaos which is the holy influence in MM's writings (the Lawful chaps are just as batshit crazy a the chaotics) its the dear old cosmic balance vs. Law and Chaos which offers attonement.

If it helps old Squidface and the rest of Lovecraft's gang are VERY lawful......

Al

Edited June 26, 2009 by Al.
embarassing inability to type a [

[bighara]

Grrr geek sacrilege 'tis not Law vs Chaos which is the holy influence in MM's writings (the Lawful chaps are just as batshit crazy a the chaotics) its the dear old cosmic balance vs. Law and Chaos which offers attonement.

If it helps old Squidface and the rest of Lovecraft's gang are VERY lawful......

Al

Heh, you are assuming the Law v. Chaos example in the first sentence is being directly related to the second sentence. Sloppy phrasing on my part, perhaps. I was thinking in terms of how I see preternatural forces in my game, not how they are presented in any "inspirational" writings.

I have been reading (and re-reading) HPL's and Mr. Moorcock's writings for decades. I am very aware of their concepts and how they are presented in their books. I'm not trying to re-create their worlds, just throwing them into the mix, along with ERB, REH, and Mr. Leiber, and others.

[bighara]

So with approximately 50 skills (combat or otherwise) on the able, what's a good skill point total for starting PCs? I want them to be pretty good, but not mega masters out of the gate. A starting character should be a cut above the crowd (I think I'll use the mook rules, giving PCs and major NPCs full SIZ+CON hit points.). Pg. 24 says 325 points for heroic, but with fewer skills I'm not sure that fits.

On a semi-related note, I'm not sure how to proceed re: skills and sorcery. One of the things I don't want is just anyone casting spells. Sorcerers are specialists. People shouldn't be running around with just 1-2 spells. If you study magic, it takes most of your time and effort, you can't do it casually. Also "Elric" types -superb warriors who are also powerful spell casters- don't fight the theme well either. It's not that the sorcerer can never pick up a weapon, but he shouldn't be wading in with a battle axe all the time either. Maybe requiring high Lore and Language skills to be able to learn spells is a possibility?

I need to look over occupations again, I guess.

EDIT: Okay, I just re-read about professions. I think I have a better handle on it now. I just need to decide which professions are available. I think I'll start with the Elric! list and tweak from there.

Edited June 26, 2009 by bighara

[Thalaba]

I think your skill list might be too long for S&S. I'm assuming for the moment that you'll want to play something realtively true to the genre, Howardesque with some Leiber thrown in. So here's what I personally would cut/change:

Appraise: This one is debatable, IMO. I mean, really, what is appraise for except for earning money. But S&S isn't usually about earning money [edit: at least not for the long term], so I'm not sure this skill will be much use in play. Personally, I'd drop it and just tell the PCs what things are worth. I'd use the Legend Lore to let them figure out if things were uniquely valuable.

Here's an additional thought - since S&S is usually episodic and the heroes are usually broke, maybe you could have a mechanic whereby the PCs MUST change in their cash & valuables at the end of each episode in exchange for extra skill checks - say one skill check per every 1000 gold - that could be applied to any skill they didn't get a check in.

Art, Various: I'd drop this - will you really have your S&S heroes making pottery to save their lives or defeat the evil sorceror?

Artillery, Siege (includes assembling siege engines): Again, I'd drop this. S&S is about SWORDS (and other manly weapons) and SORCERY - not about arbalests and trebuchets.

Craft, various: I'd drop this for the same reason as art. Or I might substitute a Devise skill to cover all those situations where the PCs want to make or repair a contraption.

Etiquette: I would allow it, but I might consider not allowing people to put starting skills into it. But that's just my view of S&S.

Language, other: Unless you want to roleplay people not communicating well with others as a feature of the game, I would just give everyone the same language. If you do want a lack of communication to be a feature, then fine - but for S&S I would limit the number of languages to 3 or 4.

Literacy (per alphabet): I'd either eliminate this or, if I was going to allow sorceror characters (which I probably wouldn't) I'd have only one alphabet in the game to keep it simple.

Research: I'd eliminate it outright for an S&S game. Literacy will suffice if you even need that.

Leechcraft (Medicine): Debatable, IMO. Maybe necessary if you don't have magic healing, but is it really something you want to roleplay in S&S? Maybe you should just have an NPC healer heal them up between episodes - or even better maybe healing is another way to get rid of all that money before the next episode.

Perform, various: Again - is this something you see the PCs having to roll on in game? Are they playing Conan or are they playing Sheherzade? But then again, acting might be a useful skill for a Grey Mouser character.

Legerdemain: Combine it with Palm/Conceal. It's pretty much the same as Palm, isnt it?

Navigate and Sail/Boating: Put them together. And will your PCs really have to roll on these? Ever? If not, eliminate them.

Teach: for NPCs only?

Strategy: Again, do you foresee the PCs using this? If so, OK.

Throw: remember you have a 'thrown weapons' weapon skill - you don't need both IMO.

All the others seem good. I guess all I'm asking is 'will the PCs use this skill, how often, and can it be combined with another?'

Thalaba

Edited June 26, 2009 by Thalaba

[vagabond]

Grrr geek sacrilege 'tis not Law vs Chaos which is the holy influence in MM's writings (the Lawful chaps are just as batshit crazy a the chaotics) its the dear old cosmic balance vs. Law and Chaos which offers attonement.

If it helps old Squidface and the rest of Lovecraft's gang are VERY lawful......

Al

Actually, if we're picking nits, Moorcock is about Balance vs. Imbalance, AND

Law vs. Chaos. Remember, not only do Law and Chaos not want a balance of

forces, but they want their force to reign supreme.

Ian

[bighara]

<tangent>

In most Moorcock, the forces of Law recognize the need for Balance, whereas Chaos does not. Since Chaos always strives for total victory, Law must respond similarly. Thus, in most of the stories, the Balance is maintained pendulum-style, as opposed to different forces interacting harmoniously.

</tangent>

[bighara]

I think your skill list might be too long for S&S. I'm assuming for the moment that you'll want to play something realtively true to the genre, Howardesque with some Leiber thrown in. So here's what I personally would cut/change:

Appraise: This one is debatable, IMO. I mean, really, what is appraise for except for earning money. But S&S isn't usually about earning money [edit: at least not for the long term], so I'm not sure this skill will be much use in play. Personally, I'd drop it and just tell the PCs what things are worth. I'd use the Legend Lore to let them figure out if things were uniquely valuable.

My thought was mostly for determining the value of loot, but I understand your point.

Here's an additional thought - since S&S is usually episodic and the heroes are usually broke, maybe you could have a mechanic whereby the PCs MUST change in their cash & valuables at the end of each episode in exchange for extra skill checks - say one skill check per every 1000 gold - that could be applied to any skill they didn't get a check in.

Interesting, but I'm not sure how well that would work with my players.

Art, Various: I'd drop this - will you really have your S&S heroes making pottery to save their lives or defeat the evil sorceror?

Heh, interesingly, one of the PCs in our last WFRP game was an artist (painter). He got into all sorts of trouble getting involved in salon-cults.

Artillery, Siege (includes assembling siege engines): Again, I'd drop this. S&S is about SWORDS (and other manly weapons) and SORCERY - not about arbalests and trebuchets.

I thought about this in two areas: NPCs in a big battle or Ship to ship combat. If you think of skills only for PCs, you're probably right that they wouldn't take it too often.

Craft, various: I'd drop this for the same reason as art. Or I might substitute a Devise skill to cover all those situations where the PCs want to make or repair a contraption.

Again, a skill I saw more as background (i.e. the PC used to be a cobbler) or NPC skills.

Etiquette: I would allow it, but I might consider not allowing people to put starting skills into it. But that's just my view of S&S.

It would depend on their background, I guess.

Language, other: Unless you want to roleplay people not communicating well with others as a feature of the game, I would just give everyone the same language. If you do want a lack of communication to be a feature, then fine - but for S&S I would limit the number of languages to 3 or 4.

There are a few (3 or 4) languages in the setting. One of which is the ancient magical language of sorcerers.

Literacy (per alphabet): I'd either eliminate this or, if I was going to allow sorceror characters (which I probably wouldn't) I'd have only one alphabet in the game to keep it simple.

I plan on allowing sorcerer PCs, so I want a hieroglyphic style alphabet.

Research: I'd eliminate it outright for an S&S game. Literacy will suffice if you even need that.

Good point. I was thinking in terms of magical research.

Leechcraft (Medicine): Debatable, IMO. Maybe necessary if you don't have magic healing, but is it really something you want to roleplay in S&S? Maybe you should just have an NPC healer heal them up between episodes - or even better maybe healing is another way to get rid of all that money before the next episode.

Very little magical healing, though I saw the healer more as an NPC. Your episodic ideas have merit. (Apothecaries aren't cheap!)

Perform, various: Again - is this something you see the PCs having to roll on in game? Are they playing Conan or are they playing Sheherzade? But then again, acting might be a useful skill for a Grey Mouser character.

(emphasis mine) That was more or less my thinking.

Legerdemain: Combine it with Palm/Conceal. It's pretty much the same as Palm, isnt it?

Close enough. Consider them combined.

Navigate and Sail/Boating: Put them together. And will your PCs really have to roll on these? Ever? If not, eliminate them.

Good idea. There is a fair bit of sea travel and/or piracy. If the PCs take to the waves for more than just a short trip, they may want to learn boats.

Teach: for NPCs only?

Perhaps.

Strategy: Again, do you foresee the PCs using this? If so, OK.

They might.

Throw: remember you have a 'thrown weapons' weapon skill - you don't need both IMO.

Dropped.

All the others seem good. I guess all I'm asking is 'will the PCs use this skill, how often, and can it be combined with another?'

Thalaba

Thanks for feedback. I want some granularity to skills, but not too much complexity. It's tough to find the balance.

[Al.]

Heh, you are assuming the Law v. Chaos example in the first sentence is being directly related to the second sentence.

Ya see what happens when I forget my emoticons? I assumed that the very tenor of post would shine through as a comedy over reaction. Sorry it fell short.

Thanks for feedback. I want some granularity to skills, but not too much complexity. It's tough to find the balance.

There is a definite art to balancing 'enough skills that the characters can all be interesting' against 'WTF have I got all these irrelevent skills at 01% on my character sheet?'

Thelaba's campaign utility model strikes me as being a good starting point.

I can see a value in Appraise (groan) for the exact reason you mention; checking how many shekkels to expect from Finbar the Crippled Fence for the emerald flower vase found in the High Priest of Set's bed chamber. Since the heroes do this sort of thing all of the time you COULD call for an Idea roll instead and give them more skill points to put into Weapon skills.

If you are going to include skills with no benefit in a fight to the death or for climbing into Temples and nicking the holy gold and ivory could I tempt you to give PCs an extra pool of skillpoints to spend on such 'flavour' skills? That way players who choose to make their PCs a bit more interesting don't then have to roll up a new character each session. And those who wouldn't normally choose to make their character more interesting might be tempted to especially as it won't cost them owt.

Could you combine the thoughts on training and healing inbetween episodes?

For each wound get back 2 hp naturally and for the rest it costs (100) gold per HP for the apothecary to heal it

Then (1000) gold per additional skill check (being a kindhearted old duffer I think I'd just roll for HOW MUCH the skill improved by rather than making this an extra chance to see IF the skill improved)

Anything left over gets turned into a temporary bonus to APP (next episode only) as the character has for once got a clean, non-blood or vomit stained jerkin, has had a bath and probably has some tasteless jewellery and/or decorative hangers on of the opposite sex as well - say each (1000) gold unspent gives +1 APP?

Al

[bighara]

So instead of having a bunch of professions, I'm thinking about letting folks customize their characters more. What I'm not sure of is how to handle restricting PC magic. Perhaps I'll have just 3-4 distinct professions with sorcerers and shamans among them. Otherwise, the player just customizes his PC. The professions restrict what skills you can take initially, but give you access to some special skills (like magic).

Make sense?

Could you combine the thoughts on training and healing inbetween episodes?

For each wound get back 2 hp naturally and for the rest it costs (100) gold per HP for the apothecary to heal it

Then (1000) gold per additional skill check (being a kindhearted old duffer I think I'd just roll for HOW MUCH the skill improved by rather than making this an extra chance to see IF the skill improved)

Anything left over gets turned into a temporary bonus to APP (next episode only) as the character has for once got a clean, non-blood or vomit stained jerkin, has had a bath and probably has some tasteless jewellery and/or decorative hangers on of the opposite sex as well - say each (1000) gold unspent gives +1 APP?

Interesting notions. Training costs can keep folks poor, of course, but I don't know about attaching healing costs. Possibly you could present it as a choice to the players (they just love thinking they have free will! ). i.e. Pay the surgeon/apothecary to heal faster or pay more in-town cost of living while you heal up at a slower (natural) rate.

The leftover cash/bonus to APP is amusing. However, I know some players would balk at not getting to keep their ill-booten gotty. Perhaps a Luck roll to see how much they have left at the end of their carouse?

Edited June 27, 2009 by bighara