Combat maneuvers

[Beast]

Greetings BRP community!

I was totally converted to BRP system when I accidently heard about it recently. I will attempt to introduce it to some friend of mine, but it seems that I hopelessly lost in some BRP combat rules, especially combat maneuvers. I believe some seasoned BRP rule lore masters will help me. Now please follow my train of thought.

As taken from The Big Book:

"During a combat round your character can perform any one of the following actions on his or her DEX rank: Move, Attack, Non-Combat Action, Disengage From Combat".

Question #1 – does that mean that I can only move OR attack on my turn, not both? (Feels wrong somehow. 12 second combat turn after all…)

Than goes “Move” section (pg. 190):

“If your character is unengaged, he or she can move around 30 meters in a combat turn if he or she performs no actions other than to defend him- or herself….Moving between 6 and 15 meters means that your character acts at 1/2 his or her normal DEX rank. Moving between 16–29 meters in a combat round means that your character acts at 1/4 his or her normal DEX rank…”

Question #2 – does this mean that I can act (attack?) after and only AFTER movement on the same turn if I'm not in hand-to-hand combat? Does it apply only to unengaged players? Are people shooting at each other with firearms are unengaged or engaged? And why it contradicts to above “any one of” phrase?

Question #3 – Can you attack and than move or, say, move-attack-move? (this one is a case with shooting behind a corner)

Question #4 – How to deal with abstractness of MOV characteristics? How to use it in context of answering “how many combat turns will it take PCs to reach point B from point A? Distance between A and B is xxx meters“. This will be the case when PCs start running for cover under heavy gunfire. MOV is great for relative movement, but I like map-based tactical maneuvers.

Afterword:

Just got new CoC (6th ed) book in mail today. Movement during combat there is something even more obscure and ethereal. It is up to the Keeper to digest it and rule who gets where. No mechanics included whatsoever.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Beast

[vagabond]

First, make sure you read what each of those actions means. For example, Attack means the character can make an offensive attack AND move up to 5 meters without penalty.

Second, and unengaged character can move 30 meters in a combat turn if he does nothing else during his DEX rank. If moving between 6 and 15 meters, that action occurs at half DEX rank, and between 16 - 29 meters, occurs at quarter DEX rank. Other actions can be performed, if the character has enough DEX ranks available, but penalties for additional actions and movement modifiers are applied. In other words, if a character has a high enough DEX, they can do multiple things, but have modifiers.

Engaging in Combat as Attack above - the character can move up to 5 meters and attack and/or defend without penalty.

Anyway, a character with a high enough DEX can attack and then move up to 5 meters, or possibly move less than 30 meters and then attack. Move, attack, move probably cannot be done due to not enough DEX ranks and excessive modifiers. For example, a character with a DEX of 17 can act on DEX ranks 17, 12, 7, and 2. There is no contradictions since the first rule says "During a combat round your character can perform any one of the following actions on his or her DEX rank".

Ian

[Beast]

Ah...I see a breach in my logic now. D&D combat rules messed up with my brains after all.

So, as I understand now each action in combat round is separated by - 5 DEX.

If you have, for the sake of example, 18 DEX and light pistol you can shot three times in your round (at 18, 13 and 8 DEX rank) and move some 5 meters.

Alternatively you could move 20 meters away and shoot once at 5 DEX or move only 15 meters and shoot twice on DEX 9 and 4.

Am I getting it correctly now or still messed up?

In this case I'm a bit lost with "shoot first, move later" sequence. How do you calculate this?

Edited August 13, 2010 by Beast

[pansophy]

After having a quick re-read of the rules, you seem to be right.

But the list of weapons allowing multiple attacks is relatively short (usually modern firearms) - and our group tends to use these for automatic fire to gain some better chance to hit.

Melee weapons can only attack multiple times if your skill is 100% of higher, and you have to split up the percentage value to do so.

I would keep it simple and allow ONE movement and ONE attack - at least that is what people in our group usually do. There is no point in shooting an enemy twice if you could shoot him once with a higher skill percentage anyway.

Edited August 14, 2010 by pansophy

[pansophy]

Just to clear it up:

- a combat round is 12 seconds

- a character can take ONE action as mentioned in the rule book

- movement DELAYs a characters action

- Aiming and other Spot rules DELAY a character

- DELAY happens within the SAME combat round

The example on page 190 could give you the impression a character could act MORE than ONCE in a combat round, which is not correct. The example is part of the Multi-action rule above, only valid for Skills greater 100% and Missile weapons capable of firing more than once per combat round.

Otherwise the Volley fire rules would not make any sense.

BTW: Volley Fire works like it is described in the example mentioned above; first shot at full DEX rank, following shots at -5 DEX ranks. All shots are considered "Difficult" then and it is not possible to combine Volley Fire with Automatic Fire. You could Aim, though, increasing your chances a bit.

[vagabond]

Almost.

You can perform more than one action as long as you have a high enough DEX. An Attack is an action, but not all actions are Attacks. So, if the weapon wielded allows for multiple attacks, or you have two weapons and the GM allows each weapon to attack, then you can attack more than once in a round on. However, you can attack and perform a non-attack action, again, assuming you have a high enough DEX and apply the necessary modifiers.

Again, a DEX rank is not a round. You need to remember that.

Ian

[pansophy]

You can perform more than one action as long as you have a high enough DEX.

Hm, I kind of disagree.

So, if the weapon wielded allows for multiple attacks, or you have two weapons and the GM allows each weapon to attack, then you can attack more than once in a round on.

There is a Spot rule for Two Weapons stating:

"Using two weapons in combat does not automatically grant a second attack, or more parries than are normally allowed."

and

"If a second attack is allowed, it occurs 5 DEX ranks after the initial attack."

Keyword here is "IF"

Two weapon attacks are only allowed, when the character has a skill above 100% in BOTH weapon classes:

"If your character has a skill of 100% or more in each weapon used, he or she can split the attack as per the optional rules for skills over 100% described on page 198 of Chapter Six: Combat."

However, you can attack and perform a non-attack action, again, assuming you have a high enough DEX and apply the necessary modifiers.

p.190:

"During a combat round your character can perform any one of the following actions on his or her DEX rank:

- Move

- Attack

- Non-Combat Action

- Disengage From Combat"

My definition of "any ONE" is ONE action of the list shown, not multiple. As the sentence speaks of a "combat round" =12s, it is pretty clear for me: one action, no more. Except you have a Spot rule you can use or a Skill above 100%.

If you could attack with a light pistol (Attack:3) at every DEX rank, the rule for volley fire would make no sense.

But then again, it is all about how you play it and how you like it. You bought the book, use it how you like.

Edited August 20, 2010 by pansophy

[NickMiddleton]

...

p.190:

"During a combat round your character can perform any one of the following actions on his or her DEX rank:

- Move

- Attack

- Non-Combat Action

- Disengage From Combat"

My definition of "any ONE" is ONE action of the list shown, not multiple. As the sentence speaks of a "combat round" =12s, it is pretty clear for me: one action, no more. Except you have a Spot rule you can use or a Skill above 100%.

If you could attack with a light pistol (Attack:3) at every DEX rank, the rule for volley fire would make no sense.

It's another lack of clarity in synthesizing CoC 6th and SB5. In SB 5 if your action at your DEX Rank does NOT preclude acting again, you can, at 5 DEX ranks later (Books are at home but IIRC 1/4 MOV was such an action for example). In CoC 6th, a fire arm that can fire more than once per round lets you shoot at your DEX and later in the round...

I think the intent of the p.190 text is that ON YOUR DEX RANK you do one of those things. IFF that action is such that another action would make sense (less than 1/2 MOV movement, single shot from a multi-shot fire arm, single melee attack from a character capable of attacking more than once per round) then you can make that additional action, but at 5 DEX rank later. It's certainly how I run it.

Books are at home so I reserver the right to revise my opinion when I've re-read the whole section

Nick

[pansophy]

It's another lack of clarity in synthesizing CoC 6th and SB5. In SB 5 if your action at your DEX Rank does NOT preclude acting again, you can, at 5 DEX ranks later (Books are at home but IIRC 1/4 MOV was such an action for example). In CoC 6th, a fire arm that can fire more than once per round lets you shoot at your DEX and later in the round...

I think the intent of the p.190 text is that ON YOUR DEX RANK you do one of those things. IFF that action is such that another action would make sense (less than 1/2 MOV movement, single shot from a multi-shot fire arm, single melee attack from a character capable of attacking more than once per round) then you can make that additional action, but at 5 DEX rank later. It's certainly how I run it.

Well, that is basically what I wanted to express. You usually can only do ONE action in the Combat Turn, but if you can use a Spot rule (e.g. Volley Fire in your example for the firearm or Skill>100% for one melee weapon), you could attack more than once in the same combat ROUND at your DEX RANK. Movement is an additionally thing as mentioned in the normal Combat rules further on. It definitely allows you to move and attack, DEX Rank depending on how far you moved.

Other actions can be done as well, but folks should judge what is possible.

What I wanted to express is, it is not possible for a character with DEX 16 to fire a Minigun 3 times in a Combat Turn at Full Auto.

Vagabond's post would allow that, which makes a combat quite unrealistic and daunting to follow (you would have to further divide the combat round into smaller "-5" parts for each character, making it finally totally unplayable with a bigger number of combatants).

In case this more detail is wanted, one should use the Strike Rank option.

--

cheers,

Vudo

[pansophy]

Ah, BTW: the difference between firing an allowing gun 3 times a Combat Round at let's say DEX Rank 16, 11 and 6 (1 is not possible as the gun only allows 3 attacks) and Volley Fire (which acts basically at the same DEX Ranks, 16, 11 & 6) is: Volley Fire makes ALL attacks Difficult.

And that is the point I am trying to make. If you decide to use all 3 attacks of a firearm in a Combat Turn, you need to use the Volley Fire Spot rule.

If you want to use a melee weapon more than once in a Combat Turn, you need to use the 100% Skill Optional rule.

If you want to attack with 2 weapons in one Combat Turn, you would need to have both weapons at a Skill of 100% and make Difficult attacks with both of them.

If you want to use Automatic Fire, you can only fire once - but at a higher chance of hitting.

Edited August 20, 2010 by pansophy
Automatic Fire

[vagabond]

Note regarding two weapons, the Golden Book notwithstanding, I specifically stated "and the GM allows". In all versions of Stormbringer and Elric!, two weapons allows for two attacks.

Another thing you seem to be ignoring:

An unengaged character can attempt the use of a skill, or power, or do some other action not requiring a skill check, such as drawing a weapon or opening a door. Use common sense as to what actions can reasonably be performed in this amount of time. It is suggested that these actions, if potentially combined with combat actions or multiple non-combat actions, incur a DEX rank penalty of 5 per action.

In other words, if not engaged in hand to hand combat, a character with a high enough DEX can potentially use a skill with the GMs discretion (assuming it is a quick action), take a DEX rank penalty, move 5 meters to engage an opponent, and attack. Otherwise, that last sentence makes no sense and should not have been included.

Ian

[Beast]

So movement only delays your action, no matter when it was made before or after it?

That is, if you have two characters with DEX 10 and one decides to move and than shoot while other does the opposite - shoots than moves they both will unload their firearms on DEX 5 (considering that they moved only 6-16 meters).

But let’s consider three different weapons :

A. Light Pistol (3 attacks per round)

B. Light Revolver (2 attacks)

C. Heavy Revolver (1 attack)

D. Rifle, Musket ( ¼ attacks)

Using example above, would both characters would be allowed to fire once with A,B and C?

If they had 20 DEX (yea, right ) that would had 10 DEX after the movement, thus allowing for second shot with A and B, but not C.

D is a bit a mystery, if it takes so long to fire with it, doesn’t movement is disallowed?

Am I correct with my understanding?

[pansophy]

So movement only delays your action, no matter when it was made before or after it?

That is correct.

That is, if you have two characters with DEX 10 and one decides to move and than shoot while other does the opposite - shoots than moves they both will unload their firearms on DEX 5 (considering that they moved only 6-16 meters).

That is correct.

But let’s consider three different weapons :

A. Light Pistol (3 attacks per round)

B. Light Revolver (2 attacks)

C. Heavy Revolver (1 attack)

D. Rifle, Musket ( ¼ attacks)

Using example above, would both characters would be allowed to fire once with A,B and C?

If they had 20 DEX (yea, right ) that would had 10 DEX after the movement, thus allowing for second shot with A and B, but not C.

D is a bit a mystery, if it takes so long to fire with it, doesn’t movement is disallowed?

Am I correct with my understanding?

You are correct here as well.

A character with DEX 20 who moved 6-15 meters may fire:

A: at DEX rank 10 and 5, using Volley Fire - so making the attacks Difficult

A: at DEX rank 10, shooting normal - and only once

A: at DEX rank 10, shooting a burst using the Automatic Fire rules

B: same as above, all configurations

C: at DEX rank 10, shooting normal - and only once

D: cannot shoot at all (assuming musket was unloaded), but as the character has 2 DEX ranks to do something, he could use them to reload the musket to half point of it. If the character would not do any more movement than 5m next turn, he could use his DEX rank 20 to finish the loading and fire on DEX rank 15.

D) is what Vagabond was pointing out in his last post. The loading process is a non-combat action and as the character (I assume) is not in engaged in close combat, a GM could judge to allow these actions. If the conditions were a bit more "tense", the GM could judge the actions are to be used under the Volley Fire rule again, which would make the Shooting roll on DEX 15 Difficult

This is a soft boundary and one should judge on a case to case base.

Edited August 20, 2010 by pansophy

[pansophy]

@vagabond: sorry, I really ignored your mentioned section as I was concentrating on the attack action only. You are absolutely right for non-combat actions. With these you can have more than one during a Turn, assuming they are quick and time would permit.

Example:

a character with DEX 20 could walk 5m, put his torch away (-5 DEX, DEX rank 15), ready his hand weapon (-5 DEX, DEX rank 10), open a door (-5 DEX, DEX rank 5).

That would be 3 actions in addition to walking.

[Beast]

Thank you a lot for clearing things out!