Detect Truth and honour

[Geoff R Evil]

I am developing a Humakti with a focus on the truth rune. Obviously seeking to be honourable.

I see an ethical dilemma or constraint in using the spell Detect Truth.

For best results cast it away from your target then approach them and monitor them for that dark cloud indicating if they lie.

 

This feels underhand or deceitful, and potentially dishonourable.

Example, kids in the village are disappearing, you pick up via an insight roll that someone might be hiding something. 
They are a clan member…is it fair or appropriate to use this spell like this on them to enquire what they know and confirm suspicions?

is it dishonourable?
 

There is a separate question as to whether it is obvious you are imbued with godlike powers, such as your truth rune glowing, or eyes seem extra glory or piercing….that might give it away! But let’s assume the gym does not enforce that or allows you to observe from a distance while in hearing while others make enquiries.

 

GM style adjudications welcomed

[JRE]

We play (and we have a Duck Humakti with Detect Truth, and a Lhankor Mhy / Issaries God Talker with Truespeak, so investigation is one of those things they just do) that it is evident when you cast rune magic, and it is openly visible in you unless your deity favors stealth. I already posted how we visualize spells.

To use such magics without the approval of a local authority or the local law enforcement is dishonourable, though the LM does not care about honor. If there are no local authorities (a group of refugees, for instance) the PCs will first assume authority and then use magic.

As indicated, their normal procedure is always to ask for a local authority's permission before using such magics, though, if they recognize their status, authorities seldom refuse, or they will seem suspicious as well. They run a first set of questions without any magic, with a local as a witness. Once they have their suspicions of untruth, they publically cast Detect Truth and ask the suspects to repeat their own statements, reinforced by the witness. If the suspect clams up, it is time for Truespeak and Mind Read, again asking for permission first. The Lhankorite once cast Truespeak in secret on a drunk target while remaining in hiding, but that is dishonourable for the Humakti and he was unaware of it. They end up using the spells mostly on those falsely accused as a way of proving their innocence, as usually the guilty parties avoid the obvious Truth hunters. It is also common for the LM to cast Truespeak on the Humakti, verified by a priest with Soul sight, to report what he has found using Detect Truth. Many people are reasonably suspicious of wandering strangers that claim to know the truth and accusing your people. It is quite different when people know you and trust you.

If the local authority is also a suspect, or they could be an accomplice, then things become more interesting. The first task if trying to get some allies among people in power before challenging the authority. They could intimidate them, but a duck and a historian do not seem so impressive. Often it ends up with the Humakti issuing an open challenge for truth in a public meeting, casting the spell openly and challenging people to talk publicly or be labeled as liars. That often starts a combat encounter, specially if the Humakti is within five meters of the suspect, as only the Humakti knows when something is a lie. 

 

[Karlak One-eye]

On 6/27/2023 at 5:06 PM, JRE said:

 

To use such magics without the approval of a local authority or the local law enforcement is dishonourable, though the LM does not care about honor. 

As indicated, their normal procedure is always to ask for a local authority's permission before using such magics, though, if they recognize their status, authorities seldom refuse, or they will seem suspicious as well. They run a first set of questions without any magic, with a local as a witness. Once they have their suspicions of untruth, they publically cast Detect Truth and ask the suspects to repeat their own statements, reinforced by the witness. If the suspect clams up, it is time for Truespeak and Mind Read, again asking for permission first. The Lhankorite once cast Truespeak in secret on a drunk target while remaining in hiding, but that is dishonourable for the Humakti and he was unaware of it. They end up using the spells mostly on those falsely accused as a way of proving their innocence, as usually the guilty parties avoid the obvious Truth hunters. It is also common for the LM to cast Truespeak on the Humakti, verified by a priest with Soul sight, to report what he has found using Detect Truth. Many people are reasonably suspicious of wandering strangers that claim to know the truth and accusing your people. It is quite different when people know you and trust you.

If the local authority is also a suspect, or they could be an accomplice, then things become more interesting. The first task if trying to get some allies among people in power before challenging the authority. They could intimidate them, but a duck and a historian do not seem so impressive. Often it ends up with the Humakti issuing an open challenge for truth in a public meeting, casting the spell openly and challenging people to talk publicly or be labelled as liars. That often starts a combat encounter, specially if the Humakti is within five meters of the suspect, as only the Humakti knows when something is a lie. 

 

This is fascinating and a very different perspective (which is great) from the way it would likely play out in our Glorantha: 

I would expect the Humakti to care little for local politics or authority - Humakt is after all the ultimate arbiter of Truth and is mythically separated from the Storm tribe so he has no tribal or clan bias, only the Truth matters! Now the LM may well be much more savvy and do a little politicking as things develop, so working well as a team.

As for folks not trusting a strange Humakti (aren't they all strange?) that is a very dangerous thing to say or, in some cases, even imply and could be a quick way to the combat outcome, which of course would not bother the Humakti in the slightest 🙂.

Having said all that in a situation where the Humakti does care about public opinion then I applaud your creative use of magic to make the truth as obvious as possible to all - even if they can't handle the truth!

Humakt's Peace and Blessings to you all.

[JRE]

In this case the Humakti is a SIZ 7 duck that survived the duck hunt and that, despite being a killing machine, is not very intimidating. And he is bound to protect a LM/Issaries Historian that believes getting people to tell you stories is the best way to find the truth, and the next book he will be writing and selling. So antagonizing people in authority is to be avoided.

The Humakti has a secondary purpose of earning respect for Ducks by his actions. So self defence and duels to first blood are ok, but he will only challenge someone to a serious fight when there is really no other option. Or his hated Lunars or Colymar.

On the other hand we consider generally that casting any spell that requires a POW vs POW roll is impolite, unless accepted by the target or someone in authority. Unless there is nobody in authority and you can assume the authority.

And that fits with his own honor criteria, so respect for authority and minimizing risk. Humakti may cut the family links, but you still need to be trusted and reliable, and always in control.

[Karlak One-eye]

12 hours ago, JRE said:

In this case the Humakti is a SIZ 7 duck that survived the duck hunt and that, despite being a killing machine, is not very intimidating. And he is bound to protect a LM/Issaries Historian that believes getting people to tell you stories is the best way to find the truth, and the next book he will be writing and selling. So antagonizing people in authority is to be avoided.

The Humakti has a secondary purpose of earning respect for Ducks by his actions. So self defence and duels to first blood are ok, but he will only challenge someone to a serious fight when there is really no other option. Or his hated Lunars or Colymar.

On the other hand we consider generally that casting any spell that requires a POW vs POW roll is impolite, unless accepted by the target or someone in authority. Unless there is nobody in authority and you can assume the authority.

And that fits with his own honor criteria, so respect for authority and minimizing risk. Humakti may cut the family links, but you still need to be trusted and reliable, and always in control.

That's all pretty cool - love the sworn link to LM and his own internal honour. If I may, might I "borrow" that pairing as a "Wandering encounter" on the highways and byways of fair Sartar?

[soltakss]

I don't think it is dishonourable, as you are simple uncovering the truth. If you are tricking them into telling the truth then it might be seen as being dishonourable, but it really depends on the circumstances.

 

[JRE]

On 7/1/2023 at 1:01 PM, Karlak One-eye said:

That's all pretty cool - love the sworn link to LM and his own internal honour. If I may, might I "borrow" that pairing as a "Wandering encounter" on the highways and byways of fair Sartar?

Feel free to use them as you need. Sorcery increases their abilities through increased Damage, and resistances. The Duckmis qualified to be a Sword, but remains an initiate as his duty is incompatible with those of a Sword. In our campaign they have been moving from 1616 to 1622 between Pavis, Sartar and Nochet, writing a history of the Lunar conquest of Pavis, a biography of Fazzur, and a record of Kallyr's rebellion. The player aims to be one of the authors of the Composite History of Dragon Pass.

They have left the Dragon Pass, as they are no longer welcome among the Lunars, and they are currently traveling in Ralios, but they could well have stayed as rebels.

[Karlak One-eye]

18 hours ago, JRE said:

Feel free to use them as you need. Sorcery increases their abilities through increased Damage, and resistances. The Duckmis qualified to be a Sword, but remains an initiate as his duty is incompatible with those of a Sword. In our campaign they have been moving from 1616 to 1622 between Pavis, Sartar and Nochet, writing a history of the Lunar conquest of Pavis, a biography of Fazzur, and a record of Kallyr's rebellion. The player aims to be one of the authors of the Composite History of Dragon Pass.

They have left the Dragon Pass, as they are no longer welcome among the Lunars, and they are currently traveling in Ralios, but they could well have stayed as rebels.

Appreciated and thanks. It is more the idea that will be carried over. At present our Glorantha campaign ~9an RQ2/3/G mashup) is in 1716 with a somewhat altered past 100 years from canon.