Number of Knights and Hides per Lord

[Kettlehelm]

Looking at the old Pendragon rules for 1E, it starts by saying a Bachelor knight has 2 hides. A Banneret has a minimum of 10 hides (plus 3d6 personal) and 4 knights (himself included) and a Baron has a minimum of 44 hides (excluding personal) 10 knights (including himself). But by the end they say a King has around 416 hides (excluding personal) and 100 knights. So somewhere the ratios begin to change and I can't seem to find any guidance in the rules.
Does anyone have any advice?

[Morien]

I don't think there was any guidance until BotE/W, Greg just had some values that he thought were OK.

There is also the fact that pretty much until BotE, there was 'money you don't see', and all that was being tracked was the knightly expenses. Thus, in order for a higher noble to really live up well (pay for tournaments, the larger court of retainers and hangers on), he needed to have more lands proportionally than a mere bachelor knight.

We can go through the Baron:
Personal minimum expense 26 L, and since 1 hide = 1 L, this is 26 hides.
Supporting 9 bachelor knights at 2 hides each = 18 hides.
26 + 18 = 44 hides, the minimum.

The same minimum calculation holds for a King:
216 L personal expense + 200 L for 100 knights = 416 hides minimum.

So it is not the lands per knight that changes, but the overhead to support the nobleman, his family and retainers.

Where did you get the 3d6 personal? All I am seeing in the Noble's Book is that the Banneret is spending 10 L on personal expense, and while he must lead at least 3 other knights on the battlefield. Given that the ransom is 16L, I think it should have said that the Banneret's minimum holding needs to be 16 hides (10L personal + 3 other knights at 2L each), since then it matches with the other ransom minimums.

[Kettlehelm]

On page 43 of the Nobles book, when it discusses generating random fiefs, it lists the rolls form the personal demesne on top of the roll for the different numbers of hydes and other income sources. For a Banneret it's 3d6.

Which is reflected in the random lists of Banneret holings which the average is around 13L in size over the minium of 10 and where it lists 10 Knight holdings, it lists demesne amoung them with Barons adding another 1d6+10 hides, but not mentioning if they are demesne.

[Morien]

On 11/21/2023 at 3:49 AM, Kettlehelm said:

On page 43 of the Nobles book, when it discusses generating random fiefs, it lists the rolls form the personal demesne on top of the roll for the different numbers of hydes and other income sources. For a Banneret it's 3d6.

Which is reflected in the random lists of Banneret holings which the average is around 13L in size over the minium of 10 and where it lists 10 Knight holdings, it lists demesne amoung them with Barons adding another 1d6+10 hides, but not mentioning if they are demesne.

Sorry, this fell off my radar.

I checked p. 43, and you are combining two things here. The minimum requirements and then the fief generation. 3d6 is not on top of the minimum, but part of generating that minimum.

If we look at the Settled Lands, we see that the generation of the fief is 4d6 hydes and 4d6 town pop for every 10 knights. If our minimalistic banneret has just three knights (in addition to himself, though), that is 4 knights in total, or 40%. That comes roughly to about 2d6 hydes and 1d6+1 town pop, or an average of 6d6+1 in total = average of 22 (21 if you drop the +1), which is well enough to support the banneret in comfort. Now, if he rolls less than 16 (~ 6% chance to roll 15 or less), then as the GM I would just adjust it to the minimum of 16.

 

[Kettlehelm]

OK that makes sense. But, rereading the pages and the only problem is the example on p.44, where Sir Lanceor the banneret has a fief rolled, then has 3d6 (14) hydes added to his fief which was already suitable for his knightly vassals at 55 pounds of income, enough for his 25 knights and his rich status.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Kettlehelm

[Morien]

25 minutes ago, Kettlehelm said:

OK that makes sense. But, rereading the pages and the only problem is the example on p.44, where Sir Lanceor the banneret has a fief rolled, then has 3d6 (14) hydes added to his fief which was already suitable for his knightly vassals at 55 pounds of income, enough for his 25 knights and his rich status.

Not a problem, that is exactly what I said.

You generate the fief by adding together the lands that scale with the number of knights AND the personal demesne that depends on your title.

So in the case of Sir Lanceor, he is a banneret (3d6) who has 25 knights, terrain type open lands (3d6 + 1d6 + 3d6 per 10 knights).

The GM does 25/10 = 2.5, which he generously rounds to 3, so 9d6 + 3d6 + 9d6 = 55.

Then the GM rolls the banneret personal demesne, 3d6 = 14.

And since the GM is feeling generous, he adds Other Sources of Income: 10+1d6.

Thus, the total fief is 55+14+10+1d6 = 79+1d6. Sir Lanceor is a very powerful Banneret and probably should be a Baron already...

Note that the 55L would not have been enough to support Sir Lanceor as a banneret (personal expense 10L) and 25 knights (2L each = 50L); he would have been 5L short. But it doesn't matter since there is still the personal demesne and Other Sources as well.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Morien