mfbrandi

7 hours ago, g33k said:

But I think for shamanic Stafford, the "shadow-self" of Glorantha is a mythically-linked doppelganger, someone the universe demands exist for all great figures; a reflection, a shadow, a complementary completion:  by concentrating so much of "this thing" in one place, the Universe demands that the "the complementary thing" come into existence, too.

I don’t think I would disagree with any of that, but I guess I would stress an aspect and ask a question:

• each is the other’s shadow: it is not that shining a light on Jar-Eel produces Argrath; each because the other (or both because some third thing);
• putting it visually, does the universe demand a black disc for every white disc, or is it more that each shadow pair is one yin–yang?

5 hours ago, g33k said:

they are one another's shadow-selves

I guess Jung gets into Glorantha by way of Joseph Campbell and the fantasy authors influenced by Jung — Ursula Le Guin and Michael Moorcock spring to mind. Here is a bit of the Wikipedia entry on the Shadow:

Quote

From one perspective, the shadow “is roughly equivalent to the whole of the Freudian unconscious”; and Carl Jung himself asserted that “the result of the Freudian method of elucidation is a minute elaboration of man’s shadow side unexampled in any previous age”. Contrary to a Freudian definition of shadow, however, the Jungian shadow can include everything outside the light of consciousness and may be positive or negative.

What is the relation between the mutual shadows? And what do we do with our shadows?

“Those were all the bad thoughts I never really had, and now I have killed them. Hooray!” doesn’t work for me. “Yes, that is me — and synthesis/compromise is possible” I like better.

On 9/4/2022 at 4:34 PM, Agentorange said:

Paris and Tring are not German or Dutch

Tring: It’s a Rothschild thing.

See also Mark Steel’s in Town: Tring

Here is a myth of Enlil — Lord Air, son of An (Heaven, male) and Ki (Earth, female) — as recounted by Tivka Frymer-Kensky:

Quote

[O]nce Enlil had created the pickaxe, he used it to dig a hole in the earth, and laid into the hole a brick-mold that had the seed of humanity. After he did this, people sprouted up from the ground like grass. In this text, Enlil is clearly the motivating power, and humans are born from the seed that he created. Earth is the womb, but it is an earth devoid of “earth-mother”; it is inanimate and without volition.

This fits in with the notion of Argrath as storm god stand in and his Gloranthan Spartoi as the children of his seed alone.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Dragon Tooth Runners are an idea borrowed from the Quest for the Golden Fleece.

Don’t let Ray Harryhausen throw you off the scent and send you to Colchis with Jason. The dragon tooth warriors (Spartoi — sown men) are from the story of the founding of Thebes by Cadmus. Cadmus was “the brother of Europa who was carried off by Zeus in the form of a white bull” (Michael Stapleton).

It just had to be a storm god in the form of a white bull, didn’t it? Here they are as drawn for Robert Graves by my mum’s auntie Joan:

1 hour ago, svensson said:

This entire conversation, while interesting, is really just a digression to the segue to the footnote of the addendum to the apocrypha. And in absolute truth, I don't really know the purpose of the whole thing.

Vinga IS Orlanth, Orlanth IS Vinga. They are separate facets of the same divine being.

Not just that, it is a zombie digression to the segue to the footnote of the addendum to the apocrypha — I expect Delecti or some angry ducks to turn up any minute now. It is just a bit of fun for people who find this kind of thing amusing, not an attempt to piss on anyone’s chips. It is explicitly not an attempt to rewrite Gloranthan canon — that is safely in the hands of Jeff and company.

But as you are here, take a glass of wine — red, naturally — relax, and join the party …

Think of a D10 as a cut gem: if 9 = Vinga and 0 = Orlanth [insert favourite aspect here], clearly the facets of the gem are not identical with each other, nor with the gem. Hence octopus–sock puppet vs. identity. (I do appreciate that the way people naturally express themselves does not constitute a commitment to either theory.)

My pet conceit is that Orlanth/Storm is the Red Goddess/Moon. It is an Arkat/Gbaji/Nysalor thing. Vinga, I am afraid, is a bit of an innocent bystander caught up in the kerfuffle.

Remember, Enki and Eurmal are clever, but I am just a fool.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is a limit to how much contradiction can be permanent …

The observable sky mechanics of Glorantha do lead to one conclusion, too, and that isn't heliocentric.

Thanks for your reply, Joerg.

IRL, if someone said to me “p and ¬p”, I would not understand what they meant. You can have two equally well confirmed statements that contradict each other, but that’s not the same as saying they are both true. That is nothing to do with the putative physics of Glorantha, so how do we “relax logic” (as it were) when discussing fiction? That’s not a put-down or a counter-argument: I just don’t know how to do it.

I am happy to be put right about Gloranthan celestial mechanics — my ignorance is, after all, boundless. I had in mind the story of Greg on being asked what the Fourth Age was like, pointing out the window. The wrinkle I added was: what if this wasn’t a rewriting of reality but a rewriting of Gloranthan perception (picking up from the Ron Edwards’ recreational drugs/Cali ’60s references). I know I didn’t spell any of this out, but this thread is explicitly a flight of fancy — not a jeu d’esprit, as that would imply a display of intelligence on my part — and not a solemn contribution to Gloranthan studies.

In case anyone gets caught in a loop clicking on “Episode 15 is out!” (link probably fixed by the time you read this):

https://godlearners.com/episode-15-people-of-glorantha-the-tusk-riders/

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Gloranthan heliocentrist round world "theories" fail to match the observations, and thus are philosophically and scientifically unsound.

So I take it you have no truck with what sometimes seems like orthodoxy: in Glorantha, two contradictory things can both be true.

9 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hm, I thought it was near Redding...

Reading to Wittering is 133 kilometers (83 miles), apparently. To me that is a fair bit of shoe leather, but we are a very small country — with very small minds, but sadly no longer with very small cars.

Redding is where the lifts/elevators come from, right?

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

In Glorantha, the sun and the seas appear to ignore one another a lot

It is weird, isn’t it, that we’re supposed to accept that the Gloranthans have their cosmology/astronomy figured out correctly? But maybe we are not quite meant to accept that: In GRoY (p. 71) we have:

Quote

Lunar Solutions
Finally, many of the questions of the celestial mechanics are
answered in the Lunar Settlement. This was proposed and
proved by the Red Emperor in Dayzatar’s Gathering of
1/14.

It involves a series of crystalline spheres which move in
very complicated patterns which are acceptable to
mathematicians and a mystery to normal humans.

This suggests that Gloranthan science isn’t done, yet. If the story of Glorantha is one of thinning — and thinning I think should be viewed as a Good Thing — perhaps Fourth Age Glorantha will have its Copernicus, Brahe, and Kepler. Of course, if the Aldryami (see proxy below) view it as thinning ( --> ), perhaps the Mostali see it as the repair of the world machine ( <-- )

Quote

A great change is coming, this world and all we have known will pass away.
Trees and stone, wind and rain, will be as naught.
It will be a world of artifice, of vast gears interlocking in one enormous mechanism.
— Lisa Goldstein, Strange Devices of the Sun and Moon

I like to think of it as the slow comedown from a mammoth trip with the world as it always was slowly reasserting itself in its inhabitants’ minds.

Godlearner report just in:

Quote

 

Oceanic tides lead to some of the largest currents of the world ocean and have important implications for oceanic circulation … Here we present evidence, using coupled high-resolution ocean-atmosphere simulations and in situ measurements, that ocean tides can drag the atmosphere above …

Ocean tides are mainly produced by the gravitational forces of the Sun and Moon and represent one of the main sources of energy of the world ocean …

In the literature, only two categories of atmospheric tides are documented: the gravitational tides (similar to oceanic tides) and the thermal tides, i.e., the effect of diurnal heating of air masses by the sun. These atmospheric tides are shown to be an important transport mechanism in the upper atmosphere. However, while they dominate the dynamics of the mesosphere and lower thermosphere, they are very weak in the troposphere. Yet their effect on pressure propagates to the surface and can add (by an inverse barometric effect) about 1 cm of elevation amplitude to the oceanic S2 tide—overall a small contribution to the tides. We demonstrate here the existence, to the best of our knowledge, of a new class of atmospheric tides induced by the drag of ocean tides.

 

TL;DR: Tides in the air driven by the sun and the moon. In Dara Happa, some people are feeling very smug.

I suppose this bit of doggerel must have come up before:

The Wind and the Moon
by George MacDonald

Said the Wind to the Moon, “I will blow you out;
You stare
In the air
Like a ghost in a chair,
Always looking what I am about —
I hate to be watched; I'll blow you out.”

The Wind blew hard, and out went the Moon.
So, deep
On a heap
Of clouds to sleep,
Down lay the Wind, and slumbered soon,
Muttering low, “I've done for that Moon.”

He turned in his bed; she was there again!
On high
In the sky,
With her one ghost eye,
The Moon shone white and alive and plain.
Said the Wind, “I will blow you out again.”

The Wind blew hard, and the Moon grew dim.
“With my sledge,
And my wedge,
I have knocked off her edge!
If only I blow right fierce and grim,
The creature will soon be dimmer than dim.”

He blew and he blew, and she thinned to a thread.
“One puff
More's enough
To blow her to snuff!
One good puff more where the last was bred,
And glimmer, glimmer, glum will go the thread.”

He blew a great blast, and the thread was gone.
In the air
Nowhere
Was a moonbeam bare;
Far off and harmless the shy stars shone —
Sure and certain the Moon was gone!

The Wind he took to his revels once more;
On down,
In town,
Like a merry—mad clown,
He leaped and halloed with whistle and roar —
“What's that?” The glimmering thread once more!

He flew in a rage — he danced and blew;
But in vain
Was the pain
Of his bursting brain;
For still the broader the Moon—scrap grew,
The broader he swelled his big cheeks and blew.

Slowly she grew — till she filled the night,
And shone
On her throne
In the sky alone,
A matchless, wonderful silvery light,
Radiant and lovely, the queen of the night.

Said the Wind: “What a marvel of power am I!
With my breath,
Good faith!
I blew her to death —
First blew her away right out of the sky —
Then blew her in; what strength have I!”

But the Moon she knew nothing about the affair;
For high
In the sky,
With her one white eye,
Motionless, miles above the air,
She had never heard the great Wind blare.

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

They say Orlanth's father is dead. He can't tell us who killed him or why, in a sorta fairy tale, his atoning (avenging) son brought back some other guy instead.

But voices keep telling us — nurse, my pills! — that it is futile to distinguish between parent and child in Stormland: Vinga is Orlanth, and Vinga is Orlanth’s child, too. So maybe Orlanth is Umath, and Orlanth is Umath’s child, too. And Sky is both one and many and parent to Storm. So Orlanth killed his father, and he did bring “the right guy” back (on a cyclical, strictly entropic basis, of course).

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Greg planted an easter egg in the Book of Heortling Mythology introducing Serenha, the sister or daughter of Umath.

And this fits in fine with Sedenya the Changer being one of the rebel gods who plots against Yelm (GRoY, p. 14).

And sister/schmister — don’t let apparent differences of sex fool you into multiplying entities. Look at how the Thunder family keeps threatening to collapse back into Orlanth only. Smoke, mirrors, and the odd woad-dyed sock.

37 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Are all happy families alike?

Well, I am always happy to contradict Tolstoy, so I’ll say “no”. Will Stan Lee send me a no-prize?

33 minutes ago, radmonger said:

What i find much simpler, elegant and understandable to players is the SHE-HULK theory.

I agree that She-Hulk != Hulk, and that they are not sock puppets or masks of some unknowable Über-Hulk.

I was merely navigating within the canon that Vinga is Orlanth — in some sense, and possibly in a quite straightforward sense. I am neither supporting nor attacking that bit of canon, but it is canon, right?

The identity theory doesn’t need explanation, right? In the octopus–sock puppet theory, Shari Lewis is the unknowable Orlanth/octopus, Lamb Chop is Vinga, and Charlie Horse is Orlanth Rex.

23 hours ago, radmonger said:

This is different from one group calling a thing  by one name, and another by a different one, like biscuit and cookie. If it the same people using both names, that means that those people do maintain the distinction between the two, like cake and biscuit.

Here are two ways to look at the thing:

1. The octopus–sock puppet theory: The true Orlanth is unknowable by mortals, but on the end of each of their tentacles is a puppet; these puppets are Orlanth x, Orlanth y, …, Hedkoranth, Vanganth, and our old friend, Vinga; the Gloranthan mortals interact with the sock puppets — lucky them!
2. The identity theory: You too can touch the face of god, who is fully present in every manifestation, and just as Hesperus/the evening star = Phosphorus/the morning star = the planet Venus, so Orlanth = Vinga, no ifs, no buts, no shell game, no find the lady, and no Shari Lewis.

(I was going to call these the Transcendent Orlanth (1) and Immanent Orlanth (2) theories, but on reflection: poncy and unnecessary.)

Bearing in mind that these are “theories” about a deity/deities, not about cults/subcults, according to the octopus–sock puppet take on things, Hedkoranth != Orlanth Adventurous != Vinga. Crucially, none of them is Orlanth, tout court, who remains unknowable. It seems to me that this could be handled so as to offend no one. However, if one picked one of the male or masculine sock puppets as the real Orlanth, but held all the others — including Vinga — still to be sock puppets, or hats, or disguises, my guess is that some people wouldn’t like that.

In let’s-not-try-to-rewrite-canon mode, I like the identity theory. Worshipers don’t have to know all the identities (and can argue about them) — just as not everyone knew the morning star was the evening star — but no one’s god gets to be second-rate. It doesn’t matter whether you see Venus in the morning or the evening, you are seeing the same planet, the whole planet.

There is no need on either theory to hold that the deity is essentially male or essentially masculine. How hard a group of Orlanthi lean into this will depend on their knowledge of the “mysteries” of their god/dess … as well as their mundane needs and insecurities.

In play, you don’t have to embrace all or any of the canonical identities, and you certainly don’t have to heed anything I say. YGWV.

40 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I mean it in the same way that Thunderous, Adventurous, and Rex are all Orlanth.

And presumably there is nothing mysterious or sense-stretching about this: when we are talking gods (rather than cults), Orlanth Thunderous = Orlanth Adventurous = Orlanth Rex = Orlanth tout court. Not many gods, but one god. Identity, pure and simple. Right?

So the various cults or subcults may celebrate different aspects or achievements of the god, but their POW in worship all goes to the same entity. The worshipers don’t have to grasp this — though many will, one imagines — but we “IRL people” know what is going on, and we don’t need proofs or demonstrations: Chaosium can just stipulate identities, and that is fine.

Now, gods are slippery characters, and doubtless they can change sex, gender, and appearance, and be in two places at once, so in Glorantha/from the characters’ point of view, “that can’t be Orlanth on the green, Orlanth is passed out in the pub” won’t get you anywhere. Characters need to engage in religion — dissection of scripture, religious experience, “magical proof”, whatever — to settle such matters. Clearly, if we as players did that, we would be crackers.

It seems clear that Orlanth = Vinga is canon. (And I am not here to dispute canon: YGMV, so what would be the point?) This doesn’t have to be dressed up any more than Thunderous = Rex — it is a simple statement of identity, not an “ooh, how can that be?” moment for the players. If that is the case, I have to agree with @Eff that this should be handled sensitively, and if possible playfully — with non-masculine/non-male attributes and pronouns adhering to Orlanth outside of the cult of Vinga, and Vinga not seeming like a drag act (as I know I will get dumped on from a great height if I suggest that the Orlanthi are a bunch of barbarian conservatives who know no better). I am not going to make any claims about current representation of Vinga — I am not qualified — but certainly, this hasn’t always been the case: Hero Wars’ “girls can play, but they have to dye their hair and wear a skirt” (i.e. women dragged up as women, no?) was perhaps no one’s finest moment, especially as it seemed that Adventurous was open to women, anyway. (There was a statement that some Orlanth subcults were men-only, but either I didn’t look hard enough or none of those specified were. Maybe Rex if there was an assumption that no woman would get to be clan leader or king.)

IMHO — and it is just my opinion, not holy writ, and not a call to arms — if Orlanth were to be deemed “all man” and Vinga just a dress he puts on to con “the ladies” into worshiping him, that would be kinda tasteless. Presumably, that is not @Jeff’s intention.

If Orlanth is officially sex-changing and gender-fluid, what does everyone think of their representation? I am supposed to be shutting up, after all!

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Just like sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, not all Red Women are the Red Goddess …

To me trying to draw a connection between Vinga and the Red Goddess is a stretch too far. The Red Goddess is her own thing, and a world-changer. 

Sure, absolutely, and this is not an attempt to remake canon. Just having a bit of fun with:

• monomythic reductive tendencies;
• people who think that identity is a directional relationship.

I would never try to subordinate Sedenya to Orlanth. Orlanth, Schmorlanth: I wouldn’t know him from Adam! (This is a callback to Saul Kripke.)

17 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Might as well inhabit the space between the stops.

Well, anyone can pick it up and blurt with it, but I think people deserve a rest from my wittering.

I think we can mark this one officially kicked to death and abandoned in a rat-infested alley. This morning, I stumbled across Ron “Sorcerer” Edwards’ Why Glorantha, and brutally condensed and distorted, it’ll make a fine full stop:

Quote

California counter-culture: a mix of pop philosophizing, retro-pulp revival, underground comix, recreational drug use, world mythology as understood at that time, neo-shamanism, violent heroism, and playful humor … offered to set one’s imagination into overdrive rather than outlining and codifying things to look at … then the acid and the heavy progrock kick in … if you take enough drugs or concentrate enough on abstruse philosophy or chant for hours with sweaty like-minded people on a holy day or kill enough people or monsters to make a difference in terms of a god’s identity …

This is not about the real setting or the right one or the only one.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

the figure she identifies with (or is forced to identify with) is someone else

I like this: whoever I am, I am certainly not me.

It had to be a counting song:

52 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Day + Earth = Storm. Night + Water = Moon …

Maybe the real cosmic distinction between them is that Orlanth is the one who knows his father.

But the distinction between day and night, life and death is an illusion, for if Yelm is the day, the source of all life (“allfather” — a title once claimed by a certain storm king too), he is also:

Quote

The shadow of Yelm, which was left behind when everything else was gone, coalesced as a limpid, wavering flicker of black fire. Kazkurtum … Death and Lord of the Dead (GRoY, p. 16)

And if Yelm = Death (“Notbeing …an absence, not a presence” (GRoY, p. 14)) — so the void, the end of all things — then not only is he the cause of his own disintegration — not another utuma! — but also (as Wakboth/Kajabor — also famously cyclic) the father of the moon and time and so the agent of his own rebirth into cyclic magnificence. (And if Arachne Solara has always seemed to have something of the dark about her, clearly she is also the sun spider.)

Note also on Moon–Storm equivalence:

Quote

 

One day something else came to Yelm. It was not a known thing, and when questioned it would not reply. It was a New Thing. It was named by Yelm to be Entekos but it did not accept that name. “I have a name of my own,” it said foolishly. So that was the first Rebel God, who did not submit …

Entekos. Literally “Right Air.” Later, a kinder goddess accepted this title (GRoY, p. 14)

 

Sedenya is famously not Entekos (if I understand correctly), but maybe she is Wrong Air. Is it worth trying to slide a cigarette paper between Umath the first rebel, Sedenya the Changer, and Lanatum the Thunderer?

Clearly, we have been given toys we can play with in different ways:

So with my mystic’s hat on, I say, “There is one myth — suicide, rinse and repeat — open your third eye and touch the divine — the one is many, all is one.”

If I had a polytheist’s hat, I’d say, “These apparent identities are traps set by the Deceiver. Burn the heretic!”

Godlearners: “Hat schmat! Identity schmidentity! Let’s freak out the rubes and blow something up.”

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

as he gets deeper into the dragon way a big piece of his posterity precipitated into the Dragontooth Runner pouch

I thought “a big piece of his posterity” was a euphemism and that he’d gotten started on the utuma early, storing the severed bits in his pouch. (In my head: Julian and Sandy from Round the Horne.)