Joerg

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

My sources were: Glorantha.com, AH Gods of Glorantha, Esrolia: The Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses.

I didn't question your use of sources, but the simplified picture there. Grain goddesses probably are as much Earth secrets as most males will be able to comply to. It seems to take exceptional qualities for prospective rulers/dynasty founders in order to contact the deeper sovereignty secrets. Those of the grain goddess cults don't appear to run much deeper than the plow shares.

Somehow I don't see Seshna Likita as a young woman clutching bundles of rye, but as a woman in prime mother age clutching serpents, wearing a crown, flanked by lions. Thoughts of rye come very, very late, a lesser aspect.

Likewise I am not sure how to deal with the Green Lady of Ralios, another serpent-entwined goddess of the land, alternatively known as Ralia or Ernalda. Imagery similar to Seshna Likita, with horses replacing the lions.

I don't find any grain connection at all for Kero Fin, and all the grains (and beasts) for Esrola.

IMO these land goddesses often enough are aspects of deeper female cults, which may send other avatars for the sovereignty of the land. On a clan chief level I think that the grain goddess will suffice, on a tribal federation level I don't. (The Theyalan model is the only one which counts here as it is the blueprint for any theist worship of the land goddesses, studied and simplified by the God Learners and carried to Pamaltela outside of Umathela (where the Theyalans were anyway).

Given the Malkioni reluctance to let women become sorceresses, I think the God Learners may have been somewhat less well informed about earth cults than they were about the "interesting" ones taking active roles. The Goddess Switch probably had some involvement of female God Learners, but I have the impression that the twins of Caladra and Aurelion fame saw one of the most outstanding female God Learners in history.

The resulting knowledge-light grain goddess sovereignty power probably served them and their theist subjects well enough when they restricted themselves to the local variety. Ongoing theist-tinted worship of Jrusta (or whichever fertility goddess the Olodo had contacted) was part of their great success on Jrustela, allowing rapid growth. I don't think that the God Learners ever delved into the secrets of the Serpent Kings - their Seshnelan engagement was as monotheist crusaders against the then still dominant Stygian school of Malkionism which shared elements with the Serpent King combination of theist worship of the land goddess and Malkionism. The Serpent King ways were abolished when the lineage died out and no new lineage was put forward (the dynasty had something like a reboot with Aignor the Trader doing a repeat of Froalar's marriage with the Earth with a lesser avatar from the east, IIRC). The remnants of the cult of Seshna were too insignificant and hidden to gain deeper secrets there.#

Ralios wasn't a fruitful study object, either - the local earth cult sided with the Autarchy, and may still have some of the best Arkati protection against invasive heroquesting there is on Glorantha.

Slontos however gave them Theyalan subjects actively practicing their earth worship, and no strong Autarchy intervention. This is where the God Learners studied the land goddesses, and where they decided to initiate the Goddess Switch. While they were active in Esrolia, the earth secrets there were way too deep to penetrate, especially by male-led researchers. They concentrated on secondary knowledge collected by the Lhankor Mhytes there.

So: grain goddesses can convey a certain degree of sovereignty over the land of the rulers, but IMO not beyond small tribal level. A tribal confederation needs something deeper.

Grain goddesses are a good way to get fertility magic that ensures a certain wealth and security. They are useful. They don't give any deeper secrets if approached as young women holding bundles of grain or as the grain plant itself. They are a safe approach, but a shallow one.

The Goddess Switch showed that the grain goddesses rely on deeper roots than the ones the God Learners understood and managed to transplant. These aren't part of the grain goddess cults or their limited sovereignty rites. Due to other problems like the Closing and the war against the EWF and the Old Day Traditionalists, the GLs failed to research or understand these deeper roots.

I don't see much evidence for Heortling worship of land goddesses, but a lot for worship of Esrola in her various aspects. Orlanthi elsewhere may differ. Heortlings wed Esrola or Maran for fertility, but Kero Fin for sovereignty, going for the bedrock rather than the soil. In Esrolia, the Adjusted Heortlings apparently settled for Orendana queens that were married by their warrior kings - lesser queens of lesser cities mainly, except for Finelvanth who experienced a replay of the Sword and Helm Saga. Non-adjusted Esrolians go the Grandmother way.

On 11/22/2015 at 11:16 PM, M Helsdon said:

The Grain Goddesses are the Queens of the Land, the land goddesses. The Esrolians consider Esrola the Mother of the Grain Goddesses.

That's the God Learner doctrine.

Esrolia clearly has a different sovereignty goddess (Orendana) than the various grain goddesses (Esra, Pela etc).

I am convinced that there is a Slonta, and I am quite sure she had a "grain" connection up to the God Learner era, though I don't know if that still is the case, or what grain that might have been. Dragon Pass doesn't seem to have a grain goddess, but has Kero Fin as sovereignty goddess, or her lesser avatars (Velhara, Sorana Tor, FHQs).

In Seshnela, we have Seshna as the sovereignty goddess to be married by the king (Froalar) only after Hrestol slew Likita Ifttala, her daughter, the mother of Pendal.

Don't even try to start in Peloria. Pelora, the goddess of maize. No, wheat. No, rice (three varieties). With Surensliba, Biselenslib, Eses, Naveria as the sovereignty goddesses of the lands.

Find me a cookie cutter example free of God Learner simplification, please. Then I will accept that as a single case for this quoted statement.

As I explored earlier, land goddesses are using the stem of the land goddess' name and -ia, -os or -ela. Those Pamaltelan "grain goddesses" whose names are totally different from the associated lands aren't really grain goddesses, but a God Learner attempt to make local plant goddesses fill the role they knew from Genertela. Vrala may be the notable exception.

I don't think that Esrola qualifies as land goddess for Slontos, Wenelia or Maniria. Grain goddess, maybe, but those regions each have their own sovereignty goddess different from Esrola.

The regions named -land appear to be named after peoples rather than goddesses - Heortlings, Caladrians/Caladrings. (Rindland probably doesn't have a goddess "Rind", but might have been the land of the Rindings, possibly named after some glorious leader. Corolaland is mostly uninhabited now, but might have seen more human habitation during the Autarchy. The Orlanthi kingdoms of Dragon Pass and Peloria aren't named after any goddesses, with the possible exception of Holay. In the case of Tarsh, I haven't got the slightest idea how that name came about. It starts out as "Arim's Kingdom" or "Shakelands". Neither is there any consistent systematic in the naming of the Pelorian satrapies and many of the other subdivisions (such as Henjarl, Esvuthil, Mastina), except for a few -ia instances like Naveria and Dikoria.

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

The Paps, as you assume, is derived from the breasts of the goddess, and is the site of the Deep Womb of Eiritha.

Given the placement of the Paps on the Eiritha Hills, they may be an entrance to the Deep Womb, but the womb would be situated further east. And the normal birth exit would be situated further north on the hills. The Paps is where Eiritha's nourishing fertility flows out, creating the Sacred Place with year-round fertile ground.

Unlike the namesake hill tops in Ireland (which are breast shaped), I think that here we have the beast mother anatomy. Maybe not the exaggerated udder of a Holstein cow, but if the hills bear any similarity to a herd beast outline, there would be several tits extending westward from a rounded hill in the angle between the hind leg hills and the belly hills. rather than a single cairn on top of each of a pair of rounded hills (as visited somewhere in Sartar in Jeff's improvised HQ Glorantha game at Chimeriades 2014). (But then the intrepid party of adolescent shepherds visitied those in search for the spirit women of the hilltops...)

8 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Dunstop is more problematical; there are references to it being founded by a chieftain named Dun, as his 'stop', trading place, on Kordros Island, so it might be better treated as a proper name.

That claim is from Dragon Pass - Land of Thunder, which was a collection of fan-submitted descriptions for places on the Dragon Pass map - not all of which have made it unchanged into the Guide (where applicable). The function as a trading place comes with its location.

Personally I don't think that translating the place names should be translated. Living near a border region, I always wondered why P

Sorry to the anglophones, but I'll give German translations I have seen in use before.

Boldhome: Kühnheim

Furthest: Weitest

The Spike: hasn't received an official translation yet. "Der Nagel" (the nail), "der Dorn" (the thorn) or "die Nadel" (the needle) might be appropriate if you think of the office tool spike to keep leaflets in place - that's what the Spike did to the various phases of Creation, stacked one atop the other (until Storm broke the sequence). "Der Bolzen" (the bolt) would be the screw keeping the World Machine together, but doesn't take the shape of the mountain into account.

Starbrow: Sternenstirn

Wideread: I seem to recall "der Vielbelesene"

Dunstop could be the adjective dun (German: matt, dunkel, graubraun) plus stop (German Halt as in river port or station). The city sits on Kordros Island on one of the two branches of the upper Oslir River, so I wouldn't associate it with a hilltop (as in Dun's Top). The dun bit could also be to dun (someone) - German "mahnen" - to admonish, exhort, urge, remind (someone).

Paps: der Euter (the udder), maby der Busen (the bosom/tits) if you prefer a less cowish Eiritha.

Pimper was the family name of one of Greg's playtesters/friends who got immortalized in the oasis names in Prax, IIRC. There are few oases on the Nomad Gods map that did not have this background. (Come to think of it, Dunstop may have had a similar origin, although I don't recall reading any similar name in the playtesting credits.)

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

The term "giant" applies to actually a very wide range of beings with very different genealogies. In truth, it is about as precise a term as "deity" or "demon". Any really big largely-humanoid entity can be (and is) called a "giant". I really would advise against using the term "giant" to try to make careful classifications.

I wonder whether "humanoid" is a binding qualifier - I think that there are (or at least were) giants who weren't limited to the humanoid shape. And that's not just mountains that may or may not be kneeling or sitting humanoids covered with debris.

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

I'm wary of Genert being an Earth giant. Primal Earth god yes, but giant only in he was physically big. The whole giant thing is a bit too much of a norse mythology crossover. Physically big as in the whole continent, the part we are referring to is the conscious god part, not the physical size. Clearly when he dies, the continent remains, devolved/evolved into his daughters and sons - the land goddesses - apart from the Wastelands which is his core being. Following this line of though the mountains are part of his body, so the true giants are his are his children.

That logic makes the dragons who form entire mountain ranges or that leave deep valleys when they take off children of Genert as well. IMO the Elder Giants aren't much different from dragons in taking their environment in to form huge bodies. This is similar to the Black Eater taking in the troll armies at the Battle of Night and Day to form its body. And, in case of the Elder Giants, we know what happens when parts of the body are ripped off - go visit the Thogsarm Hills north of Pavis. (Has anyone ever tried mining these hills for the bones that might be found there?)

Genert was the first of a type of earth giant, but not necessarily the first giant - those ancients mentioned in the Annilla cult possibly predate the Green Age. From the looks of it, Genert and the various giants of the Eastern Rockwoods and further east or west were on friendly terms.

I do think that Pocharngo could cause horrible mutations on gods and comparable entities, too. However, gods being able to multilocation, multiform etc., they might be able to amputate that chaotic mutation, and possibly destroy it - remaining mutilated. When they did not manage to destroy the tainted thing, we get a chaos monstrosity. Where they didn't manage to sever all chaotic taint, the cancer would grow on.

There may have been gods etc. like Vivamort who were given the choice to perish or to arrange themselves with their chaotic nature. This will have led to chaotic deities of the elements etc., entities like Urain.

42 minutes ago, Martin said:

I just feel to me it feels more comfy to have caladra as an Earth goddess...after all caladraland is named after her

I know we have exceptions like Heortland or Pamaltela but on the whole lands are named after earth deities so it just makes sense to me...

Typical Gloranthan country names end on -ela after the stem of a land goddess (Seshna, Frona, Ketha, Jrusta) or a ruling god (Genert, Pamalt, Vith, Wenel), -ia or -os after the stem of a land goddess (Esrola, Pelora, Manira(?), Ramala, Ralia, Teshna, Slonta, Vrala, Azila?, Sentana?). There are only a few -land countries, Heortland and Caladraland in Kethaela, Corolaland in Ralios, Rindland in Seshnela. Heortland is the land of the Heortlings. I would think that Caladraland would be the land of the Caladrings. There is no indication that Caladra is regarded as a land goddess.

Thoughts about the material culture of the Caladralanders

These are suggestions rather than known facts...

Diet

Slash-and-burn agriculture doesn't use the plow, but still allows for grain cultivation alongside all kinds of vegetables and roots (supplying starch). However, I cannot thing about any vegetarian culture of spear-men. The spear is both a military and a hunting implement, and may be used for herding purposes, too.

What husbandry do the Caladralanders keep? If they keep cattle, it would be a breed specialized on browsing the forested slopes. The higher pasture probably is too broken for cattle, but fine for goats or sheep. The area around the settlements would be good for pigs, possibly of a smaller size than the lowland or forest breeds of Maniria. Marmots might be kept for meat and animal fat, too.

I expect a variety of colorful fowl to cohabitate with the humans. Peacocks of various sizes, possibly parrot variants feeding on wild fruit of the upper forest, pigeons, maybe some chicken breeds, too. Hardly any water fowl for lack of sizealy bodies of water. There are rivulets and small streams almost everywhere, but few water courses you couldn't jump across (unless they dug themselves deep canyons), and few depressions acting as catchment basins.

Do the Caladralanders keep animal companions? I'd hesitate to give them alynx or dogs, but perhaps they have mustelids or mongoose to keep pests down. Trained hunting birds are a possibility.

What is there to hunt? Small deer, wild pigs or rodents, monkeys, birds of any size and lifestyle, a few larger feline predators (puma? leopard/jaguar?), a breed of bears, tree lizards, snakes, frogs, salamanders, locusts, wild bees, ants,

I don't see much opportunity for fishing except in water-filled calderas, and there probably more amphibians than regular fish. Lots of water insects wherever it remains wet, though.

A couple of customary food insects might round out the diet. Possibly some variant of locust included.

Clothing

Fur and skin and birdskin (with feathers attached), weaves from feathers, plant fibre (possibly from palm-like leaf fronds rather than plant stalks (as for linen) or cotton). I don't see much potential for wool in that climate, although some kind of angora might be harvested.

Housing

As slash-and-burn farmers, we can assume either a certain mobility of their homesteads or otherwise a tula around permanent settlement sites with a migration pattern of the agricultural areas.

Or a combination thereof –. a permanent, fortified winter settlement site also serving as a refuge in case of invasions, and temporary settlements among the current field areas during the farming season.

The Guide tells us that the Caladralanders sow their fields and then leave to pursue other activities. This still can mean that they use temporary huts while in the neighborhood of the fields – both preparing the plots, and harvesting them.

Caladraland is probably the warmest spot in central Genertela, both with geothermal heat and mild coastal climate. The rugged terrain makes it possible to avoid wind exposure, or to seek it. Permanent structures will choose defendable sites – both against the elements (storm, ash, lava flows, earthquakes and hill slides) and against hostile visitors, whether human or beast.

Building materials will be wood (for frames and roof support, and woven branches for wall segments), volcanic rock or ash (which might be processed for some kind of lime cement taking over where other places use clay for plaster). Roofs should survive the occasional rain of hot rocks or ash, so thatch might be avoided for permanent buildings. Summer huts on the other hand might use huge leaves for thatching and walls.

I wonder whether the Caladralanders cultivate strangling figs or similar vines for wall segments, hedges or even bridges

I'm a bit curious about Caladralander storage solutions. Storage places need to keep of pests, humidity and heat. I see a lot of potential for baskets hung from the rafters, or even hanging platforms or framed nets for larger harvests.

I don't expect much local pottery (though plenty of imports from Esrolia – reused packaging of whichever goods were imported). Clay soil would be rare among the ejecta. Wines probably are stored in skins or possibly barrels, or amphorae traded from Esrolia. I expect many uses for resins harvested from the trees and bushes – incense, spice, conservatves, glues, waterproofing.

Tools

There would be a certain amount of brass available for local mining. (Brass, not bronze...)

Obsidian blades are widely used. The volcano priests might even have techniques to cast lava into raws for knapping.

Hunting tools include the stout spear for close combat, the atlatl/woomera for light, feathered javelins (bow strings are hard to maintain in the climate), throwing sticks (or slim obsidian-bladed axes) for prey in the trees, and nets or fringed lines with adhesives from tree or plant sap for smaller flying prey.

The main agricultural tool is a wood-bladed shovel shaped like an adze to shift the volcanic soil enough to place seeds or saplings, or to dig up roots and beets. Sickles for the harvest of grain are made from obsidian.

4 hours ago, UnlikelyLass said:

This (and several other similar conversations on other forums) is making me want to generate a giant graphviz diagram of all the various BRP-derived systems. A kind of family tree. 

André Jarosch prepared one such diagram for this year's booth of Chaos Society.

On 15.11.2015, 20:53:34, Jeff said:

That story does not have Lodril becoming "part-Chaos" as a result of fighting Krarsht. Rather, as a result of that desperate struggle Lodril was "tainted ever afterwards with a violence unlike most fire entities." Most stories of Lodril have him being somehow "polluted" or "tainted" - the Dara Happans claim it is because he exists in the Lower World (and are more concerned about his gross appetites than his violence). This is the Theyalan version of the same - the Theyalans don't consider him polluted by his sensual appetites, but by his violence and destructiveness. 

So the Theyalans see Veskarthan as a shaper only when in bondage, but as a destroyer when released?

Or do they acknowledge that his anger derives from being kept in bondage? He appears cheerful enough when entering Umath's camp as the first guest, probably on his way to his next date with the Land or Earth. Quite likely on his way to fathering Quivin? (I notice that the genealogical circular table in Heortling Mythology has Kero Fin not only as mother of Orlanth but as the mother for his brothers, too - p.11. Also including Urox - a deliberate "contradiction" to the God Learner statement in Cults of Prax that Mikyh was Storm Bull's mother?)

Are there less explosive or more tamed aspects of Veskarthan that are worshipped/embodied by the everyman of Caladraland? (Fire) Spear warrior, Shaper (obsidian knapper, spear maker, builder), slash-n-burn farmer?

And what about the women? Veskarthan is joined to Gata, the ancient earth, older than Asrelia (overall fertility, maternity, bounty, but also primeval desires and demands), or to Asrelia (bounty inside the Earth), or to Esrola (bounty out of the Earth). Do we get scary priestesses or sorceresses in league with earth powers more ancient than what the Esrolians deal with? Joined to the Fire Within the Earth in an eternal "embrace" (euphemized), and probably irritated when bothered too much?

Does anybody regard Veskarthan as the fiery seed of Aether still sloshing around in the Earth? Umath's unborn brothers? The entire concept of the erupting earth is both phallic and hermaphrodite. Volcanoes are phallic wombs. Basalt cones left standing are one thing, calderas send a very different message. GaLodril.

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

I think you are focusing too much about the God Time origins of folk. Are the pre-Roman inhabitants of Britain descended from the Lydians, Trojans, the Belgae, or come from the sea? Are the original peoples of Kethaela the descendants of Durev, Darhudan, or did they come out of the earth from the songs and dances of the goddesses?

Yes - that's exactly what forms the myths about the British, and much of their (and the US) national identities. Look at the impact of those reconstructed myths in the late 19th and early 20th century, all the way up to Achtung! Cthulhu. Look at your own ancestral identity and how you present it to your children.

The Heortlings understand themselves as descended from those of the Vingkotlings who made it to the Dawn. These people aren't Heortlings. They weren't Vingkotlings, but something else - people of Hanoro?

Ok, so the Silver Age survivors huddled in a cave under Solung plateau, forgetting much of what went on before, then "rediscovering" their ancestry. The God Learner C&A got successful here because there are gaps in the ancestral knowledge that could be filled, but it also was well integrated into what was known or rediscovered.

We are told these people are culturally Orlanthi. I'll grant you that they are Theyalan and Kethaelan, but if they are Orlanthi, then the Pelorian Lodrili are, too, unless we find a good ancestral position to say there is a substantial difference.

I've been rereading "Esrolia - Land of 10k Goddesses" a bit, and I find a strange mixture that puts the Grandmothers both in a Green Ageish context and as a relatively recent (Sword and Helm Saga) development. The Three Bad Men include a chronoportated Kodig in what I would call an early Golden Age myth. (Or maybe the special power of Kodig Vingkotsson is that he was a re-incarnation of one of the Three Bad Men?)

Once again, the Caladrans have forgotten a lot, but they have a lot more to forget than the humans who derive their myths just from the Downland Migration.

I still wonder why the Fuel within the Earth is mixed up with cults about the Fire within the Earth. Asrelia's bounty?

Another minor concern is the origin of the Caladralanders. Are they descended from the union between Vestkarthan and Asrelia/Esrola, or the lowfires and the earth handmaidens (as listed with more names that anyone can remember in Thunder Rebels)? I think they are classified under Durevings, along with other Golden Age folk of the lands north of the Spike met in the downland migration.

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Following on from the  Practicing sorcery: any material components? topic: 

I thought I'd mention one of the discoveries I had in doing the spirit magic for HeroQuest Glorantha. Spirit Magic users can learn rituals that will do things like summon a specify spirit. These are clearly different from a charm. A charm is a spirit in an object that will do a specific task for it's "owner". But a ritual is a set of knowledge based tasks that produces a particular result every time. Waha Khans can learn to summon special spirits - The Founders and Borabo Nightmare the cult spirit of retribution. Doesn't this sound like sorcery with specific limitations (must be a khan)? Theists can also learn rituals.

Back in RQ3 rituals were presented as a common approach to magic that isn't done on the fly, by a single person.

Rituals are involved in starting a heroquest, in worship/veneration/ecstatic communion, and even in preparing a charm. Basically, in all advanced forms of magic.

Every Praxian male learns the ritual of the Peaceful Cut. It is clearly a spirit magic - a release of the spirit for rebirth - but it requires knowledge and skill. You don't just take a charm and off goes the spirit.

The sentence "sorcery is something you know" is a vast simplification. Just reading a grimoire won't activate a spell, you need to direct the energies to effect a spell, through the energetic channels and nodes that the grimoire can direct you to. You draw on that Otherworld, draw it in, let it build up around you.

In case of the specific summoning of a Founder, you draw close the spiritual realm of that founder. The specific limitation "must be a khan" sounds like a theist concern. (And no, I don't think it is a question of having the regalia in order to be able to summon - or rather invite - the Founder.) And the final element still is the personal negotiation between the Khan and the Founder to convince the Founder to join his tribe.

There are numerous waves of pirate/emigrant fleets emerging from Ygg's Isles. The natives there are sailors by necessity and kept destitute by Loskalmi design.

The magic of creating the wolf spirit figureheads appears to be passed on among the Yggites. They can use the lumbering outposts on the fringes of Winterwood for preparing those fleets.

Gothalos in the northern Jrusteli archipelago is an Yggite stronghold which doesn't manage to do much piracy because the Orange Guild dominates the waters. I think that the guild employs Yggites for their navy without giving them command of their ships.

In the Pasos Isles, Ginorth has a sizeable colony of Yggites, and probably its share of wolf pirate ships. Their Luathan neighbors keep official fleets away.

Threestep Isles have the next largest sedentary Yggite population since way before Harrek joined them. The local wolf pirates probably are only 50% Yggites, with many coastal entrepeneurs in brigandy joining up with smallish fleets after falling foul of coastal navies ransacking their hideouts. Upon acceptance their ships are retrofitted animated figureheads.

I think that the Pamaltelan branch of the Wolf Pirates is instituted by Harrek in Laskal around 1622. They will raise local crews while Harrek continues his circumnavigation and Genertelan adventures.

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

 Rokarism is a movement to restore the ancient glories of the West, while avoiding the abominations of the God Learners (who are viewed as an inevitable byproduct of Hrestol's teachings).

I wonder if Hrestolism wasn't a return to the opportunity for everyone to participate in the philosophical process of deriving insights from the logics.

The six ancient tribes of Danmalastan defined themselves by a certain intellectual pursuit - writing, building, sailing, speaking, discovering and cogitating. It doesn't look like the castes were present in these tribes from the start. And even if they were, in the ancient world (or more precisely, in ancient Athens) the lowly farmers and cobblers could be highly regarded (or despised) philosophers. A man was expected to contribute to philosophical debates as much as he was expected to contribute to the polis. Those who didn't were idiots (selfers).

The Rokari wizard caste doesn't seem to like it when warriors or serfs pursue original thought or philosophy. They may be acutely aware that there aren't any great wizards like Halwal or Yomili around any more, even though they appear to have the chain of veneration control at the heart of their power and pursuits.

The (old) Hrestoli society appears to have a widespread basic literacy - enough to trail the scripture with your index finger. (I'm not so sure about the New Idealist Hrestoli degree of literacy, they may have reserved the the Rs (reading, writing and (a)rithmetics) for the knightly curriculum.) I don't think there was a concept of serfs in Malkioni lands, although the barbarian lands (like Rindland or Slontos) probably reserved such a status for the indigeneous non- or not-quite-Malkioni.

The only grassroot participation the Rokari want is in the chain of veneration, the magical support of their wizards.

Now compare the vibrant intellectual exchange and debate in the 13 colonies of Jrustela in the years before the arrival of the Abiding Book, and the enthusiastic popular reception of that scripture, and the various schools about how to approach it.

I doubt that the stodgy linealist Hrestoli of the southern provinces of the Kingdom of Tanisor named Seshnela retained much of that spirit after observing most of their neighbors being drowned, but they appear to have been a haven of liberal thought compared to the strictures of the Rokari dictate.

I wonder where the Pithdarans stand (and stood). They have always been proponents of an ascetic pursuit of the philosophy, and the last defender of pre-1049 orthodoxy was Yomili. Practically all modern Malkioni schools in Genertela can nod towards Halwal, Yomili's contrahent, for formulating their stances against the God Learners (foes of Yomili as well). Yomili was a staunch (old school) Hrestoli but loyal to the imperial crown.

I wonder where the Pithdarans stood in the battles of Bailifes. From the Seshnela  color plate, we can infer that they now follow the Rokari school. However, they are located in Nolos, which has managed to remain outside of the king's direct influence for the time being.

If you look at the possible subjects of Tapping, you may find that the restrictions are mostly directed against tapping fellow human beings. The Tapping of animals, crystals, spirits or the land would be a different topic, and I feel that this would be a common practice for sorcerers in the field, away from the congregations that support the wizards at home.

1 hour ago, Baulderstone said:

The oldest known occurrence of the word "knight" in wiriting comes from an 862 Old English translation from Latin of Orosius' Seven Books of History Against the Pagans (the original was written between 414 and 416). The first use of "knight" (well "cniht" as it is written in the text) is applied to Marcus Curtius, a devoutly pagan Roman soldier who died in 362 BC. 

In it's earliest usage, it's a term to describe a boy in service to another. This service may be military in nature, but it doesn't need to be. It isn't until the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles of around 1100 that it takes on the connotation it has today in English. It's continental Germanic equivalent, "knecht" came to mean a servant, farm laborer, or stable boy. 

And speaking of it's Germanic origins, it is a word that the Saxons brought to Britain before they even converted to Christianity. 

Knecht also means able-bodied man, and as Landsknecht means Man-at-Arms. The German term for knight is just like the Latin/French/Spanish one simply rider or horseman. Looking at the Malkioni innovation of riding warriors, mixing prerogatives of the talar and horal castes, the connotation of horse warrior these languages bring are spot on. Persian or Indian mounted warrior nobility fit that same bill, too, and date back into earliest Iron Age.

I am not sure that researching these terms linguistically will further our Gloranthan understanding.

1 hour ago, Baulderstone said:

The word "church" is also Germanic.

True, it is Germanic in the use for ecclesia. Actually, church or Kirche or kirk are derived from Greek kyriakon "belonging to the Lord", which appears to have been used by the greek-speaking early communities around the Mediterranean.

The early Germans didn't really have a concept for a sacred enclosed building (even though they kept using the megalithic graves and sacrificial stones - no stone circles on the Germanic lowlands). They had places of sacrifice, often using inspiring natural features (trees, boulders) or inherited from earlier cultures, possibly in an enclosure. Now where have we seen such a description before?

Right, the Orlanthi.

But back to the Germanics - they had basically no contact at all with the Greek language, so there would be no pre-Christian opportunity to adopt the term kyriakon.

1 hour ago, Steve said:

There's a very big difference between representing Christianity in a pseudo-historial "real-world" RPG setting where Christianity was present, and doing the same in a Bronze Age fantasy world, surely?

Sure - why should one do the latter?

The West has been described as

Materialist (Cults of Terror)

Monotheist (RQ3 Gods of Glorantha)

Kingdom of Logic (various).

Of these three, only the Monotheist label has a tendency that could be read as Christian. Or, in a Bronze Age context, Jewish.

Earliest explicit mention of the Malkioni West appears to be in the Cult of Issaries in Cults of Prax, the Garzeen subcult tying in with Fenela, sister of Hrestol. Curiously using materialism in the negative:

Quote

Garzeen looks rotund and bearded, and often shows his wealth and status with excessive dress or luxury. With this he once hoped to attract Fenela, a daughter of King Froalar in the west. She scorned such materialism, and even more distrusted the advances of a god, fearing infidelity after a time.

We do inherit the term knights for Hrestol and subsequent Malkioni. This could look Christian. But then, e.g. Charlemagne's stories tell about Saracen knights. So does the Saladin myth. And we get pagan knights in the Arthurian legends based on the Welsh originals of those myths.

And then there is the rather unique name of church for the various groupings of Malkioni in the RQ3 and subsequent material. The only term I find almost exclusively used in Christian context among these, describing a monotheist organisation of veneration without sacrifices. (There are other, even non-religious organisations like the Scientologists who use this term, too.)

Scant evidence for a Christian parallel in the official material. Except in what the readers from a predominantly Christian background make of it.

Straying into the bad old days of 'tis/'taint here...

Hunter god of the Dawn Age Heortlings:

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Odayla is the default subcult now.  He wasn't necessarily so in Dawn Age Kethaela.  And another hunter among the Orlanthi is Siqwend/Siwend as per book of Heortling Mythology.

Siwend looks like another name for Ormalaya, albeit a distinct point is made for archery.

We know that Vingkot slew the Grizzley of Grizzley Peak, thereby proving his domination over the storm bear kings of the north. Does this mean that there was no-one following Odayla's ways afterwards among the Vingkotlings or Gray Age Heortlings? I don't think so. I don't see any ursine recovery anytime in the Imperial Age.

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

If Eiritha is similar to Waha and Storm Bull in terms of provided magic then the majority of praxians would know some rune magic in addition to spirits.  They will have more spirits than the typical Heortling but I still think it an error to view the Praxians as spirit worshippers.

The Praxians are a culture with a strong proportion of spirit worshippers (besides the Founders/Protectresses and Ancestors). Storm Bull isn't an example for anything but non-conformity, but the point that Waha offers rune magic is telling. I think that Eiritha offers rune magic, too, possibly even more so if worshipped at the Paps. That's what Great Spirits can do (again, as in the times of RQ3 Gods of Glorantha). Someone with RuneQuest Sight might be able to tell whether this is divine rune magic or powerful spirit magic using modes similar to divine magic while being shot down with that magic for being a God Learner. An ability like Spirit Block wouldn't be too useful against such magic, but that's similar to approaching the sun with nothing but weak sun blocker as protection.

Ok, so we who were trained to say Great Spirit maybe aren't supposed to do that any more. I am happy referring to the great gods/spirits of the Praxians as giants (excluding Storm Bull, including Genert and his followers), treating them as a separate group of entities from the Storm Tribe fusion of Ernalda's peoples and the Downland Migration and subsequent adoptions of Orlanth or from the Earth Walkers of Peloria carrying that fire component within their earhy giantness. Ultimately all earth points back to the one earth of the Creation Age to Green Age, so there are links of kinship.

There is a wealth of Praxian spirit societies that outshines the few ones found among the Heortlings. I have little to no idea what and how exactly the Aramites worshipped in the Dawn Age. All I know is that pigs were involved, and that their heroic leader was the lover of Kero Fin. I know that there were humans that followed the Kitori leadership in worshipping entities of Darkness without getting the conversion into the likes of Ezkankekko, and one remnant of those could be the Torkani of Sartar, a fringe Heortling tribe much like the (lesser) Kitori themselves.

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That's contigent on whether the Imarja writeup in Heroquest 1.0 is still active.  It never made much sense to me and viewing the goose as a symbol of transcendental awareness is always going to sit oddly with anybody who has been mugged by one.

Think of the Golden Egg myths/fairy tales rather than the feathered watchdogs. Add a pinch of Swanlake (different white bird, I know, but still). The reality of bird behavior doesn't have to do anything with their projected image, as anyone watching doves at a railway station or city square can attest.

My views of Imarja as an enemy deity of Orlanth and Vingkot have been painted by the destructive ways of the Grandmothers of Nochet, but with the recent re-definitions of Illumination I see Imarja as the Ernaldan path to either illumination or (in case of the Grandmothers) occlusion.

If a wife or mother-in-law cannot handle a dominant husband doing stupid stuff, mariticide is not and has never been the way of Ernalda. Sending him to Hell by other means (to get his stuff straight again) is ok, though. The murders of Rastagar or Finelvanth or even the Bright Lord of Tharkantus all are major failures which made the world much worse places (if only outside of Nochet). Doing so in the name of Imarja is ironically similar to the story of her descendants killing her (Esrplia p.24).

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's more to mysticism than just big wild spirits.  For something to be a target of transcental devotion, you have to have a bunch of people sitting around meditating upon it.  Orlanth has that.  Yelmalio has that.  I don't see it for Velhara and Imarja.

I didn't name Velhara (or Arachne Solara) as the object of a sect of mystics, but as a transcendent entity beyond rune magic and ordinary sacrifice. Still, there are rites, and there is magic in these rites.

I do see Imarja as an access to a transcendent entitiy through but beyond primal Earth. As with all illumination, this isn't a good thing to worship paired with ambition or revenge. I have come to think that this is ultimately what the earth sovereignty stuff is about, though.

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Basmoli are mentioned in the Vedlt (Guide p589) and mention that their god went northwards.  If the Zaranistangi can make it from Fonrit to Teshnos and the Men-and-a-half make it from Laskal(?) to Prax, then the Basmoli should be able to make it from the Vadelt to Seshnela and Prax.

Basmoli are mentioned in the Veldt, as are Men-and-a-half. Both end up in Genert's Garden/Prax. Basmol is killed there.

What I don't find is how Basmol invaded Ernaldela.

I do buy a fiwan origin of Praxian Basmol. Occam's razor suggests that the routes of the men-and-a-half and of the Basmoli would have been similar from the veldt to Prax. The first agimori to arrive in Seshnela are the Pithdarans, though. And they don't show a marked similarity to the lion warrior bands, do they?

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Enerali are not Hsunchen but Orlanthi.

 They are the civilized version of the Galanini of Ralios, and became Orlanthi only long after their first contacts with the Lightbringer missionaries. I see a distinct parallel between Likita/Basmol/Pendal and Green Lady/Galanin/Eneral. All the way down to serpent imagery.

The Enerali maintained their own civlisation of Hrelar Amali as the Gray Age point of civilisatory origin. King Dan's rulership may even have made that period a Silver Age to them.

It is during the Gbaji Wars that we find the Orlanthi of Otkorion (?) as tutors for Arkat. I don't know for certain whether these are Enerali or immigrants from council lands through Kartolin Pass, or a crossbred pool of both groups. (And there is the lingering presence of Kacha/isti that can hide among Hykimi, Enerali, or among the populace of the earth temples. To return at least once to the original thread...)

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

If the two communities worship the same god with the same name then they share a common ancestor.  If the human types differ then a possible explanation is that they acquired the human forms _after_ they became geographically separated.

So the Harandings, the Aramites and the Mraloti of Ramalia share Mralot or someone related to Mralot as an ancestor? Bisos and the Enjoreli are related?

We find three distinct groups of beast shape men - the Hykimi of the Great Forest in the West, the Fiwan of Pamaltela, and the Korgatsu Hsunchen of the Shan mountains and beyond. As it happens, the Hykimi share the Wareran type, the Fiwan the Agimori type, and the Korgatsu Hsunchen the Vithelan type.

They do share the same Gods/Great Ancestral Spirits. The Four Original Companions may vary, the extent of draconic manifestation varies (strongly in post-Darudan Kralorela, rather lame in Hykim/Mikyh, and not quite explicit in Amuron). The beast languages spoken by the humans with the same (or very similar) beasts are the same across the continental divides.

(We find the almost the same Earthmaker story as among the Fiwan among the Doraddi and the Thinobutans.)

If the appropriation of a proper human racial type is a later development than the original two-leg/four-leg alteration (maybe with a humanoid beast form not unlike the cinematic werewolf), then maybe we have these three distinct groups through different admixture of humans of the appropriate racial types. Humans that were around prior to the Storm Age demigod spawn proliferation. (Or we would see Veldang-shaped Hsunchen?)

For the Hykimi the Kachasti could be a candidate, or the indigenous earth worshipping humans of Seshna, Ralia etc. (also the source for the Dureving element among the Orlanthi). Such an admixture might also explain the peculiarities like Hykimi cities etc. that we don't find in either Pamaltela or beyond the Shan Shan.

For the Korgatsu Hsunchen, we find Allgiver as the shape-defining intervention for the semi-human offspring of Wild Man, with Aptanace defining the proper human appearance. I do wonder how Daruda and the humanoid dragon shape went along with this, though, before we end up with the ancestors of the modern Kralori.

No idea where to place the human shapegiver for the Fiwan. From the sixteen types of Thinobutans? From the Agitorani? And what of their cultural inputs?

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Except that the original wizards were all Brithini, born and not made.  The only people with the ability to make new wizards in significant numbers the Dawn Age are the Hrestoli.

I dare say that the most wizards the Hrestoli create are by birth from the zzabur caste. I don't have names for wizards of Pendali stock, although evil sorcerers/witches do appear.

Wizards by conversion? Okay, there are the Vampire Lords of Tanisor. An example of how not to do it.

The Jrusteli add Timinit and Pithdaran wizards.

The Hrestoli seem to have something like caste adoption upon conversion. My data for Dawn Age Akem is basically non-existant. The Pendali conversion is at first via the Seshna Likita cult, no idea, whether their priestesses were numbered among the zzabur caste. If so, a widespread breeding potential was added to the zzabur caste. I have the (unfounded?) idea that ancient Brithini/Malkioni society might have had a distinctly non-equal distribution of genders, with the Menena caste not necessarily significantly larger than any of the other castes. Bringing in the Likiti may have altered that to 50-50.

But the role of women in Brithini and Malkioni society is a different topic altogether. Except that we are talking about the addition of two male deities to the Lightbringers, here. It is always "sons of Malkion".

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Personally I would drop any mention about theism and animism in such analysis as it's reliant on outdated materials.

I used the terms for the three systems recognized by the God Learners.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Kolatings aren't what you call a distinct culture but rather part of the Heortlings.  

Yes. They are the spirit talkers among the Heortlings, and members of the spirit societies are not separated by clans from cult members performing sacrifices. They do recognize that spirit talkers and rune cultists use different forms of magic.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Odaylans are in Peloria in the Dawn Age.  Individual Odaylings will have ranged far and wide even to Kethaela but I think it a mistake to think of Odayla hunters as being an actual cultural presence in Kethaela.  Yinkin maybe but not Odayla.

Unless we want to replay the subcultitis of Thunder Rebels and dig out Ormalaya, there is Odayla as the default cult for the bow and trap hunter.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I'm dubious as to whether Praxians could be analysed solely as animists considering that of the two described for HQ2/Glorantha, both Waha and Storm Bull have Rune Magic as well as spirits.

I didn't suggest that the Praxians are solely spirit worshippers, only that they are a group of spirit worshippers.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I don't recall any reference to Elemental Tribes among the Hendriki.  The Five Foreigner Tribes (History of the Heortling Peoples p65) may be elementally divided but since one of them is the Durevings, I feel the theory needs a wee bit more development before it can be regarded as fact.

The Hendriki see themselves as Storm folk (including Earth). They might see the Fisherfolk at their coast as Sea Tribe folk, and the Caladralanders across the bay as Fire Tribe. The Kitori (including human followers not partial to the deeper secrets) are of course of the Dark Tribe.

True, Orlanth possesses conquered magics from the other tribes - the four magic weapons subcult.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

For Imarja, I would prefer to describe her as a heroic bringer and teacher of Vithelan Wisdom rather than a mystical religion.  

Apart from a possible keet connection which I really don't want to see, I have come to see the goose as Ernalda's (or rather Greater Earth's) celestial aspect with transcendental insight. A state of illumination.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I doubt that Velhara the Lady of the Wild is worshipped as a mystical religion, instead she's a spirit representing that which cannot be tamed.

I named Velhara rather than Arachne Solara as the transcendental link for Dragon Pass. At this time we still have the Necklace of Kero Fin, and the Aramites as a human tribe among the Heortlings. There is no Beast Valley yet, but there is the ancient megalithic structure of Wild Temple, and there are certain spirits and creatures of nature going there for their wild magics. Probably no centaurs, yet, at least not in significant numbers. Sentient beasts, nymphs and the like.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Assuming that you have shifted from the Hendriki to the Eleven Beasts Alliance of Fronela, I wouldn't describe the Theyalan missionaries as inclusive.  That would mean they were intending to incorporate Hykimi rituals into their own practices which doesn't sound right.  The Theyalan missionaries were teaching their own mysteries and I doubt there were any similar stories between them and the Hykimi (the Talastari who did have similar stories which the missionaries used had been Orlanthi in the Storm Age).

As to the wisdom that the Theyalan missionaries taught, I think it not about element forces but 1) Sacrifice to the Gods, 2) the I Fought We Won Secret and 3) Theyalan farming and other practices.  The distinctions between the Living and the Dead was, I think, a Gray Age concern (ie Daka Fal) rather than a Dawn Age One.

Actually King Heort, and yes, a Gray Age concern among the Theyalans. A Dawn Age concern for those who received their missionaries in a state of continuing Darkness. I think that the Lightbringers actually separated the Underworld from the Inner World where they spread their news to peoples who had no other pre-Dawn activities.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I would prefer to describe the Pendali as a fusion of Basmoli (who were Fiwan from Pamaltela rather than Hykimi) and Likiti cultures.  Yes, they could worship the earth without harming their Basmoli lion-worship traditions but a slight wrinkle to all this is that Basmol is Dead.

I find no hard evidence for the Basmoli migration from Pamaltela to Seshnela, and I regard the Pendali, Enerali and Enjoreli as home-grown Hykimi cultures who managed to have a Gray Age history. We find several types of Hsunchen in different human racial types - the Damali of Kralorela/Teshnos vs. those of western Genertela, the bat folk of Teshnos vs. Pamaltela, etc., without being given a migration story as explanation.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Serpent Kings did not IMO combine worship of the Earth with Brithini sorcery as their Malkioni magic was Hrestoli in scope.  What they would have had was a majority of people worshipping Likita and related gods while the Hrestoli and wizards viewed themselves as having withdrawn from worship of these Gods to proper union with the Invisible God.  Only after the demise of the Serpent Kings were the actual Malkioni numerous enough to argue that everybody should be Malkioni.

I don't think that Hrestol changed the magic of the wizards of Frowal or Neleoswal significantly. The knights may have tapped somewhat into the pool of magic channeled by the wizards from their congregations by building up congregations of their own, but the wizards remained as caretakers of the magical needs of Frowal and Neleoswal. They lost some magic to Seshna Likita, but this was more than compensated by the conversion of Pendali cities, bringing the Likiti portion of those cities into the fold of their wizardry.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I wouldn't describe the war with the Pendali as being rooted in hostility to Hykimi beast magics.  The Serpent Kings were hostile to the Pendali as they resisted their rule.

Looking at the occupations of Seshnela, we find a consistent association of invaders and hostile beast magics. The colonies Frowal and Neleoswal faced extinction by the Pendali, and later invasions were seen as the same kind of bad. The Vampire Kings of Tanisor were about the only non-beast shaped enemy that faced Seshnela.

Earth magics are viewed as beneficient or neutral, while beast magics are seen as aggressive. True, the Seshnegi may have exploited that aggression themselves:

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Lion Society of Seshnela may have had its origins in friendly Basmoli willing to fight alongside the Seshnegi and their shape-changing practices evolved over the subsequent centuries to whatever they have now (both Rindland and Tanisor are described as semi-barbarian Guide p405 which sounds like something Rokari wizards approach by looking in the opposite direction).

I am undecided whether the lion society was emulating the shape changers or whether it was similar to the wolf skin-bearing followers of Argrath in Argrath Saga who had destroyed the Telmori and conquered some of their magic. Do they have beast brothers fighting alongside them (which would be the Basmoli practice, with the humans taking whichever shape is best suited for a situation), or are all their lions shape-changed humans?

I see some evidence for lion-slaying hunts as kingship rite among (old) Hrestoli Malkioni, which may have made it into Carmania. This could be a hsunchen- or Odaylan-like self hunt, or it could be the re-enactment of overcoming the Pendali threat as a crown test.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I hardly think what was written for RQ3 Gods of Glorantha over twenty years ago is relevant to the Eastern Isles today.  All it may have been meant to indicate was that they had exotic magic not otherwise described.

The Eastern Islanders do have sorcery but it is hardly combined with the Island Gods.  There are three groups 1) the Sages, 2) the Valkaraians and 3) the low Sorcerors after Martalak.

Do the sages really qualify as "having sorcery"?

Under the strict three worlds model, a lot of the "mystical martial arts" stuff was considered to be sorcerous in nature.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Not to mention that it was originally the God Learners who first classified magic into one of three types (latest version Guide p135).  So what did Gloranthans think about magic before?

Let's take a look at the Dawn Age domain of what would become the Hendriki, then, where we have Ingareen sorcerers alongside Esvulari blenders, Esrolvuli and other Heortling theism, and Kolating, Odaylan, Kyger Litor, Gorakiki and Praxian animism. What we find first and foremost is a division of magics into the elemental tribes or (in case of the Ingareens) exclusion of the elemental tribes (moon? what are you talking about?). There are mystical or transcendent religions, like Imarja or Velhara, that are subsumed in the Earth sovereignty.

People may have realized in dealing with nature or otherworld entities that some of these are better suited to shamans dealing with them, others better suited for godtalkers, and yet others exhibiting strange properties similar to the workings of the sorcerers. That said, shamans are spirit worshippers trained to deal with non-spirits using the shamanic mode of magic, and sorcerers are trained to dominate godlings or spirits, Holy men of Orlanth know how to fight just about anything, and holy women of Ernalda know how to woo just about anything, or how to have ceremonies to banish things. They all concentrate on the individual powers exhibited by an entity rather than a classification.

The Theyalan missionaries who came from this culture were inclusive - they didn't stress differences with Hykimi practices when they encountered them, but sought similarities in their stories and the approach to the elemental forces while introducing their mode of sacrifice as a way of dealing with the changed rules of Time. Things like a clear distinction between the Living and the Dead were much closer to the problems of the magicians of the Dawn Age than a distinction of worship modes.

The Brithini emigrants of Frowal were faced with the Pendali Hykimi (what we now call hsunchen beast folk) and Likiti (serpent earth temple) magics. There was no notion that combination of Hykimi and Likiti ways would render the hsunchen mode of magic invalid even though the Likiti magic was rather similar to the Ralian Green Lady or Esrolian Ernalda. The Serpent Kings combined the earth magics and the Brithini sorcery without any hesitation but were hostile to the Hykimi beast magics - their magical efforts may have been behind the incompatibility we observe in modern Glorantha.

Nothing official, but here's my two cents.

1) The physical object is the container for the energy flow from the sorcerous realm. A sufficiently advanced sorcerer might be able to hold onto the energy directly, but I wager such an ability will come with a cost. Probably a cost in humanity.

2) Rituals, props, material components all are means to make a magician's life easier. In a lot of spells, these things pull the threshold for succeeding in the spell low enough that a practitioner can manage to set it off.