Joerg

There are numerous waves of pirate/emigrant fleets emerging from Ygg's Isles. The natives there are sailors by necessity and kept destitute by Loskalmi design.

The magic of creating the wolf spirit figureheads appears to be passed on among the Yggites. They can use the lumbering outposts on the fringes of Winterwood for preparing those fleets.

Gothalos in the northern Jrusteli archipelago is an Yggite stronghold which doesn't manage to do much piracy because the Orange Guild dominates the waters. I think that the guild employs Yggites for their navy without giving them command of their ships.

In the Pasos Isles, Ginorth has a sizeable colony of Yggites, and probably its share of wolf pirate ships. Their Luathan neighbors keep official fleets away.

Threestep Isles have the next largest sedentary Yggite population since way before Harrek joined them. The local wolf pirates probably are only 50% Yggites, with many coastal entrepeneurs in brigandy joining up with smallish fleets after falling foul of coastal navies ransacking their hideouts. Upon acceptance their ships are retrofitted animated figureheads.

I think that the Pamaltelan branch of the Wolf Pirates is instituted by Harrek in Laskal around 1622. They will raise local crews while Harrek continues his circumnavigation and Genertelan adventures.

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

 Rokarism is a movement to restore the ancient glories of the West, while avoiding the abominations of the God Learners (who are viewed as an inevitable byproduct of Hrestol's teachings).

I wonder if Hrestolism wasn't a return to the opportunity for everyone to participate in the philosophical process of deriving insights from the logics.

The six ancient tribes of Danmalastan defined themselves by a certain intellectual pursuit - writing, building, sailing, speaking, discovering and cogitating. It doesn't look like the castes were present in these tribes from the start. And even if they were, in the ancient world (or more precisely, in ancient Athens) the lowly farmers and cobblers could be highly regarded (or despised) philosophers. A man was expected to contribute to philosophical debates as much as he was expected to contribute to the polis. Those who didn't were idiots (selfers).

The Rokari wizard caste doesn't seem to like it when warriors or serfs pursue original thought or philosophy. They may be acutely aware that there aren't any great wizards like Halwal or Yomili around any more, even though they appear to have the chain of veneration control at the heart of their power and pursuits.

The (old) Hrestoli society appears to have a widespread basic literacy - enough to trail the scripture with your index finger. (I'm not so sure about the New Idealist Hrestoli degree of literacy, they may have reserved the the Rs (reading, writing and (a)rithmetics) for the knightly curriculum.) I don't think there was a concept of serfs in Malkioni lands, although the barbarian lands (like Rindland or Slontos) probably reserved such a status for the indigeneous non- or not-quite-Malkioni.

The only grassroot participation the Rokari want is in the chain of veneration, the magical support of their wizards.

Now compare the vibrant intellectual exchange and debate in the 13 colonies of Jrustela in the years before the arrival of the Abiding Book, and the enthusiastic popular reception of that scripture, and the various schools about how to approach it.

I doubt that the stodgy linealist Hrestoli of the southern provinces of the Kingdom of Tanisor named Seshnela retained much of that spirit after observing most of their neighbors being drowned, but they appear to have been a haven of liberal thought compared to the strictures of the Rokari dictate.

I wonder where the Pithdarans stand (and stood). They have always been proponents of an ascetic pursuit of the philosophy, and the last defender of pre-1049 orthodoxy was Yomili. Practically all modern Malkioni schools in Genertela can nod towards Halwal, Yomili's contrahent, for formulating their stances against the God Learners (foes of Yomili as well). Yomili was a staunch (old school) Hrestoli but loyal to the imperial crown.

I wonder where the Pithdarans stood in the battles of Bailifes. From the Seshnela  color plate, we can infer that they now follow the Rokari school. However, they are located in Nolos, which has managed to remain outside of the king's direct influence for the time being.

If you look at the possible subjects of Tapping, you may find that the restrictions are mostly directed against tapping fellow human beings. The Tapping of animals, crystals, spirits or the land would be a different topic, and I feel that this would be a common practice for sorcerers in the field, away from the congregations that support the wizards at home.

1 hour ago, Baulderstone said:

The oldest known occurrence of the word "knight" in wiriting comes from an 862 Old English translation from Latin of Orosius' Seven Books of History Against the Pagans (the original was written between 414 and 416). The first use of "knight" (well "cniht" as it is written in the text) is applied to Marcus Curtius, a devoutly pagan Roman soldier who died in 362 BC. 

In it's earliest usage, it's a term to describe a boy in service to another. This service may be military in nature, but it doesn't need to be. It isn't until the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles of around 1100 that it takes on the connotation it has today in English. It's continental Germanic equivalent, "knecht" came to mean a servant, farm laborer, or stable boy. 

And speaking of it's Germanic origins, it is a word that the Saxons brought to Britain before they even converted to Christianity. 

Knecht also means able-bodied man, and as Landsknecht means Man-at-Arms. The German term for knight is just like the Latin/French/Spanish one simply rider or horseman. Looking at the Malkioni innovation of riding warriors, mixing prerogatives of the talar and horal castes, the connotation of horse warrior these languages bring are spot on. Persian or Indian mounted warrior nobility fit that same bill, too, and date back into earliest Iron Age.

I am not sure that researching these terms linguistically will further our Gloranthan understanding.

1 hour ago, Baulderstone said:

The word "church" is also Germanic.

True, it is Germanic in the use for ecclesia. Actually, church or Kirche or kirk are derived from Greek kyriakon "belonging to the Lord", which appears to have been used by the greek-speaking early communities around the Mediterranean.

The early Germans didn't really have a concept for a sacred enclosed building (even though they kept using the megalithic graves and sacrificial stones - no stone circles on the Germanic lowlands). They had places of sacrifice, often using inspiring natural features (trees, boulders) or inherited from earlier cultures, possibly in an enclosure. Now where have we seen such a description before?

Right, the Orlanthi.

But back to the Germanics - they had basically no contact at all with the Greek language, so there would be no pre-Christian opportunity to adopt the term kyriakon.

1 hour ago, Steve said:

There's a very big difference between representing Christianity in a pseudo-historial "real-world" RPG setting where Christianity was present, and doing the same in a Bronze Age fantasy world, surely?

Sure - why should one do the latter?

The West has been described as

Materialist (Cults of Terror)

Monotheist (RQ3 Gods of Glorantha)

Kingdom of Logic (various).

Of these three, only the Monotheist label has a tendency that could be read as Christian. Or, in a Bronze Age context, Jewish.

Earliest explicit mention of the Malkioni West appears to be in the Cult of Issaries in Cults of Prax, the Garzeen subcult tying in with Fenela, sister of Hrestol. Curiously using materialism in the negative:

Quote

Garzeen looks rotund and bearded, and often shows his wealth and status with excessive dress or luxury. With this he once hoped to attract Fenela, a daughter of King Froalar in the west. She scorned such materialism, and even more distrusted the advances of a god, fearing infidelity after a time.

We do inherit the term knights for Hrestol and subsequent Malkioni. This could look Christian. But then, e.g. Charlemagne's stories tell about Saracen knights. So does the Saladin myth. And we get pagan knights in the Arthurian legends based on the Welsh originals of those myths.

And then there is the rather unique name of church for the various groupings of Malkioni in the RQ3 and subsequent material. The only term I find almost exclusively used in Christian context among these, describing a monotheist organisation of veneration without sacrifices. (There are other, even non-religious organisations like the Scientologists who use this term, too.)

Scant evidence for a Christian parallel in the official material. Except in what the readers from a predominantly Christian background make of it.

Straying into the bad old days of 'tis/'taint here...

Hunter god of the Dawn Age Heortlings:

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Odayla is the default subcult now.  He wasn't necessarily so in Dawn Age Kethaela.  And another hunter among the Orlanthi is Siqwend/Siwend as per book of Heortling Mythology.

Siwend looks like another name for Ormalaya, albeit a distinct point is made for archery.

We know that Vingkot slew the Grizzley of Grizzley Peak, thereby proving his domination over the storm bear kings of the north. Does this mean that there was no-one following Odayla's ways afterwards among the Vingkotlings or Gray Age Heortlings? I don't think so. I don't see any ursine recovery anytime in the Imperial Age.

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

If Eiritha is similar to Waha and Storm Bull in terms of provided magic then the majority of praxians would know some rune magic in addition to spirits.  They will have more spirits than the typical Heortling but I still think it an error to view the Praxians as spirit worshippers.

The Praxians are a culture with a strong proportion of spirit worshippers (besides the Founders/Protectresses and Ancestors). Storm Bull isn't an example for anything but non-conformity, but the point that Waha offers rune magic is telling. I think that Eiritha offers rune magic, too, possibly even more so if worshipped at the Paps. That's what Great Spirits can do (again, as in the times of RQ3 Gods of Glorantha). Someone with RuneQuest Sight might be able to tell whether this is divine rune magic or powerful spirit magic using modes similar to divine magic while being shot down with that magic for being a God Learner. An ability like Spirit Block wouldn't be too useful against such magic, but that's similar to approaching the sun with nothing but weak sun blocker as protection.

Ok, so we who were trained to say Great Spirit maybe aren't supposed to do that any more. I am happy referring to the great gods/spirits of the Praxians as giants (excluding Storm Bull, including Genert and his followers), treating them as a separate group of entities from the Storm Tribe fusion of Ernalda's peoples and the Downland Migration and subsequent adoptions of Orlanth or from the Earth Walkers of Peloria carrying that fire component within their earhy giantness. Ultimately all earth points back to the one earth of the Creation Age to Green Age, so there are links of kinship.

There is a wealth of Praxian spirit societies that outshines the few ones found among the Heortlings. I have little to no idea what and how exactly the Aramites worshipped in the Dawn Age. All I know is that pigs were involved, and that their heroic leader was the lover of Kero Fin. I know that there were humans that followed the Kitori leadership in worshipping entities of Darkness without getting the conversion into the likes of Ezkankekko, and one remnant of those could be the Torkani of Sartar, a fringe Heortling tribe much like the (lesser) Kitori themselves.

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That's contigent on whether the Imarja writeup in Heroquest 1.0 is still active.  It never made much sense to me and viewing the goose as a symbol of transcendental awareness is always going to sit oddly with anybody who has been mugged by one.

Think of the Golden Egg myths/fairy tales rather than the feathered watchdogs. Add a pinch of Swanlake (different white bird, I know, but still). The reality of bird behavior doesn't have to do anything with their projected image, as anyone watching doves at a railway station or city square can attest.

My views of Imarja as an enemy deity of Orlanth and Vingkot have been painted by the destructive ways of the Grandmothers of Nochet, but with the recent re-definitions of Illumination I see Imarja as the Ernaldan path to either illumination or (in case of the Grandmothers) occlusion.

If a wife or mother-in-law cannot handle a dominant husband doing stupid stuff, mariticide is not and has never been the way of Ernalda. Sending him to Hell by other means (to get his stuff straight again) is ok, though. The murders of Rastagar or Finelvanth or even the Bright Lord of Tharkantus all are major failures which made the world much worse places (if only outside of Nochet). Doing so in the name of Imarja is ironically similar to the story of her descendants killing her (Esrplia p.24).

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's more to mysticism than just big wild spirits.  For something to be a target of transcental devotion, you have to have a bunch of people sitting around meditating upon it.  Orlanth has that.  Yelmalio has that.  I don't see it for Velhara and Imarja.

I didn't name Velhara (or Arachne Solara) as the object of a sect of mystics, but as a transcendent entity beyond rune magic and ordinary sacrifice. Still, there are rites, and there is magic in these rites.

I do see Imarja as an access to a transcendent entitiy through but beyond primal Earth. As with all illumination, this isn't a good thing to worship paired with ambition or revenge. I have come to think that this is ultimately what the earth sovereignty stuff is about, though.

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Basmoli are mentioned in the Vedlt (Guide p589) and mention that their god went northwards.  If the Zaranistangi can make it from Fonrit to Teshnos and the Men-and-a-half make it from Laskal(?) to Prax, then the Basmoli should be able to make it from the Vadelt to Seshnela and Prax.

Basmoli are mentioned in the Veldt, as are Men-and-a-half. Both end up in Genert's Garden/Prax. Basmol is killed there.

What I don't find is how Basmol invaded Ernaldela.

I do buy a fiwan origin of Praxian Basmol. Occam's razor suggests that the routes of the men-and-a-half and of the Basmoli would have been similar from the veldt to Prax. The first agimori to arrive in Seshnela are the Pithdarans, though. And they don't show a marked similarity to the lion warrior bands, do they?

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Enerali are not Hsunchen but Orlanthi.

 They are the civilized version of the Galanini of Ralios, and became Orlanthi only long after their first contacts with the Lightbringer missionaries. I see a distinct parallel between Likita/Basmol/Pendal and Green Lady/Galanin/Eneral. All the way down to serpent imagery.

The Enerali maintained their own civlisation of Hrelar Amali as the Gray Age point of civilisatory origin. King Dan's rulership may even have made that period a Silver Age to them.

It is during the Gbaji Wars that we find the Orlanthi of Otkorion (?) as tutors for Arkat. I don't know for certain whether these are Enerali or immigrants from council lands through Kartolin Pass, or a crossbred pool of both groups. (And there is the lingering presence of Kacha/isti that can hide among Hykimi, Enerali, or among the populace of the earth temples. To return at least once to the original thread...)

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

If the two communities worship the same god with the same name then they share a common ancestor.  If the human types differ then a possible explanation is that they acquired the human forms _after_ they became geographically separated.

So the Harandings, the Aramites and the Mraloti of Ramalia share Mralot or someone related to Mralot as an ancestor? Bisos and the Enjoreli are related?

We find three distinct groups of beast shape men - the Hykimi of the Great Forest in the West, the Fiwan of Pamaltela, and the Korgatsu Hsunchen of the Shan mountains and beyond. As it happens, the Hykimi share the Wareran type, the Fiwan the Agimori type, and the Korgatsu Hsunchen the Vithelan type.

They do share the same Gods/Great Ancestral Spirits. The Four Original Companions may vary, the extent of draconic manifestation varies (strongly in post-Darudan Kralorela, rather lame in Hykim/Mikyh, and not quite explicit in Amuron). The beast languages spoken by the humans with the same (or very similar) beasts are the same across the continental divides.

(We find the almost the same Earthmaker story as among the Fiwan among the Doraddi and the Thinobutans.)

If the appropriation of a proper human racial type is a later development than the original two-leg/four-leg alteration (maybe with a humanoid beast form not unlike the cinematic werewolf), then maybe we have these three distinct groups through different admixture of humans of the appropriate racial types. Humans that were around prior to the Storm Age demigod spawn proliferation. (Or we would see Veldang-shaped Hsunchen?)

For the Hykimi the Kachasti could be a candidate, or the indigenous earth worshipping humans of Seshna, Ralia etc. (also the source for the Dureving element among the Orlanthi). Such an admixture might also explain the peculiarities like Hykimi cities etc. that we don't find in either Pamaltela or beyond the Shan Shan.

For the Korgatsu Hsunchen, we find Allgiver as the shape-defining intervention for the semi-human offspring of Wild Man, with Aptanace defining the proper human appearance. I do wonder how Daruda and the humanoid dragon shape went along with this, though, before we end up with the ancestors of the modern Kralori.

No idea where to place the human shapegiver for the Fiwan. From the sixteen types of Thinobutans? From the Agitorani? And what of their cultural inputs?

14 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Except that the original wizards were all Brithini, born and not made.  The only people with the ability to make new wizards in significant numbers the Dawn Age are the Hrestoli.

I dare say that the most wizards the Hrestoli create are by birth from the zzabur caste. I don't have names for wizards of Pendali stock, although evil sorcerers/witches do appear.

Wizards by conversion? Okay, there are the Vampire Lords of Tanisor. An example of how not to do it.

The Jrusteli add Timinit and Pithdaran wizards.

The Hrestoli seem to have something like caste adoption upon conversion. My data for Dawn Age Akem is basically non-existant. The Pendali conversion is at first via the Seshna Likita cult, no idea, whether their priestesses were numbered among the zzabur caste. If so, a widespread breeding potential was added to the zzabur caste. I have the (unfounded?) idea that ancient Brithini/Malkioni society might have had a distinctly non-equal distribution of genders, with the Menena caste not necessarily significantly larger than any of the other castes. Bringing in the Likiti may have altered that to 50-50.

But the role of women in Brithini and Malkioni society is a different topic altogether. Except that we are talking about the addition of two male deities to the Lightbringers, here. It is always "sons of Malkion".

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Personally I would drop any mention about theism and animism in such analysis as it's reliant on outdated materials.

I used the terms for the three systems recognized by the God Learners.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Kolatings aren't what you call a distinct culture but rather part of the Heortlings.  

Yes. They are the spirit talkers among the Heortlings, and members of the spirit societies are not separated by clans from cult members performing sacrifices. They do recognize that spirit talkers and rune cultists use different forms of magic.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Odaylans are in Peloria in the Dawn Age.  Individual Odaylings will have ranged far and wide even to Kethaela but I think it a mistake to think of Odayla hunters as being an actual cultural presence in Kethaela.  Yinkin maybe but not Odayla.

Unless we want to replay the subcultitis of Thunder Rebels and dig out Ormalaya, there is Odayla as the default cult for the bow and trap hunter.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I'm dubious as to whether Praxians could be analysed solely as animists considering that of the two described for HQ2/Glorantha, both Waha and Storm Bull have Rune Magic as well as spirits.

I didn't suggest that the Praxians are solely spirit worshippers, only that they are a group of spirit worshippers.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I don't recall any reference to Elemental Tribes among the Hendriki.  The Five Foreigner Tribes (History of the Heortling Peoples p65) may be elementally divided but since one of them is the Durevings, I feel the theory needs a wee bit more development before it can be regarded as fact.

The Hendriki see themselves as Storm folk (including Earth). They might see the Fisherfolk at their coast as Sea Tribe folk, and the Caladralanders across the bay as Fire Tribe. The Kitori (including human followers not partial to the deeper secrets) are of course of the Dark Tribe.

True, Orlanth possesses conquered magics from the other tribes - the four magic weapons subcult.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

For Imarja, I would prefer to describe her as a heroic bringer and teacher of Vithelan Wisdom rather than a mystical religion.  

Apart from a possible keet connection which I really don't want to see, I have come to see the goose as Ernalda's (or rather Greater Earth's) celestial aspect with transcendental insight. A state of illumination.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I doubt that Velhara the Lady of the Wild is worshipped as a mystical religion, instead she's a spirit representing that which cannot be tamed.

I named Velhara rather than Arachne Solara as the transcendental link for Dragon Pass. At this time we still have the Necklace of Kero Fin, and the Aramites as a human tribe among the Heortlings. There is no Beast Valley yet, but there is the ancient megalithic structure of Wild Temple, and there are certain spirits and creatures of nature going there for their wild magics. Probably no centaurs, yet, at least not in significant numbers. Sentient beasts, nymphs and the like.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Assuming that you have shifted from the Hendriki to the Eleven Beasts Alliance of Fronela, I wouldn't describe the Theyalan missionaries as inclusive.  That would mean they were intending to incorporate Hykimi rituals into their own practices which doesn't sound right.  The Theyalan missionaries were teaching their own mysteries and I doubt there were any similar stories between them and the Hykimi (the Talastari who did have similar stories which the missionaries used had been Orlanthi in the Storm Age).

As to the wisdom that the Theyalan missionaries taught, I think it not about element forces but 1) Sacrifice to the Gods, 2) the I Fought We Won Secret and 3) Theyalan farming and other practices.  The distinctions between the Living and the Dead was, I think, a Gray Age concern (ie Daka Fal) rather than a Dawn Age One.

Actually King Heort, and yes, a Gray Age concern among the Theyalans. A Dawn Age concern for those who received their missionaries in a state of continuing Darkness. I think that the Lightbringers actually separated the Underworld from the Inner World where they spread their news to peoples who had no other pre-Dawn activities.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I would prefer to describe the Pendali as a fusion of Basmoli (who were Fiwan from Pamaltela rather than Hykimi) and Likiti cultures.  Yes, they could worship the earth without harming their Basmoli lion-worship traditions but a slight wrinkle to all this is that Basmol is Dead.

I find no hard evidence for the Basmoli migration from Pamaltela to Seshnela, and I regard the Pendali, Enerali and Enjoreli as home-grown Hykimi cultures who managed to have a Gray Age history. We find several types of Hsunchen in different human racial types - the Damali of Kralorela/Teshnos vs. those of western Genertela, the bat folk of Teshnos vs. Pamaltela, etc., without being given a migration story as explanation.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Serpent Kings did not IMO combine worship of the Earth with Brithini sorcery as their Malkioni magic was Hrestoli in scope.  What they would have had was a majority of people worshipping Likita and related gods while the Hrestoli and wizards viewed themselves as having withdrawn from worship of these Gods to proper union with the Invisible God.  Only after the demise of the Serpent Kings were the actual Malkioni numerous enough to argue that everybody should be Malkioni.

I don't think that Hrestol changed the magic of the wizards of Frowal or Neleoswal significantly. The knights may have tapped somewhat into the pool of magic channeled by the wizards from their congregations by building up congregations of their own, but the wizards remained as caretakers of the magical needs of Frowal and Neleoswal. They lost some magic to Seshna Likita, but this was more than compensated by the conversion of Pendali cities, bringing the Likiti portion of those cities into the fold of their wizardry.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I wouldn't describe the war with the Pendali as being rooted in hostility to Hykimi beast magics.  The Serpent Kings were hostile to the Pendali as they resisted their rule.

Looking at the occupations of Seshnela, we find a consistent association of invaders and hostile beast magics. The colonies Frowal and Neleoswal faced extinction by the Pendali, and later invasions were seen as the same kind of bad. The Vampire Kings of Tanisor were about the only non-beast shaped enemy that faced Seshnela.

Earth magics are viewed as beneficient or neutral, while beast magics are seen as aggressive. True, the Seshnegi may have exploited that aggression themselves:

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The Lion Society of Seshnela may have had its origins in friendly Basmoli willing to fight alongside the Seshnegi and their shape-changing practices evolved over the subsequent centuries to whatever they have now (both Rindland and Tanisor are described as semi-barbarian Guide p405 which sounds like something Rokari wizards approach by looking in the opposite direction).

I am undecided whether the lion society was emulating the shape changers or whether it was similar to the wolf skin-bearing followers of Argrath in Argrath Saga who had destroyed the Telmori and conquered some of their magic. Do they have beast brothers fighting alongside them (which would be the Basmoli practice, with the humans taking whichever shape is best suited for a situation), or are all their lions shape-changed humans?

I see some evidence for lion-slaying hunts as kingship rite among (old) Hrestoli Malkioni, which may have made it into Carmania. This could be a hsunchen- or Odaylan-like self hunt, or it could be the re-enactment of overcoming the Pendali threat as a crown test.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

I hardly think what was written for RQ3 Gods of Glorantha over twenty years ago is relevant to the Eastern Isles today.  All it may have been meant to indicate was that they had exotic magic not otherwise described.

The Eastern Islanders do have sorcery but it is hardly combined with the Island Gods.  There are three groups 1) the Sages, 2) the Valkaraians and 3) the low Sorcerors after Martalak.

Do the sages really qualify as "having sorcery"?

Under the strict three worlds model, a lot of the "mystical martial arts" stuff was considered to be sorcerous in nature.

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Not to mention that it was originally the God Learners who first classified magic into one of three types (latest version Guide p135).  So what did Gloranthans think about magic before?

Let's take a look at the Dawn Age domain of what would become the Hendriki, then, where we have Ingareen sorcerers alongside Esvulari blenders, Esrolvuli and other Heortling theism, and Kolating, Odaylan, Kyger Litor, Gorakiki and Praxian animism. What we find first and foremost is a division of magics into the elemental tribes or (in case of the Ingareens) exclusion of the elemental tribes (moon? what are you talking about?). There are mystical or transcendent religions, like Imarja or Velhara, that are subsumed in the Earth sovereignty.

People may have realized in dealing with nature or otherworld entities that some of these are better suited to shamans dealing with them, others better suited for godtalkers, and yet others exhibiting strange properties similar to the workings of the sorcerers. That said, shamans are spirit worshippers trained to deal with non-spirits using the shamanic mode of magic, and sorcerers are trained to dominate godlings or spirits, Holy men of Orlanth know how to fight just about anything, and holy women of Ernalda know how to woo just about anything, or how to have ceremonies to banish things. They all concentrate on the individual powers exhibited by an entity rather than a classification.

The Theyalan missionaries who came from this culture were inclusive - they didn't stress differences with Hykimi practices when they encountered them, but sought similarities in their stories and the approach to the elemental forces while introducing their mode of sacrifice as a way of dealing with the changed rules of Time. Things like a clear distinction between the Living and the Dead were much closer to the problems of the magicians of the Dawn Age than a distinction of worship modes.

The Brithini emigrants of Frowal were faced with the Pendali Hykimi (what we now call hsunchen beast folk) and Likiti (serpent earth temple) magics. There was no notion that combination of Hykimi and Likiti ways would render the hsunchen mode of magic invalid even though the Likiti magic was rather similar to the Ralian Green Lady or Esrolian Ernalda. The Serpent Kings combined the earth magics and the Brithini sorcery without any hesitation but were hostile to the Hykimi beast magics - their magical efforts may have been behind the incompatibility we observe in modern Glorantha.

Nothing official, but here's my two cents.

1) The physical object is the container for the energy flow from the sorcerous realm. A sufficiently advanced sorcerer might be able to hold onto the energy directly, but I wager such an ability will come with a cost. Probably a cost in humanity.

2) Rituals, props, material components all are means to make a magician's life easier. In a lot of spells, these things pull the threshold for succeeding in the spell low enough that a practitioner can manage to set it off.

Are the Four Otherworlds separate? They are. The realm of energies and matter differs greatly from the Godworld or the Spirit Plane. There is no mystical Otherworld, btw.

All the four ways of magic address the Ultimate, and apart from the mystics the energies acquire runic flavors through the transcendent runes - and here it matters little if it is the materialist (or rather energetic) view of the sorcerers, the theist view of Great Gods, or the animist view of Great Spirits, holders of the runes. The magic encountered by the mortals of the Inner World is mediated through lesser manifestations of essences, deities or spirits.

Is it possible to worship an essence, interact animistically with a deity or sorcerously with a spirit? Yes. Does the entity mind being approached by a let's say variant method? Probably it is not the best mode of approaching the entity, but expect results.

Are magical modes miscible?

Evidently yes - the Easterners don't seem to have any problems combining worship of the Parondpara with sorcerous spells for everyday magics.

Does this mean that the Cults of Orlanth offer sorcery? No. Do they offer animist magic? Some might, others not. Do the Aeolians contact Orlanth? Sure, if strangely. Do they derive sorcerous spells from Orlanth? Not quite. Do they have sorcerous spells for the realm of air? You bet.

Do the Warlocks mix modes of magic? Sure. They all are "crazed" by magical insights beyond the normal scope of Orlanthi magics. The easterners probably are living in a daze of enlightenment pouring down on them. The Lunars are insane illuminates, or at least one of the two.

The old HQ1 orthodoxy had it that until the Hero Wars, there was no mixing of magical modes - unless you were one of the defiant entities like Storm Bull, Eurmal, the troll gods, Chaos, the Lunars... the list grows long enough to ask why to make exceptions for the few "misapplied" modes.

I do endorse Charles' theory. Humans from Danmalastan turn out to be just mortal humans when exposed to the rest of the world without the protection of their magic and their ancestral lifestyle. If they turn to gods to help them through their plight, can they expect to maintain their immortality? No, why should they.

So, do I have a problem that we find no sorcerous magic in the cult of Issaries? Not really. He probably traded it away.

More seriously, the power of communication is less of what you know (knowing other languages doesn't make you a conversationalist in those languages) but what you do. It is about accepting what your opposite does and says, and replying in a like manner. Having lost their distinctions of caste, the adoption of the theist ways or even Hykimi ways is a logical way out. So, yes, they trade their sorcerous ways for survival.

As I said above, the magic outside of the mystic system is channeled through the runes. The Kachasti connection to the Communication rune may well remain.

And, if there is an entity of another realm that stands for this rune, contact and communication will be made. Sooner or later.

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I think someone just got a point towards Illumination. 

Does that make me a Riddler?

14 hours ago, Baulderstone said:

This is why RPG rule books should be printed on real paper instead of that shiny stuff. I can lightly pencil in errata in the margins on paper without permanently defacing the thing. 

I have given up on marginalia and use postit stickers instead. They make looking up those passages easier, too.

Kachasti or Kachisti? To me the second version feels like bad spell checking...

The Helerings are one of several Storm Age arrivals of warlike demigods whose descendants became mortal humans. According to Revealed Mythologies, the Helerians fought the Waertagi during the Vadeli Wars. They came from the rainclouds, were good with ships, allied with the Banthites and enslaved some Vadeli dragonships and their Triolini attendants.

Before they attacked the Waertagi, the Helerians share the blame for destroying the Tadeniti. However, if they were taking slaves (as the example with the Waertagi shows), they may have done so with the Tadeniti earlier on, too. And while I hesitate to make any suggestion of making light of Vadeli enslavement, I wonder whether the Helerians didn't rather absorb their "slaves" into their own culture, making them disappear as Logicians. Still, this may be the entry point for Lhankor Mhy into the Theyalan myths.

So the original Helerians were shape-changing cloud folk with cloud ships that also worked on the sea surface, who entered recorded history from the southwest and fought the Tadeniti and Waertagi successfully. Whether as allies of the Vadeli or whether the Vadeli simply profited from their expansion by striking at a second front is another question. Neither Valind nor Solkathi are named as allies of the Vadeli, but that might have been an oversight by Zzabur.

After the defeat of the Banthites and the Vadeli in the south, the Helerians disappear from Western history. Enter the Helerings in Heortling Mythology from the lands of Andal which they share with Hykimi folk, in the southwest.

There, the Helerings ally with the seas surrounding Ernaldela to summon Worcha. After Worcha was defeated, the Helerings and the followers of Orlanth meet for battle, but instead Orlanth and Heler become friends (or lovers), and the Helerings become the third Great Tribe of the Orlanthi, along the Vingkotlings and the Durevings.

My personal theory for the Durevings is that they are the Golden Age Earth Folk that preceded the Storm Age. All those handmaidens of Ernalda, all those serpent temples of which two survived into the Dawn (Old Seshnela and Estali), and all those Lowfire husbands and tamed Wild Man giants like Entru or Tada. The people who the Kachasti met on their eastward Speaking Tour. Those who accepted the Beast People protectors to survive the Storm Age and Darkness, like the Enjoreli, Enerali or Pendali - note: not the Tawari, Galanini or Basmoli Hykimi, but the husbandized (or rather shared son) version of these Hykimi folk. Building cities.

Did the Kachasti go native here during enslavement by the Vadeli (or escaping from that)? I think so.

But note how the Speaking Folk and the Book Folk of Danmalastan disappears from the protection of Zzabur, and how we find a Speaking God and a Knowing God joining forces with a certain Storm God.

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

There are no longer any Saints Blessings - Everybody just has spells (or states of being) derived from a Saint's philosophical discoveries.  The chain of veneration still exists although it is no longer called veneration. Once could refer to spells derived from the Abiding Book as being a liturgy but I think the current thinking is to make everything part of general wizardly duties.

I did like the concept of secular orders in HQ1 where e.g. craft guilds had their own (really limited) grimoires linked to their craft which allowed them to use "spells" as an enhanced process of performing their skills. A magic of making and doing - something hinted at in the tribes of Danmalastan. At least I don't quite see Zzabur or other wizards as masters of the flensing knife or the preparation of glue or parchment in order to transfer Vadeli skin into book bindings.

On 11/7/2015 at 10:06 PM, Pentallion said:

I remember well the days when playing D&D got people labeled as Satanists.  Nearly two decades later, MtG dropped their iconic card Wrath of God just to not piss off the American Taliban.  Retconning the west to make it not a parallel to Christianity feels a lot like paying tribute to the American Taliban.  It doesn't really matter whether it's like Hindu, Jewish, whatever, so long as it's never, ever like Christianity.

 

Well, F that S, is how I feel about it.  

I strongly doubt that anybody behind the decision to take out the mediaeval and renaissance parallels spared a second even thinking about those people. The recent Glorantha publications aim at an adult readership and might have to be sold within brown paper bags if they were available in your FLGS in the Bible Belt.

Yes, of the real world monotheistic religions Christianity has been dissected a lot for conflicts and terms that create a familiarity. Crusades, saints, prophets, churches. Blame the card game Credo (which generates insidious insights to the nature and evolution of the Nicaean creed) and the freeform How the West Was One which started the Gloranthan community to work on the West, if you want. Or sit back and read some of the discussions we had in 1993 and 1994 while trying to find a consensus how the West in the Third Age worked. About how not to get lost too much in the trappings of Christianity.

Any Taliban (of whichever creed) are likely to get apoplexies if they read into Glorantha. They won't even get anywhere close to the point where they can make a comparison between the various Gloranthan religions and cults and their own twisted understanding of their holy books.

Just out of interest, what happened to the Chain of Veneration or liturgy or blessings? In terms of magical ecology (or wargaming ressources), are these still a thing?

When it comes to cattle/sheep/similar herd beast herding peoples, it is hard to decide whether they are Storm folks migrating in from the Spike area or native Hykimi groups. The region Bisos comes from is right next to the region where Varnaval led the Andam Horde into Pelanda.

The use of Hsunchen beast god names in Storm folks isn't necessarily an indicator for Hykimi descent, either - the Harandings of Mralothenyi are clearly Orlanthi, but their pig deity bears the same name as the Hsunchen beast spirit we find in Ralios and Ramalia. So if there is a Keftavar, we cannot say whether this is Tawar the Hykimi ancestor of cattle (in Fronela) or another bull god among Storm folk. (Note that Storm folk includes the Praxian Founders and their herds, too, as it does any surviving barbarian culture of descendants of Vadrus with their goats and goatlike herd beasts. At least to the uninformed Monomythist.)

I wonder if there were people who turned into Hykimi to survive the Storm and Darkness Ages. Shapechanging into beasts wasn't limited to the Hykimi - we find both Kodig's and Korol's descendants as shapechangers into beasts in King Heort's stories, and that Fronelan myth in Anaxial's Roster suggests a similar behavior, although that may have been some syncretic myth as the Eleven Beast Hykimi of southern Fronela accepted Theyalan theism.

There is also the question what became of the Kachasti whose Genertelan holdings were in the valley that became the Nidan Mountains. These missionaries/immigrants from Danmalastan penetrated into the Barbarian Belt of Fronela and northern and western Ralios, were enslaved by their Vadeli refugees/PoWs, and then disappeared. Eaten by Chaos always is an option (also with the Vadeli), but an assimilation into the Hykimi of those regions is a possibility, too.

I am certain that the Theyalan missionaries found plenty of myths among the Enjoreli and Rathori of southern Fronela that were known to the cults of Odayla and Storm Bull/Urox, too. Or Esus and Uralda.

Edit: The Battle of Eleven Beasts had beast people fighting on the Council side as well - presumably Praxian allies, possibly Galanini too. There were definitely less than 10 different Hykimi tribes involved (the eleventh being the not quite- or no longer Hykimi Enjoreli, who IMO were similar to the Enerali in their magical origin).

Daka Fal as an exclusive cult, or Daka Fal worship on top of normal Orlanth worship?

Thanks for the reference. To be honest, this is not the kind of "proof" I expected - while Newt makes a great fanzine, bringing up such an obscure aside mention from a personal campaign isn't really helpful.

"troll blood in their veins" - I'll play along and posit that there was a race of darkness-loving seven foot tall people with the appearance of humans that hated Nysaloran missionaries and killed them where they encountered them. Does this mean they have to be related to Kyger Litor?

The Dawn Age knew other man-shaped denizens of the Underworld inhabiting the surface world, like the Shadzorings of Alkoth - hellspawn of Shargash. There is no reason not to have another such race hidden away somewhere in the Elder Wilds. If they were foes of the Bright Empire, there's a good reason why we don't find them any more.

Another possibility could be some kind of vampiric cult that somehow bleeds troll blood into their veins to gain superhuman stature.

Losing the connection to Kyger Litor is a surefire way to get rid of the trollkin curse (doesn't help much if the subject already is a trollkin, though). The example that Sandy Petersen discussed at Kraken are the jungle trolls who lost their Cold to a wound caused by Pamalt.

There is little information on crossbreeding among the races of Darkness.

What we know:

An uzko mother mating with a Zorak Zorani demon will mother a male Great Troll thanks to a heroquest by Cragspider.

Bina Bang mating with the Dehori demon Lord Lurker in Shadows produced the male uzko Pikat Yaraboom (uzko mostly, but beware the demonic Left Hand of Death).

There could be a trend here - Darkness demons are able to father sons on uzko mothers. Unions with uzuz mothers might produce even better and valid forms of uz.

I think that Neep Trollbane might have managed to mate with uzko mothers, but it is unknown whether the Neepspawn were the result of such activity or born from matings with (superior?) trollkin mothers.

There is no data on other crossbreeding efforts other than with the Kitori. A (full) Kitori mating with an uzko mother will father uzko-shaped half-Kitori, never trollkin. If these descendants breed on, they may form a clan that looks like a clan of dark trolls. They don't belong to Kyger Litor without a ritual of adoption, though.

There are no recorded attempts for crossbreeding jungle trolls with dark trolls. The new/rediscovered race of Horned Trolls among some jungle trolls in Pamaltela hasn't been around for long enough to tell whether they can crossbreed with their jungle troll relatives and what would result from such unions, or whether they breed true.

If you go back far enough, the roots of Mazdaism and Brahmanism may be a good starting point for understanding Danmalastan. The Original (Runic) Beings of Danmalastan (including Zzabur) are the equivalent of the gods worshipped by mortals elsewhere, and the Malkioni regard those gods as great-uncles who strayed from logic for personal aggrandizement. The folk of Danmalastan underwent a split when the Vadeli maintained a school of logic that differed from that of Zzabur. Both Zzabur and the Vadeli got uglier and uglier in their means in that conflict. While neither the Vadeli nor the Brithini had gods that could be demonized, they had ancestors that filled that role.

I don't know of a single story where Vadel had a conflict with Malkion in any of his stages. It is always Vadel and Zzabur going at each other with gusto. Zzabur finally expelled Malkion, refusing to accept any guidance other than his own. The Vadeli wars corrupted both parties - the Pelandans interacted with different groups of blue-skinned sorcerers that we cannot identify as either Vadeli or Brithini-related Kachasti (or yet other peoples of blue skin that "learned" from Vadeli, Brithini or Waertagi in their conflicts).

The Malkioni are identified as former Brithini who left Zzabur's influence for a variety of reasons. The most prominent example is the exodus of Froalar to avoid a fratricidal succession war for the position of the ruling Talar of Brithos (basically Zzabur's governor), leaving this role for his brother. This established Frowal and possibly some of the other Seshnelan cities ending on -wal.

That dualistic thought is present in Fronelan sects/schools as well, with the Creator of the material world seen as the demiurge.

The Magi of ancient Persia are at least superficially a class of non-sacerdotal wise folk caring for the spiritual needs of their people, although their original duties included those of sacrificers of bulls. I don't know enough about the Indian caste systems through the ages to comment on how good a Malkioni parallel they are.

The Greek philosophers and their schools are probably the best parallel for the role of the zzabur caste in Malkionism. They adhere to the teachings of their founders without necessarily deifying their founder. Confucianism might be another place to look for.

Depends on how your bases are distributed. If you have a service station near a jump entrance vector, you don't need the ability to last for months. If you spend months patrolling in stealth mode, amenities and provisions have to last, but that's more a pirate habit.

Alternatively, you could have a supply and repair ship servicing the outlying patrols. I would give them a basic duration of about a week if operating near a base.

A System Defense Boat is basically a warship without FTL capacity. They can be any size you want, from hollowed out motorized asteroids with thick crusts of rock to protect the inside to thin-hulled fighter craft that could also be called crewed missiles. Take any class of warship and increase the fighting power for removing the FTL ability.

That said, a typical use of sublight armed craft is traffic control and customs service. If your opponent is a soft target like a freighter, "corvette class" vessels are typical. Reserve some space for boarding crews (if only system pilots or customs inspectors).

Maniria becomes a good choice for a playground once we have a better idea about playing in the Holy Country.

The Trader Princes are an interesting micro-culture - a bit like Greek or Phoenician colonies among somewhat cultured barbarians of wildly different creed, only relying on mule trains and (comparably) heavy cavalry instead of trading ships and galleys. It could be fun playing at the court of the Trader Prince nominally ruling over the Solanthi valley, with Greymane and his sons regularly mustering huge raiding bands luckily marching eastward.

Safelster can be a fun game area. My ideas for Lake Felster feature navies of galleys patroling against pirates and neighboring navies while keeping an eye on the mercantyle vessels (and occasionally their cargoes). If I were to play a game of FGU's ancient Bireme and Galley cosim (https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18789/bireme-galley) anywhere on Glorantha, Lake Felster would be my first choice.

I have fond memories of a play-by-mail RuneQuest game set in Kustria, involving a tour of the Tower of Xud. My character was a member of the Old Arkat Kult Alliance and an initiate of the lady of the lake, a former sailor turning gang leader in the port quarter.

The Esvulari and the Pelaskites from the Vulari peninsula (just northwest of God Forgot) were reckoned to be part of the Hendriki kingdom already in the days of Aventus.

Fazzur chose (or was ordered) to leave the Bandori alone after his victory over Rikard. We don't know whether Rikard claimed authority over the Bandori, or whether he supported (or continued to support) the marchers as a shield against Praxian or Lunar aggression from the east.

I still like the concept of one major fortress holding enough cavalrists to make a sally in force, occupied when the king of Hendrikiland provides for the warriors, and reduced to a self-sufficient skeleton crew as small as the independent marcher "barons" in their own little fortified steads (or more likely steads with a stronghouse to retreat into in case the nomads come in force). I would expect it to be younger than Exilestead aka Barbarian town further north in the foothills. It might have started as a semi-fortified assembly ground for the local levies, possibly expanded into a more permanent structure during or shortly after Andrin the Mover's reign. Under Belintar I expect something like a half-strength to full strength force to be garrisoned here, possibly depending on the availability of mercenaries and the need for them here or elsewhere.

It is a separate County. There are three counties in southern Heortland - Isles, Bandori, Praxian Marches.

The map on p.246 has a clear border along the coastline for God Forgot (also known as Leftarm Isles) towards both Bandori and Marcher County. Given their island location, the inhabitants of God Forgot don't have much to fear from the hydrophobic Praxians.

There are "Brithini" in Refuge - that's their only sizeable settlement outside of the Leftarm Isles. I don't see any evidence for their presence outside ore east of Refuge.