scott-martin

The Kings List entry for Brailach backs up your recollection: the Switch was seemingly successful "at first" so there was a period when they celebrated it as a triumph. 

Odds are good the "old ways Esrolians" weren't initiated into their new goddess and so reported ritual failures right away. They probably spent a few years escalating the known atonement / forgiveness / Sacred Time renewal quests until reaching the end of the line (probably a rare human sacrifice) and finding the system still broken. At that point longer-term impacts would be obvious even to people who had converted to the Westernized ways.

I in turn misremember which goddesses are currently thought to have been Switched. Wasn't Slonta herself one of them? In that scenario she might've gone to Esrolia and failed to sustain the "old ways" crops. Esrola, on the other hand, could have easily wrecked conventional Western household structures in her new land . . . a plague of viragos and better, what the Slontans might interpret before the end as something like maenads. 

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I disagree heartily. Even Barntar, the Heortling Everyman, goes out on a dragonslaying quest to liberate the fertile rains from Daga.

Everyman's draconic encounters (i.e. the survivable kind, for most of us) may be at the root of the dream / True taxonomy that's rarely investigated. It's not hard to imagine scenarios where some dragons were subjected (or submitted themselves) to a version of modern Malkionite demonization and became nothing more than "dreams." This may even be central to Pelorian dragonslayer cults. It's worth thinking about. After all, the West seems to have eliminated overt dragon Truth roughly as well as the North, pockets like Ormsland notwithstanding. With the right charms and mental preparation today, even a Barntar can screw his eyes shut and do what needs to be done.

The West never seems to have learned Fear Dragon, as it happens. They weren't there in the Dream or, to say it slightly differently, their doom was elsewhere.

On the other hand dream dragons may be ubiquitous in the East where they pay attention to dreams and dragons almost interchangeably. "No blame."

45 minutes ago, Evilroddy said:

The Block itself subsides

Genius. "They have nudged . . . that which was unnudgable."

Good moment to bring back all the chaos vectors from Shadows on the Borderland and other scenarios who survive previous player character intervention. Muriah and her gang, the ogres, Thanatar cultists, the vampire of the Sun Dome, maybe even those awful undead lurking in the Krarsht complex. The greatest hits of depravity: if they can run, slither or flop to help free their master they're on their way.

36 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Flood/Deluge may not have been a single event, but the massive loss of formerly ideal living space to rising sea levels has left traumatic memories all over the world, whether it refers to the tsunami of Doggerland, the flooding of the Black Sea Basin or the estuary of Mesopotamia, or the Thera eruption in the Aegaean.

As it happens the Ramalians still hate and fear the ocean, close to 600 years after the death of Slontos. 

IMG the Kill would have had a more crippling cultural impact on the northern nations if their sudden shock demilitarization hadn't opened them up to opportunistic conquest from neighbors who didn't participate and so never learned to Fear Dragons . . . arguably they learned to Hate Bull instead.

As one of the few lingering terms Glorantha still shares (even peripherally) with Chainmail and early D&D it's probably best to let the term go.

At one point people pondered whether receiving a personal star is the test of [superhero] status, so that would be a place to test proposed dividing lines as well as source possible nomenclature.

Ethilrist is the most prominent proponent of the uh hero system in the texts we have so I wonder what he would say about what separates heroes from what follows. It would be quite the labor for an aspirant to separate his practical insight from his tendencies toward confabulation and blasphemy.

22 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Woody. Aldryan superhero????

A lot we don't know about what Errinoru did in the sky, "infinity and beyond" indeed.

1 hour ago, Iskallor said:

I thought all you needed was a cool cape.

It's his cloak. (Joerg beats me to it.)

Who do we know with the Infinity rune that didn't come up via Mastery? Is Mastery the signifier of "Hero?"



 

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Morokanth ZZ cultists without such appetites

This raises the heretofore unasked question of whether obligate vegetarian Morokanth enjoy elf. 

The Anaxial's Roster compiler also claims the donkey originated in Pent before donkey people "populated Peloria," so there are mysteries waiting to be explored there -- possibly an archaic migration that left few traces in the record because it was generally peaceful. (No donkey god appears on the Wall except possibly as the figure now called "Rakenveg," another long-eared trickster.)

The Pent origin suggests to me that breeding mules is original to the garzeens who were geographically situated to bring donkey back from the northern steppe and may be the closest thing we get now to a specialized "donkey tribe." This in itself points to the theology around mules in esoteric Issaries circles: the hybrid is the ultimate reward for novel transaction and also the Issaries priest him/herself living among non-initiates. It is also the soul. Unbelievers, of course, smear the cult donkey as a perverse animal, but let them say what they like. Mockery is free until they get the bill.

Hi Jolt -- the key to the ones in the Glorantha Core Font is here: http://www.glorantha.com/docs/glorantha-core-rune-font/

The Hero Wars Runes uppercase characters are more esoteric. I see the variant "new" Beast (B), "Malign" Earth (E), Inner World / Mortal World (G), Animism (H), Theism (I), Vithela (L), Solar Pantheon (M), "Kralorela" (N), Rokar (T), Lotus Society (X) and will report back on the others here if nobody beats us to it.

We might have to do a little spell trading. Blurring the line between Tilnta and Altina is brilliant and opens a lot of doors.

Ifttala is a daughter of Seshna and so is usually given the epithet "Likita" except for one reference where "Tilnta" is crossed out. By the time she's born they're probably more conventional earth goddesses so you can probably deal with them on that side. Pendal is king of the lion people, her son in some sources, the father of her children in others. (Yet another reason the children of Malkion hated them, and incidentally a kludge for the mysterious MoFo who appears in Lords of Terror.)

Early on there was confusion in the texts between Tilntae and Likitae, so you may find in your researches that the two kindreds converge. Ifttala, mother of Pendal, for example, was once thought to be a Tilnta. I've always thought there was some appreciable difference between them, even if only in terms of religious politics or a primeval distinction between Fertility in itself (Grower) and the Earth cultures that tend to preserve and transmit its mysteries.

"Malkion begat upon his wife sixteen sons and fourteen daughters and these were the first of the race.  They married each other, or other inhabitants of Ontal’s Forest, and soon the race was large.  But it was at this time that Phil(i)a disappeared, and Malkion left his children to find her."

I am intrigued at a source that makes Eleria a Tilnta, but then again, the entire Snodal narrative is weird enough that it gets my wheels turning at heretical speeds. What if Snodal's "uttermost north" was also the heroquest past, I wonder.
 

The archaic genealogies of the Malkioni have a simpler take on Wartain (only "Nelos" as a father) from the one told about the ouori in Anaxial's Roster. Could be two Wartains or Wartain in two distinct forms as the people split into wet and dry kindreds.

There's a "Triolina Wakala" who seduces the eponymous founder of Orphalsland during the Pendalite era. Her father is specified as the River God Ailor.

King Orphals, I hear, 
Was the mightiest of kings.
Eldest son of Pendal, he ruled in might,
Untouched, save by Wakala Triolina, 
Who dragged him to his watery doom.

Of course the "untouched" part is mysterious because he managed to leave Hostar and other "sons" behind before finally succumbing to the siren call below.

10 hours ago, seneschal said:

How was it different from the version(s) we're used to and what made it worthy of a second edition? 

The embedded setting looks better spelled "Glorantha" and not "Glorontha," which answers both questions. Also print runs were small so when the first one was gone they got a chance to fine-tune armor and protective magic, kill the ambush system, etc. And while you're already doing that, might as well insert nicer maps!

On 5/1/2018 at 6:09 AM, Joerg said:

chairs for their chiefs

On earth the most famous "royal stools" belong to the highly urban Ashanti, who even put one on their flag. Maybe if Pamaltela runs backward the Pamalt chieftain is sitting on an ancient and irreplaceable heirloom salvaged from the days we tried living under the roofs of houses.

29 minutes ago, Zit said:

I guess it is not a problem for a trained horse archer

Love it. Now we just need to figure out which armor configurations support that range of motion.

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

So you put the development/discovery of the stirrup into the Dawn Age conflicts with Galanini and Pralori (another major cavalry force near Tanisor), preceding the Gbaji War?

Galanini met (future) Pentan riders in the development that led to Argentium Thri'ile, fighting alongside Praxians. This would have been after encountering Seshnegi stirruped cavalry. How long did it take them to adopt/steal that equipment?

The question is who gets enslaved. If only the horse get's enslaved another bit, that's in keeping with the myth of the fiery, winged and beaked sky creature now bound to the ground.

I do think the basic magical engineering is shockingly ancient in the West. When and whether it was ever cleared for mass horal (or talar) deployment is another story. We may have a new reason why the "knight" or "caballero / cheval / cavallist" is depicted on horseback in some Hrestolite sects who would logically be open to Galanini crossover. 

The question of who broke the Hippogriff and other divine horses is probably a sensitive one.

Yikes double post. Hang on, I'll come up with some content. OK. Looking for the origins of the Malkionite equestrian tradition (where stirrups come from) I see that Sandy has already explored some of this in his Glorantha, which is cool. IMG advanced tack is of sorcerous origin, designed to humiliate and ultimately enslave the Galanini. As such it comes out of "magic." Traditionalist nomads understandably distrust it.

OH and there were centaurs once. They are known for their archery and can presumably fire over their shoulder in as wide an angle as the torso can twist. Pure Horse lives in close proximity to a surviving centaur culture (even if only Remade) so has probably copied whatever FHQ deems usable.

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

For the Praxian mounted archers, the behind-the-head draw would help to avoid sable or impala horns when shooting forward, regardless of stirrup availability. A full forward coverage still appears unlikely to me, so the mounted archer charge would usually come at an inclination of at least 30°, and probably depart at a similar angle, making the charge-retreat pattern a letter v. 

Bringing the horns into it suggests differences in the way each tribe will (or can) apply such tactics, which IMG is MGF. Llamas and Impala are fast and the mount has no natural forward-facing weaponry (Impala in particular only kick backward) so there's more incentive to develop retreating shots.

As they are fantasy animals I wouldn't be surprised if God simply adjusted our seat and their back for a "natural" fit. In this scenario Praxians have several different ways of "walking funny" that we don't talk about because they are violent people who hate being laughed at. It also sheds light on why riding another tribe's mount is never preferable and possibly why the horse is so alien.

Of course I haven't been on a saddle in decades and just realized I know nothing of how the Apache, for example, adopted European tack shortly after digesting the possibilities of mounted warfare. What I really wonder is who in Glorantha can do an "Eskimo roll" and whether their boats have foot braces to make it happen.

14 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Notchet sounds like a tourist who's trying to mangle the language as badly as possible.  Whatever its origins, you can at least make it sound exotic.

Now I'm imagining the pilgrims looking for directions to "Natchez."

I just realized this is how you get a Gloranthan Swamp Thing or maybe in this context a Mulch Monster (if you ever wanted one in the first place). Still shambolic, more tendril than bough as the bugs swarming its innards chew through the hard parts. If anything the insect vector might be more of a specialized Gorakiki Shaman Curse than normal ZZ agenda. It works better dramatically if they are big (full trees) or plural (nasty little rot runners).

For ritual purposes an even rarer version might behave like the D&D "sussurus," a mindless and vaguely vegetative creature whose endless drone soothes all more conventional undead nearby. It must make the ZZ even angrier, so people occasionally decide to make one to get under their skin.

24 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said:

Esrola, at least until she yielded to Argan Argar.

Thanks! And as we all know, she is a completely and utterly different personage from the Asrelia or "Ezela" who loved Orlanth's dad but is not Orlanth's mom.

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Lodril himself may be of pure sky origin, his mountain sons like Quivin or his worker sons (presumably by Oria) are mixed sky and earth, to say the least. So what metal would you expect from their bones? Some kind of bronze. When did this crop up? Probably even before the Biirth of Umath, Plentonic dating gives Lodril's descent for 25,000 YT and Umath's birth for 40,000 YT.

(But then, it is entirely possible to regard Lodril's descent as Aether's insemination of Gata, leading to the birth of Umath just 15k pre-Time years later.)

"Brass" as "upland bronze" in this context is an insight to conjure with. Storm metal where the word for "storm" is "lowfire."

Who is Lodril's wife in the Holy Country?

16 hours ago, Joerg said:

Mostali textiles should shun plant or animal fibres (ot skins), too, wherever possible. Use of such stuff might be extravaganza, like the unexplained demand for parrot plumage in Jrustela.

Mostali should really be unable to cure leather, but then what can they use for their bellows and protective gear?

Their leather is unusual. In a macabre flourish, I suspect that recycling dwarf excreta (including expended cadavers) for industrial purposes is universal standard operating procedure within orthodox colonies. This allows a civilization that values efficiency to dispose of unavoidable byproducts without waste, and it's probably a big part of what the quicksilvers actually do all day. The real philosophical challenge here is how captive or free range "slave rune" species can be swapped in to contribute feed stock and not invite Vegetarianism. 

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

So I am asking what new designs were brought by the Free Men of the Seas, and what native designs did they have to work on?

I've wondered this for awhile (Borostonar experiments with a fairly aggressive oared concept but there's no mention of sail) but it's almost more interesting to test the real limits of the Waertagi interdict (as opposed to the rhetorical claims that "it was always thus, the man of LePlain says so"). What independent seafaring traditions existed that could have made contact with Jrustela and awakened the ambition to sail on their own terms?

Unfortunately Jrustela is (currently) Malasp territory so if there's a direct sea transmission it's an untold story.