scott-martin

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

• Pir the Lawmaker is the patron god of Thubana and the source of its superiority. - I think this is the first appearance of Pir the Lawmaker.  What's his or her origin?  DH would seem most likely given Thubana's tall towers, but could have some other origin.

Elder Secrets contains an odd parable of ancestral Pir, "a woman of ancient times" who provides descendants ultimately fatal magic and receives organized worship at a shrine in an undisclosed locale. While the story feels almost like a fragment pieced in from the wrong notebook, Thubana may be the place.

Heck, enough ergot on your wheat is probably one of the surest ways to get an eurmal if your stead rolls wrong in a given year.

The whole field of "plant disease spirits" is probably relevant here, voralans and their initiatory potions, etc. 

I love Falamal as the vine king apart from the grain goddesses. Sad Minlinster has no overt relationship to Issaries (spare grain equals "beer") but the Elmal lineage is good enough.

19 minutes ago, Joerg said:

This model cannot be sustainable for mortals, though. You end up with a massive overpopulation of non-productive folk unless you suppress female reproduction or you have a means of ensuring female offspring so you get mainly first- and to a much lesser rate second-born sons. You'll still have to feed more administrators than magicians.

This one is relatively simple: even one-child households are rare and excruciatingly few of their women will give birth more than 3-4 times within Time. [talk of "immortals" cut as irrelevant here] The earth witches undoubtedly have (or had) secret knowledge that would play into how and when they transition to "crone" status, etc.

On 8/30/2017 at 8:23 AM, Joerg said:

It is a migratory bird, present in Loskalm only in the summers. Which means it may have been absent during the Ban, but re-appeared after the Thaw. The re-appearance of this bird might have been seen as a sign of a new age of normality and goodness. Summer has returned, and by golly, this brotherhood is going to spread it to all the lands.

This may be one of the better magical frameworks I've seen for that one. Although they had a wealth of migratory birds to choose from so it still leaves the question open, why a swallow and not, for example, the symbolic goldfinch? As you say, the earthly swallow is best known for its ability to soar so high in search of its prey and to eat on the wing. They are also notably monogamous ("swallow in pairs") even by bird land standards, so there may be a hint toward Meriatan's version of tantra / "courtly love" there as well. And they're so chatty that simply getting them to shut up and pay attention is counted as one of the miracles St. Francis -- that one probably doesn't bode well for their mission, but I've never had a lot of faith in Meriatan's effort. Still, maybe the bird chose him and there's nothing he can do about it but mull the enigma GOD has granted.

(Outside the game I have a dull suspicion they're a double pun on the gorgeous Kate Bush song "(K)night of the Swallow" projected back on the Monty Python armored debates over how much weight a swallow can really carry. The weight of the world, apparently.)

35 minutes ago, Joerg said:

1607 he slays the Red Emperor in the service of the Satrap of Darjin, Feathered Eye Woman.

I've never been clear on how he came to imperial attention or was delivered into the Dart Wars without heroquest-level resources. In theory someone waking up in 1594 could build a reputation north of the Janube for a few years and then follow the Thaw downriver to hop one of the new ships or take the completely audacious overland route -- IF they knew where they were going and had a strong reason to go there. The only other mundane alternative would be hanging out until 1599 when the Sweet Sea passage theoretically opens up. It would have been expensive in any scenario.

Presumably there were Lunar agents / slave "recruiters" in the area that early to recognize his unusual "talent" and his early saga is intricately wound up in the Thaw. But how did they get there? Relics of the Arrolian era? I hope they were well rewarded, at least initially.

And then coming home to bind the Bear would have been almost as difficult. While it's tempting to think he personally triggered the 1607 wake-up on the way back in, I bet there's a story there too.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

After all, Ladaral's Mountain appears to be the source of power for Sogolotha Mambrola after the Waertagi imploded it (like they later did Mt. Turos in what became Lake Oronin),

These people sure blow up a lot of sacred mountains. Kind of makes me wonder who Urtiam was and who really killed him, but that's undoubtedly a whole other quagmire.

I see "Teshnon" dominating archaic documents (one possible typographic error has "Teshnow"). One reference to "Melos" struck out and replaced with "Melib." Plenty of Kralor as ancestral king of Kralorela but no Krala in sight, so that may be an interpolation. Ernaldela appears as the regional name encompassing Slontos, Wenelia and the modern Maniria -- I don't care if she was once only a land goddess who came east and made good, she's the queen of the world now. 

And @Tindalos "ket" as fortification is brilliant. I wonder if what we call "the Castle Coast" is more formally Ketos.
 

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

What about my observation that -os usually implies a shore?

First, yeah, I knew it was sticky stuff conflating the variant colony name systems with larger territories -- where does a large -ket become a small -ela? why all these different words for "town?" -- but that's probably going to require a deep reading of the epic of Damol to really tackle. Maybe in a few months.

(And yeah, the -s- in -sket and -sten is probably a possessive. Now that you mention it, I wonder if it buys us anything to read "Danmal" as a corruption of the historical "Damol," in which case things will get utterly weird.)

When I saw the -os list my first thought was the way "Acos" can be used as both the name of the cosmic god (here the Law) and the creation itself: while it's true that the cosmos is bordered on all sides by shores of chaos, it seems to be more directly indicative of the way the palace and its resident refer to each other. There's also the prevalence of -os constructions in coastal Pamalt(ela) and the East where we don't know a lot of land goddess names or the land goddess system may not apply. (Tabling that one for the other thread if needed, but who is "Krala?")

The distinctions between Nele(os) and the modern Nele(omi) -- much less "Nolos" -- have been haunting me lately as well, so there's another data point. (Also: "But we of Neleoswal are not of Seshneg, even though are lands lie within the borders of the goddess Seshna, for we pay our tithes and loyalty to the king of Brithos still.”)

I wonder whether the hypothetical and accursed Vadelite homeland took an -os or an -ela. There is a "Vadela" in the genealogies but as you note, "Brithela" dominates when the land was connected to the continent via Seshnela (Malkion's expulsion path?) and only becomes "Brithos" as it sinks. Maybe -os is the archaic indicator of "island," in which case "Teshnos" may reflect navigator error or a misattribution from Trowjang or one of the other islands. Now it's going to drive me nuts finding all the archaic names of Trowjang and Melib so we can compare.

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

-ela and -ia are the names of lands, from the Land Goddesses (Daughters of Genert and Gata),

I'd buy this in general but even here we see constructions that break the rule: Jonat-ela, land of the mortal hero Jonat. Granted that's a realm formed in modern times so they're looking back for name systems.

Within the archaic West we also see -sket and more rarely -sten (young Ar(g)at described as "Prince of Mannsten") but these are probably constructions to filter out of any pure Theyalan lexicon.

Love it. All hinge on old controversies ("what did Kargan Tor really do?" "who were the early Ernaldites of Slontos?") so I'll sidestep them for now with a few more questions.

Other than the occasional Horalite throwback, the awful "red Vadeli," red-ochre Thinobutan ancestors and the Red Teleans, are there red people extant on the lozenge? 

Do orange (presumably a pure "storm" elemental type) people only appear in Teleos? 

Other than the horrific and hopefully extinct "yellow Vadeli," do the children of Talar have the golden complexion we associate with "Dara Happan warerans" today?

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

It is more complicated than that. Malkion had numerous wives and produced children of numerous hues. Caste association by birth sequence is extremely ancient, and applies only to a single myth about Malkion the Founder. A myth that is rivaled by naming various goddesses as mothers for his variously colored sons.

 

I still want to know where the "red people" who became the ancestral Horalites come from, mythologically and elementally. Do we talk about Malkion having a "red wife?" I doubt they are from the current moon, although there may be a Red Planet influence. It may be as simple as an archaic split between Fire (red) and Sky (gold) that more modern theory resolves.

17 minutes ago, davecake said:

I did not know that Cragspider was originally a dark troll. She was already a Demi-goddess at the Dawn. At what point did a dark troll become an immortal goddess? Her sub-cult writeup in Troll Gods has no info either. 

Everything comes and goes. Perhaps there's an implied "current" Cragspider there -- the ritual position of Witch Nymph of Cliffhome is as much title as person.

28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If we regard Anglo-Saxon as simply an archaic form of English, those terms simply denote an antiquated language. Antiquated compared to what, though? Would the Orlanthi use ancient Vingkotling or even earlier forms, possibly Storm Tongue ones, amidst their current dialect? And would they be aware of that?

Barring a little fast rhetorical footwork, the nomenclature around "Auld" Wyrmish and "New" Pelorian suggests that the sages at least are conscious of languages as evolving structures. They also know several dialects that are extinct outside historical records. They probably bicker about vowel shifts as much as a given story requires.

The evolution from Storm to Sartarite is probably mostly mutually intelligible throughout (RQ percentage), although people will choose more "archaic" or "modern" forms to reflect their goals -- or in some situations, not have access to the full spectrum due to background. Everyday people probably recognize variations between everyday instrumental language, poetic vocabulary, "rustic" speech that preserves non-mainstream forms, court talk, ritual Storm.

28 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Cults of Prax, Aldrya cult:

Quote

Out of likes but these also are true.

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

King Drona(r) and his boar

I don't think Seshna the Likita was the one who taught Father Dro[m]a[l] how to plant, for that matter. But those stories are practically inaudible now.

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Ernalda in some references with Flamal as her consort.

Good point. It's a delight to be alive in an era when the goddess complex is coming to life and so many hero(ine)quest revelations are in play, as though we were walking with Monrogh and Harmast into a deeper understanding of the world.

All of which gets me reopening the parallel narratives built into Fertility and modern Earth as well as my ongoing extended "travel and journey" through Plant. Fitting the "grain" goddesses into the the classic earth cycle pushes them into the Maiden Voria position when Ernalda already occupies Mother. That's fine. Most crops only take a year from plow to scythe, so we literally keep getting older while the girls stay the same age. But the field is not the forest. The Rivals who fight over Aldrya may not be the Rivals we tend to acknowledge in places like Garhound. Falamal may dominate a more archaic generation of the cycle than Genner, even though we now remember the story backward. 

In the bright light of day I'm facing the Frazerian enigma that Pela probably wasn't the original land goddess of Pelanda/Peloria. She's a grain goddess. Or if she is the reason we call that country Pelanda/Peloria, then Plant plays a deeper role in land goddess succession than we may have initially suspected. But if we follow the Plant side of the story then the "grower" mythos dominates. Where in Glorantha does that myth come from? In that version, Aldrya's mother travels under the sign of the hourglass instead of the square. Maybe in Peloria she was Oo-eria, who appears all over the Wall in various phases. But the forests were exterminated up there so it's hard to say.

[Aldrya and the Rivals, Arroin, Zorak Zoran, the Hill of Gold, "Falamalio," the Two Brothers cult, where is "Genner" in all of this? -- cut for sanity]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

calling such a deity a grain goddess

I often wonder where our contacts with blue elves come from. More generally there seem to be multiple earth goddess systems at play here, some of which have a closer track to Aldrya -- the "grain" goddesses like Pela, the Rice Mother, etc. -- and some like the likita complex that don't. I don't know if Aldrya has a mother.

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

That's the problem

All the plus.

10 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Genert didn't just die, he was mauled by Chaos . . .  lucky that we know as much about Genert as we do . . . hid his remains . . . hyena.

What do we have to make out of the absence of Tada from the Battle of Earthfall? Especially if Tada is an integral manifestation of Genert's major power?

Undoubtedly swimming out too far from shore here but again reversing the causal relationships (myth allows us to do that in ways history doesn't) a different story plays out in which the absence of Tada triggers the disintegration of the golden age. The king of the north corner fails "because" fire season always gives way to the harvest and then the dark. When the northern kings are separated from Tada the land requires a sacrifice and the king must die. Normally the land takes a new husband. This time, the cycle failed. 

Perhaps another way to tell this story is to name Genert's queen and who her husband is now.

50 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Genert died, but the area affected was limited to the area between the Shan Shan and the Rockwoods.

This is a great point. I wonder if it bears a tiny tweak:

When Genert died and was not replaced in the great rite of the year husbands, the "waste land" that resulted was such and such.

Side note (for all I know it is DEEP) but when "Pela" and her cognates are weeping goddesses then odds are pretty high that the dead king bears a family resemblance to the god we call Yelm. When the goddesses are smiling the Lodril / Turos / whoever is out of jail and in the house. Of course this is probably a taboo topic for conservative Dara Happans but it's not like I was eager to stay on their guest list.

Where is the footnote that singles out Peloria for being largely unexplored mythic territory for Imperial Age explorers, which is one reason the rebirth of the Goddess was possible there? Away from my books.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

How much Genert will be felt?

IMG the argument tends to go backward: the boundaries of "Genertela" encompass all lands where they recognize a figure identifiable as "Genert." In some places the identification is weak and we may be dealing with mythological "subcontinents" separated from their origins when the world broke. 

That said, I would be surprised if the archaic Frona, Seshna and Ralia venerated in the animal empires weren't weeping for some lost king or another when the first Malkioni found them. Much of Malkioni history may revolve around trying to pinpoint "the historical Genner" and in their imperial phase they eventually settled on the Wastes as the locale where his saturnian Golden Age played out. This may or may not have come as a surprise to the people living there at the time.

Britha may weep for other reasons.
 

9 hours ago, Steve said:

Homer had synesthesia

As we like to say around our house when the Homeric palette comes up, the poet is also generally depicted as blind so "his" color choices may be on the expressionistic side of the rainbow. Where Belintar is concerned he may have started out as "sky" bronze or patina from his time in the water and then burnished up bright once dried and cleaned up.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Storytelling uses non-linear techniques as well, e.g. through flashbacks, possibly nested or interwoven flashbacks. Heroquests or (for stories outside of Glorantha) time travel may alter the anchor position.

Another analogue is that we recall the Godtime in almost exactly the same ways we recall a dream. The narrative feels coherent at the time but in retrospect discontinuities, paradoxes and outright absurdities emerge. Key transitions drop out. Symbols shift when we open our eyes. While communicating our "dreams" -- our non-empirical experience -- can further compound the confusion, occasionally enough similarities shine through that we can work together as fellow initiates.

We, on the other hand, have Glorantha.

Hi Curtis -- 

Good to have you here. The Internet Archive has that one HERE -- of course if you encounter a copy of the original Shadows on the Borderland where it appeared in print, it's worth grabbing. 

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Empowered water creeps onto the land, probing it for food. Water which has given up or lost its power falls down into a puddle, following the pull of [...] heaviness

While this thread focuses on Gloranthan "physics," I love the alchemy this suggests: two water metals, one light and leaping, the other liquid and leaden. The relation between them is a secret.