Ali the Helering

7 hours ago, Jens said:

Divide the skills by 5 instead and you have the basis of Hero Wars 😉

Isn't it interesting to watch games development?

6 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I am surprised to hear that. My assumption was he wanted a Rules Lighter version which, imo at least got us to RQG.

I was very surprised at the time - and totally strapped for cash, so it wasn't good to hear, either!  At the same meet (in London, UK) he suggested an interim approach to HeroQuesting involving dividing all skills over 100% by 10, and ignoring those below, with Rune Magic functioning as Battle/Spirit Magic, and those magics removed.

Oddly enough, it kinda worked for a while....

I talked to Greg about the change over from 2 to 3, immediately prior to the publication of the seminal Gods of Glorantha for 3.  He told me that while GoG could easily be incorporated into 2 (with a bit of care and attention) 3 was far closer to his personal vision of Glorantha.

Personally, I think clues are orange skin, disproportionate hands, money troubles and a tendency to wear baseball caps...

I say this from the (comparative) safety of the UK, of course.  We have pig molesters, rejoice!

15 hours ago, radmonger said:

Slavery and torture are arguably exceptions, in that the corresponding organised cults are, in all canon I am aware of, supposed to be strictly Fonritian.

 

Jolaty/Zolathi, Sheng Seleris' early mystic cult teaches 'All life is slavery'.  A nice steal from Seneca.🙂

3 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

The Romans had a weird attitude towards human sacrifice (in the best spirit of 'of course when we do it's different'). Broadly they were strongly against human sacrifice. During the polytheistic phase they were avid syncretisers and absorbers of other cultures' gods and cults. The exception was if there was human sacrifice involved, in which case worship was stamped out as much as they could (e.g. gallic druids). It doesn't seem to be some moral compunction against it, moreover that they thought human sacrifices were too powerful to be used.

Now hold that up against things like gladiatorial games. Or even better, Triumphal parades (dedicated to their god of victory), where at the climax a captured enemy leader was ritually strangled. Now if that isn't a human sacrifice it's pressing it's face right up against it.

The earliest Roman gladiatorial combats (it is generally, but not unanimously believed) were sacrifices to the spirit of the departed performed at their funeral.  It became something rather different over the next few centuries, but I see no reason to assume it lost that sacred element.

The only place I would disagree with you is limiting syncretism to polytheism.  Christians have always been eager syncretisers.

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

Much like the first commandment delivered by Moses clearly acknowledges the existence other gods than JHV. The chosen people just aren't supposed to worship them side by side with JHV. Whether they may be worshipped as subservient to JHV is not explicitely stated - that there was a female goddess also receiving worship in Salomo's Temple (and other temples) until the reign of Hosiah, if I remember the Kings correctly.

 

You do indeed remember correctly Joerg.  

2 Kings 18, King Hezekiah broke up Nehushtan (A bronze snake allegedly made by Moses) since it was receiving propitiatory worship to ward off snake bite.

In Josiah's reform in 2 Kings 23, the Jerusalem Temple had altars to 'all the starry hosts', altars 'on the roof(?), the chariots and horses of the Sun (Shamash) and worship implements for Ba'al (Zaphan or Hadad probably but not certainly) and Asherah taken out and destroyed.  These were as nothing compared to the 'cleansings' elsewhere.

There is one other very important thing to remember about Asherah.

The text accompanying these bovine-human mixes is "YHWH and his Asherah".  For much of the Late Bronze and Early Iron (at least), YHWH was married.  Amongst other things, Josiah is enacting a divine divorce.

As for WTF that calf thinks it is doing at bottom left 'coz it sure as heck ain't feeding from an udder...🤣

On 2/9/2024 at 12:54 PM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

It's not about simplistic, it's about actual proof.

If you say, 'I don't believe in your storm god!' And I lightning bolt you a couple of times, it's going to give you serious pause for thought.

Even the purest of Malioni believe in Gods, they just think they are jumped up spirits and we shouldn't be boosting their egos.

 

That is my point.  The fact that you get hit with two lightning bolts in the RW is both wildly improbable and a very poor case for turning to the deity of your choice.  It is the sign of a simplistic and weak mind.

That the psalm says "The fool says" doesn't mean it is correct and that the atheist is a fool.  It only means that the psalmist is opinionated.

In the United Kingdom, during the past 30 years, 58 people have died from lightning strikes, averaging about two deaths per year. Additionally, around 30 people are injured annually, according to the National Geographic.  As a Minister of religion (Rev Ali the Helering) I have to tell you that I have never come across anyone who has converted after being hit by 'fire from on high'.

The most recorded strikes on a single human is 7.  I assume the local places of worship have installed revolving doors.

5 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Where has this happened in history?

I am hesitant as to whether this is a serious question or not, since cases abound!

Slavery in the United States and the colonies that proceeded it?  Some of the more oppressive Hindu and Buddhist states?  How long a list do you actually want?

4 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

I think very few in Glorantha argue there are no gods, the argument is whether we should worship them or not, or try to overthrow them etc.

 I see no reason to believe that Gloranthans are more simplistic than RW humans.  If the majority of our ancestors can see that there are obviously deities, but a significant minority disagree, why not Gloranthans?  In the Bronze and Iron Ages the vast majority would tell you that the gods were totally evident.  Atheism was sufficiently strong that it was spoken against in Psalm 14 "The fool says in his heart 'There is no god'".  

On 1/30/2024 at 5:52 PM, Atgxtg said:

Nice! It has a satellite image look to it that must have taken some work to pull off.

I think I may be in love....

(Tindalos always reminds me that love is not a zero-sum game, so I think I am still allowed my affair with the Argan Argar Atlas, and my teenage lust for Middle Earth....)

MGDV, and I would only permit it in legal cases and clan (or above) negotiations.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Care to share some links or examples? We can only benefit from more sources.

I am in the process of completing material for a course on The Religions of Ancient Israel (with apologies to Ziony Zevit whose title I have purloined) which I will be delivering at the College of the Nazarene, and I will happily make it available once done.  They have rather panicked, and have advertised it as Religion (singular rather than plural)😡

I will see what else I can dig out from my past stuff, but unfortunately much of it has transmigrated to silicon heaven after hacking by the friends of a malicious ex-.......

13 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

This article explains it well.

I am afraid that I have to part company with you on this, because while Bret is an expert on matters of mail armour (seriously!) and was a lecturer for a course on mythology (although I really don't understand what he means by 'teaching mythology surveys') for a variety of sessions over the course of three years, that was over a decade ago, and scholarship moves on.

His writings are interesting, but even he classifies some of them as completely one-sided, and therefore I would approach with caution.

My writings and lectures are, of course, completely balanced and utterly rational.🙃

12 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

This is how worship lived and died in the real world. Largely through random coincidence and popular superstition.

I am afraid this is post-Enlightenment rationalisation.  

12 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I was always of the understanding that historic polytheism was quite a practical thing. You did offer worship to a deity primarily for a concrete achievable outcome. This article explains it well.

However, in practice this works out to function a lot closer to what Ali is describing.

Actually, I think you are conflating and inverting the process.  The concrete and achievable outcome IS that you are part of the community, NOT that you get personal sparkly special effects from the deity.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

and to reiterate what Jeff said, cults aren't just packets of spells, they're communities that open up social benefits

Exactly so.

Manchester in the UK, blessed by the persistent presence of my patron, Heler!

41 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In the pre-Christian understanding of the world, if you perform the rites and sacrifices properly, the deity is bound by its nature to comply.

I am afraid it rather depends on the pre-Christian tradition involved.  (Come and attend my lectures in Manchester, starting on the 19th!)   

44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If results fail to appear, another deity must have interfered, and the deity won't receive sacrifices for this task any more as it has become too weak.

Interestingly, even though Christians are (horribly) prone to blame the devil or demons for the failure of prayer to make everything wonderful, very few adopt them as new spiritual mascots!  

I have a 13th century BCE statuette of Asherah, and two (highly evangelical) Christians have told me that they are most concerned that her 'evil, demonic power' will influence my sermons.  Just wait till I start invoking Azathoth....

I think that there is a simple ethos difference here, arising from why one plays/got interested in Glorantha.  Back in the (ie Greg's) day it felt far closer to a RW Late Bronze/Early Iron environment.  I have to say that I have far more interest in that than in the functionalist concepts that have come to dominate the more recent era, which is why I and several other grognards are looking further afield these days.

Therefore I shall let this conversation continue without me, since I don't want to take it down side issues folks aren't interested in.   Grognards unite, you have nothing to lose but your setting!  😁😆

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

what if we DO cynically seek to obtain the blessing?😅 That is what I meant by Spiritual Materialism.😬  We literally only worship the deity because of the material benefits that worship provides.

Seriously though, this requires the deity to be stupid to the point of drooling imbecility, as a willing victim of Pascal's Wager!  In such a circumstance the term 'worship' doesn't apply since the deity has no worth beyond being a victim of manipulation on the level of grooming. 

In such a circumstance the word 'deity' is inappropriate - maybe 'dumb mana resource'? 🙃

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is the PNG model.  

Portable Network Graphics?  I suppose that could be construed as a form of missionary activity....

11 hours ago, davecake said:

I bet you can get them in Nochet.

Eventually, but.... 🤣🤣

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Many if not all tribal cultures have an entirely similar view.  There is no idea that "I have to worship deity X because they are the patron of my profession, even if he never does anything to help us". 

That wasn't my point I am afraid, and if it came over that way I apologise.  The question is a matter of in what way that utility is expressed.  It isn't that we approach a deity to cynically obtain a blessing, but rather that we approach the deity because we live within their 'power-environment'.  This is not least why the early Christians were accused of being atheists - they didn't participate in the 'power-environment' of the empire or the city.  In so doing they laid themselves open to the charge of atheism, which was synonymous with treason.

🤣😇🤣🤣 😇

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

All left handers are secretly serial killers ? Who knew ?

All left handers, presumably?  😁

Come to that, what does this say about the ambidextrous?🤣

A husband-protector rival if you set it in Esrolia?

Anyone who is a cereal killer 🤪

38 minutes ago, radmonger said:

By modern, I take it you mean post-Enlightenment?

The 7M is a specifically engineered cult designed to lead the member to illumination. Which means being an individual and forming your own moral and pragmatic judgements, in a very modern way.

If you consider those faiths that lead to illumination in the RW, they tend to be very heavily bound by ritual practises.  In many of them the individual is understood to be either a flawed understanding or an evil illusion.

Being part of an urban RW religion in the ancient world was largely a matter of acknowledging and establishing your place within the community.  As Jeff said, in the Empire just look up and you will see who is at heart of that community, so it is then a matter of cementing your position vis-a-vis her.

Individualism as a term originates in the 1830s, so the concept that gave rise to it is very far post-Enlightenment.  Almost yesterday in mythic terms.😇