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Ali the Helering
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Posts posted by Ali the Helering
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It is worth remembering that she is a spider goddess. The Glowline is the Lunar web, within which all are bound together, and upon which attackers become stuck and frustrated.
Of course she eats her victims, and of course they are recycled as Glowline, but whether they have any continued sense of self or existence is very much a matter of YGWV. I am put in mind of the late, great Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light and the 'reincarnation' of Mahasamatman, where he was aware of his state of existence and somewhat aggrieved to be called back!
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57 minutes ago, metcalph said:
Monrogh isn't an Elmali and knows Firespeech. How is he going to mistranslate it? I do feel that plain ignorance as a reason for mistranslation is just uninspired. Why are the Elmali promoting such a mistranslation given that they barely know who Tharkantus is at all (he fought against the EWF and Monrogh's speaking at least five hundred years later). What would your preferred translation be? What type of magics do you think Tharkantus provides compared to Yelmalio or Daysenerus? These are more productive avenues for speculation than just a simple naysaying of the source.
The source is actually quite specifically not Monrogh. It is someone recording and commenting upon Monrogh's narrative, unless we are to accuse Monrogh of being a proto-Trump by referring to himself by name in the 3rd person! Please note, I did not suggest plain ignorance, but wilful ignorance, a pernicious and common quality when it comes to differing cultures and religions.
If you want speculation, that it easy. I prefer a RW anthropological approach, since that is my qualification and profession.
Speculation - Monrogh doesn't even know who he is talking about, but is co-opting centuries old names and myths to justify a fresh revelation. Again, hardly original.
Speculation - Dayserenus appeared as a Rinliddin cavalryman (not avilry, interestingly enough), so perhaps rather more avian magic, or at least less Yelmite-syncretic and more Vrimak related.
Speculation - Tharkantus is brought to Balazar. For it to remain as a cult of the cities rather than simply of the nobility, it would have to fulfil a socially relevant role, which cannot be taken as a given in Balazaring society. Yelmalio's magics are not spectacularly suited to the needs of these post-EWF survivalists. Might one look for the anti-Draconic magics of Domanand?
Productive avenues? Perhaps. However, critiquing a source is not nay-saying, nor is speculation necessarily useful except to say that MGW therefore V to the extent that it would be unrecognisable.
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1 hour ago, metcalph said:
Not "that is" but "that could be". Since Monrogh required knowledge of Firespeech, I find the chances of a mistranslation remote. Furthermore suggesting that something is mistranslated and so can be safely ignored seems to be to be a rather cheap way out. If there is to be a gap between the translation and the actual meaning, it would be more productive to explain why.
In the specific cases of Moses, the writers knoew Egyptian (next door) but they were keen on denying his Egyptian identity so as to put forward a spurious origin for his name (similar minded reformers destroyed Moses' bronze snakes for the same reason).
I didn't suggest that it could be safely ignored, simply that it couldn't be relied on. To me, that seems the cheap option. The reason for the gap would probably be wilful ignorance on a vast level, promoted by the native Elmali to diminish the majesty of Yelmalio.
The purification of the Jerusalem Temple that destroyed Nehushtan (the bronze serpent) was performed as an act of monotheistic intolerance, not nationalism. Jewish knowledge of Mizratic is by no means likely by the time that the Torah is being written, since it is not one of the diplomatic languages of the Ancient Near east by that stage. A few merchants perhaps, but otherwise assuming such knowledge is a bit of a stretch.
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Tindalos wrote:
Tharkantus: Th seems to mean spirit or being, as seen in Yuth (Imperial Spirit, or god), the various -gatha names (probably gat-th-a, or spirit home/avatar), and the four Overseers. Specifically the four Overseers include it within the syllable "Arth", meaning overseer (or tutelary deity), which is found reversed here. Th-ar likely has the same or a similar meaning, regarding his role as a guardian of the Sun Domes. I am unsure over the meaning of Kan, although it is also the same as Ken in several other names, as well as Kan.
Metcalph replied: It's translated as the Empty Saving Hearth according to History of the Heortling Peoples p108
(For some reason my 'quote' function isn't working)
Indeed it is, but that is a Theyalan explanation of a word in another language, and history and literature show us just how inaccurate they can be. For example, the Biblical use of the by no means unique story of a hero pulled from a rush boat on a river to justify the Hebrew understanding of Moses as 'pulled out', rather than the standard Mizratic (Ancient Egyptian) meaning 'Son of'.
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21 hours ago, jajagappa said:
Someone could try, but the problem is that Yamsur was destroyed/annihilated by chaos, so its far worse than just dying. Any heroquest that attempts to find him will run into the hordes of chaos, likely with no recourse or escape - there isn't even a god there to save/aid them.
Indeed, he is not simply dead, but gone. I would be more inclined to suggest that any attempt to Quest to him would simply be an automatic fail. Hope, however, springs eternal in the human breast, and some people simply will not learn. Therefore I can well imagine a side-chapel in some Sundomes that is little used & where worship is unproductive.
"Ah yes, well, the lack of response indicates that Glorious Yamsur is too heavily engaged in the fight against Chaos to respond. Let us send him more of our souls to struggle with the krjalki! Have faith!"
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On 14/06/2016 at 10:28 AM, Mankcam said:
Next thing we'll be seeing Glorantha Lego on the shelves...
At least we will then be able to use our vast supply of My Little Ponies as Goldeneyes and Diakos....
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There is no reason to suppose that there is no cult of Yamsur, simply because he is dead and gone. The cultists may simply be misled, very determined, or accessing something that is quite different from their intention....
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I have to say that I have always thought that the Yelmalion gaeasa in particular are sufficiently specific that they should be understood as a demand that tests the nature of the recipient to the uttermost.
"What! Never bathe? Yuch!" "But my legs are my best feature! No armour?"
If you want to look for a RW example, perhaps try Luke 18
A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’” “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy.
I see the purpose of a gaeas as being a test of piety. It may appear random from the outside, but surely Yelmalio knows the weaknesses of every Yelmalion?
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Since IRW ducks devour arthropods and worms, I should imagine that the Durulz would very happily send hunting parties to the edge of Uz lands.
The Gorakiki and Swems priestesses might be used to providing anti-Durulz charms to the herders.
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On 11/05/2016 at 3:44 PM, Tindalos said:
IMG ultimately, the Durulz aren't that related to ducks. Their bills have lips, rather than a plate of hardened tissue. They have true teeth rather than serrated edges, solid bones, etc. They're closer to Hadrosaurs than actual birds.
If the idea of a duck offends your sensibilities, you can always follow Tindalos' suggestion for anatomical differences, and be rigorous in using the term Durulz rather than duck.
I cannot say that I find the idea of talking animals enticing myself, but eliminating the Morokanthi would surely be a loss. Come to that, highly mobile plants sharing in a semi-psychic Song link appear a bit odd. All in all, this is a fantasy construction brought about by Greg's genius and elaborated upon by ourselves. YGWV, so there is no need to include anything you dislike, albeit with a loss to the created whole.
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I ran a campaign where the central character was a Humakti durulz and, trust me, there is nothing faintly amusing about his heroism. While the focus of the campaign has moved on, he still appears occasionally, and is as devoted to the destruction of the undead as ever. He is regarded as a special foe by an entire Shargashi regiment.
Suspension of disbelief? Given Aldryami, Mostali, and the Uz, why does a Durulz go amiss? The only thing he is likely to suspend is an enemy, by their intestines.
When a Durulz Humakti is played well (as he was), they can make the RW Norse berserkers look a little bit too gentle.
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There appears to be an abundance of paper or similar in Glorantha, rather than the joy of clay tablets in RW Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. For real fun, try the oldest maps known!
as examples. Life becomes a bit more interesting with a few lines and only a couple of words here or there.....
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On a more general note with respect to variability amongst the Orlanthi, we should never forget the wonderful gift we have in the 'Orlanthi All'.
When ALL Orlanthi follow one particular way of doing things, that only applies to 6/7 of them, or roughly 85.7% When one starts to consider the possible variants within the other 14.3% there are no end of interesting possibilities. In the intro to the Clan Questionnaire in Sartar, KoH (Page 37) it states "We provide sample answers" (my italics).
If the Orlanthi All were rigorously applied, then by the time one has reached the fifth question then only 51.2% of the clans would have answered the previous four questions as written! If you applied it to the question relating to the deity with whom the clan has a close connection, 14.3% of Orlanthi Sartarite clans would have a primary link to a different deity.
Really, there is room for as much, or as little, variation as one wishes to insert. YGWV, thanks be to Greg.
I am afraid that my question to Joerg regarding the identification with 'possibly one of the deities of the KoI' has been rather misunderstood by some readers.
If it was, indeed, Bodkartu being referred to, that is simple enough. Thank you.
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Indeed, M Helsdon, exactly the reason for my interest. Is there an extra identification in the KoI? Is Bodkartu worshipped there as an antidote to Halisayan of the southern oppressors? My brain hurts....
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5 hours ago, Joerg said:
To me this sounds like Yara is the daughter of the emperor and a Pentan demon (who shares lots of traits with Gorgorma, and possibly with one of the deities of the Kingdom of Ignorance). Sheng is the mystical shadow of the Red Emperor, and vice versa, much like Arkat and Nysalor. Note that the empire after Phargentes JarEelsson was slain was the Shadow Moon Empire.
I suppose again this is down to me tending to read things in the light (or otherwise) of RW religions rather than taking in-world documents at face value. From RW texts the parent-child image is sometimes (but by no means always!) used to indicate the incorporation of a spiritual power from another source. Similarly other familial relationships, on occasion.
One question though, do you mean the Kingdom of Ignorance or the Kralorelan Empire? I ask because I have previously read of a similarity between Gorgorma and Bodkartu, who IIRC is Kralorelan. If the KoI reference is correct, may I ask which one? This might help with some work in the near future! Thanks.
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Quoting the Redline History "The Red Emperor used the secret fear of the barbarians to summon their Goddess of Tormented Death... The child of this union was named Yara Aranis".
This seems to me to indicate that Yara Aranis is the Lunarised form of a Pentan demon.
Therefore I would not expect to find her with any force allied to Sheng Seleris, but can easily see her adapting to fit into Argrath's religio-magical system as a Pentan nemesis.
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1 hour ago, soltakss said:
As Germania was the heartland of the Celtic people, it makes sense for the Romans to treat Celts as a kind of germanic people. To me, this means that tacitus recognises some sort of language similarity between the people of south east Britain and the people of Germania. Having them both as speakers of Celtic languages seems OK to me.
I am not sure how much the Romans analysed languages and whether they split them into our family trees of Celtic and germanic.
I think the point is that they didn't purely base such a decision upon language. That would have been comparatively simple. Rather, they based it upon a mix of language, custom, religion, dress, food and drink, marriage, and an attitude towards war. They also frequently disagreed with each other as do scholars today e.g. the debate concerning the nature & origin of the Bastarnae of the black Sea Coast.
In similar fashion, the Barbarian Belt can be split up into a multitude of different groupings, varied in many different ways. Including religion.
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12 hours ago, M Helsdon said:
I wonder if the belief that the Orlanthi are all very similar is derived more from our liking of labels that provide an easy handle on something, than the reality presented in the canon source material?
Consider, for example, the label Keltic. Whilst there were very general similarities from north to south, to east to west, the cultures we call Keltic displayed a very wide variation in time and in space. However, if you could go back to the second century BC and could talk with a Kelt, and called them Keltic, they'd look at you blankly, unless they happened to belong to the Keltoi tribe near Massilia or the Celtici in Iberia. The name seems to have had a wider usage, but possibly because of the use of the term by the Greeks.
The Guide gives an overview of the Orlanthi, as a major culture, and in a few pages cannot be expected to detail the actual diversity among them. However, the Distribution and Subtypes section suggests a very much larger diversity than the overview might indicate. Snippets elsewhere throughout the Guide highlight some of the distinctions, but I suspect it would need an entire Book of the Orlanthi to present their cultural and religious diversity.
I couldn't agree more. The differences we already know about are significant enough, let alone those covered by the concept of the 'Orlanthi All'.
Back in the ancient days of RQ3 the culture was described as the 'Barbarian Belt' IIRC, and I think that is a very useful term. If one looks at RW history, the various Roman authors' struggle to differentiate between the 'Gauls' and the 'Germans' is almost comical.
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Fair enough, Joerg. I would be surprised by total non-appearance for three ages, but such is Glorantha.
YGWV though. The march of Tien is not to be taken lightly in mine!
Happy Christmas, Ali
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3 hours ago, soltakss said:
My feeling is the opposite, in that Orlanth exists as a Greater God and is worshipped in a number of different cults, each tapping into an aspect of Orlanth. These cults might be different in various areas, because they remember different things about Orlanth, but they are all Orlanth.
The idea of Finovan or Desemborth as cub-cults of Orlanth comes from the Hero Wars and is OK, for a very pantheonic view, but I don't think it reflects Gloranthan reality. Finovan and Desemborth are worshipped both as deities in their own right and as part of the Thunder Brother subcults of Orlanth, but the subcults are not Orlanth Finovan, but Finovan friend of Orlanth.
I think that this is fine, if one buys into the Monomyth being the actual truth. If you don't, and I certainly do not, then it can't be. It all depends on the vision that one is following. YGWV, which is essential and half the fun in playing in such a complex and well-realised world. I prefer to use a RW Bronze Age model for much of what I do, which is why I see it this way. "Gloranthan reality" is in the mind of the beholder. Eegads! I sound like a post-modernist! Perhaps because I am.
In the clash between the Heortling and the Talastari way of worshipping the storm there is an interesting way of seeing the 'reality' of a unified Greater God of the storm. For me this is reminiscent of the clashes between the prophets of Ba'al and those of YHWH in the late Bronze and early Iron western Semitic religious RW cults.
Have yourself a merry little mid-winter festival, birth of Mithras, Children's Day, Constitution Day, Good Governance Day, Malkh-Festival, Newtonmas Day, Quaid-e-Azam's Day, Takanakuy, or even Christmas.
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2 hours ago, Joerg said:
Actually, any surfeit of magic can cause a collapse of reality, whether chaotic or non-chaotic in nature. Both the Lunars and the Pentan hirelings fielded magic of near compromise-breaking dimensions, and when the two magics clashed, a rift in reality opened. Even illuminates could get lost in such an intrusion of the Void.
In which case the question is of even greater importance - how could a family of sorcerers be capable of 'near compromise-breaking' abilities, and yet be otherwise unknown?
One of the Greater Mysteries, perhaps?
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I don't think the source material supports the idea of a limited understanding of Orlanth.
The Thunder Brothers give a great deal of variation, and can be understood as regional interpretations of the Great Storm King concept. Similarly, the Ernaldan sub-cults may be understood as a conflated series of local earth deities. The red-headed warrior woman of Saird may be identified as Vinga, but she is far more than the female aspect of Orlanth, and far more than the cult of Vinga as known in Dragon Pass.
As a RW example, the Treaty between Mursilis of the Hittite Empire and Duppi-Tessub of Amurru invokes at least (some parts of the Treaty are missing) nineteen different deities simply as 'the Storm-God of x', without mentioning any names. It is the Orlanth function that is common, and so named by Theyalan Dawn Missionaries and by God Learner scholars, not a single god himself.
"My clan follows the noble storm-raider Orlanth Finovan, our neighbours are untrustworthy Orlanth Desemborth skulkers!"
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Glad to have been of some help.
I should point out that the Redline History refers to "a magician family from distant Orathorn", so even if my reading were correct it need not exhaust the Orathorni possibilities!
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YGWV! My reading of the Nights of Horror indicates a possible clash of chaotic magics.
"The Emperor grew desperate and summoned his powers of Chaos to aid him. The Orathorn magi summoned their own Secret Powers and this combat with the Lunar Chaos suddenly loosed alien worlds upon the battlefield. All mortals turned and fled, fighting wherever they had to against the inhuman foes which dropped from the burning scarlet and yellow skies." (The Redline History)
Even the Emperor has to fight chaos creatures.....so, I wondered what indications we have of chaotic forces around on or near the steppes.
Three possibilities immediately presented themselves.
Than Ulbar, with the skull of Atyar.
Pocharngo's fragments after his battle with Boztakang.
Tien's invasion army, defeated by Basko.
Personally, I think the latter has the most interesting possibilities. Therefore in my 'A Land Fit For Heroes And Their Horses' blog, relating to Pent (obviously!) I conceived of them as an extended family who have contact with Tien through a sorcerous approach, backed up by a considerable library of 'acquired' grimoires in the Tower. As they die, so they are used as a source of zombies, supplemented by unfortunates from Pent and Prax.
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10 Quacking Facts About Ducks
in Glorantha
Posted
YDMV