Ali the Helering

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

So what would be smuggled and what specifically would be from Vormain?

Slaves and silver going east, silk, lacquerware, porcelain, tea, spices, incense, medicines, rice wine going west. (sounds like the old silk road to me) Where is the silver coming from, the Lunar Empire?

From Saresangk, gold and lapis lazuli going both directions to pay for slaves and goods...

Are these places large enough to keep Pentian Nomads from destroying them? Wouldn't the Nomads be the biggest threat to any caravan passing east-west?

Would the Nomad leaders be paid tribute by each caravan?

What protects a caravan? How large are they on average to make such a long journey? Makes me think of those on the south continent and that they are huge due to safety in numbers...

Vormaino goods might include aquatic ivories, rare woods, spices, poetry from Aiken Hu, quicksilver from Henshie's Forge, Slave Bracelets (possibly with slave attached) from Henshivelica, pearls from Vengorokte, and magical items unavailable elsewhere on the lozenge.

If my thoughts regarding porphyry are correct, silver (and gold) are frequently found with it in the RW, as it is with lead, tradeable with the uz.

As with Issyk-Kul, sedentary trading posts can be tremendously important for nomads.  Different tribes and clans might hold power over one or two each, enforcing tariffs on traders.  Rather than paying tribute, the caravans might hold seasonal markets, another popular element in nomadic life!

Protection might be a matter of treaty, bribery, or coercion by neighbouring clans or tribes who want the trade to continue.  In Glorantha, of course, there are trader gods with some very powerful magics... 

If we are including smuggled goods, then material from Vormain also

Slaves - enlo from the Uz lands, locals, Pentans, Pelorians, hsunchen from the mountains, possibly even undead from Orathorn.

Slave gladiators - hsunchen, uzdo and romal, huan to.

Exotic animals and their hides etc.

Exotic magic items and beings.

I don't think there will be any lack of trade goods, to be honest. 

To start with, there is tremendous mineral wealth. 

Saresangk, "where gold and lapis lazuli are mined in great quantities". 

The distinctive coloured stone of particular cities and structures suggests resources of a Gloranthan analogue to porphyry or similar.                                                                       Bethmoora - pale green, Utnar Vesh - 'ivory bleached', Zhi Ti - yellow.  

There is copper as evidenced by the gates of Bethmoora, and silver as evidenced by the bells of Yian.

As for places on the route for trade, I would suggest that there are settled towns around the Hot Lake.  The eastern part of it was occupied by the Kingdom of Wisdom, and they could easily have left settlers there.  It would seem to be modeled on Issyk-Kul, and the towns there were a regular stop-off on the Silk Road.  It is likely that Sheng Seleris would have placed fortifications there to protect his supply lines.

18 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I was going to mention the Teelo Nori (is it?) poor house in Pavis. Of course some of the callous might call it a front for the empire.

There is an element of it involved with clan wyters, or other 'community spirits'.

With respect to the business of the aging and experience of elves, a note by Tolkien published in 'The Nature of Middle Earth' ISBN 978-0-00-838792-1 states that they entered phases of 'quiet' and 'renewal' during which their bodies were rejuvenated but their knowledge and wisdom were cumulative.

In the Third Age the periods of activity were shortened and the rejuvenation less complete. 

12 minutes ago, g33k said:

Do not "try not to think about" it too hard.
That sort of thinking leads to unhealthy places.

And why do you think I'm a Helering, pray????😇

Tindalos and I used Microscope to 'fill in' the details of a Sartarite tribe.  It worked very well, and was a great deal of fun.

At the risk of being shouted down as 'no longer canonical', Thunder Rebels and Storm Gods contained relevant materials.

Sorry guys, but December 25th was the festal day of Sol Invictus. 

Since the mid-8th century there has been some discussion as to whether Christianity appropriated it, but no actual evidence for it.

There is an huge problem with 25th as Jesus' birthday as recorded in the Gospels, though.  No shepherds in their right minds 'abide in the fields' with their flocks in late December in the Judean hills.

20 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Got some odd behaviour to report. Ali the Helering says a post I sent him repeated 14 times while I slept... as Avast tells me my computer is safe (and I am reasonably sure it was asleep) might there be a problem with BRP? Or with Ali's machine?

My machine, I am afraid.  Now at the shop, and I am using my laptop.  Sorry about that Bill!

Every Roman pater familias was a priest for their family ancestor worship

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

There’s a reason the Church eventually cracked down with rules on celibacy, although it probably had as much to do with control of land as priestly qualities.

It was particularly because priests were accumulating wealth and passing it on to their children.  Celibacy discouraged seeing priesthood as a road to inherited wealth

14 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

In my Glorantha, as common as going to church on Sunday... literally!

Absolutely agreed, with the caveat that the HeroQuest is seldom an event of great power and peril except at Sacred Time and on Holy Days. 

I once told Tindalos that I was off to lead the primary Christian HeroQuest to which he replied "A communion service then?".  Exactly.

Interracial tolerance is not the same as interracial relations, if you get my meaning?

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Have we 🤔?  I seldom take things personally or much to heart, and I certainly never felt that way about you Ali. 

The past remains in the past.  We look to the future.🙂

25 minutes ago, whitelaughter said:

The elves are specifically referred to as different races.

Faramir would have found out the hard way that he and she were different races, when she died of old age [the genealogies have Faramir outliving Eomer by 20 years despite Eomer living to 93!] Aragorn lived to be 210, not something that normal men can do.

Of course contains humans who are human. That's to be expected. But it is emphasized that the two races live in harmony."The Big Folk and the Little Folk (as they called one another) were on friendly terms, minding their own affairs in their own ways, but both rightly considering themselves as necessary parts of the Bree-folk. Nowhere else in the world was this peculiar (but excellent) arrangement to be found."

 

Yes, the friendship of Legolas and Gimli was born in fire. That makes it more special, not less.

Races meant something quite different in the '30s and '40s from what it means today.  Culture is not the same as gene pool.

To call the Numenoreans a race by the time of the War of the Ring is a bit of a stretch.  A handful of nobility in North and South, and the unfortunately named Black Numenoreans.  

Bree is divided into racial districts, with limited mixing.

Being a rarity doesn't make something implicitly an approval of racial interaction, either.

Sometimes in the ancient and early medieval RW a priesthood could be inherited, without personal devotion.  You simply went through the motions of ritual at the required times.

Rootless Aldryami can be interesting to have in a group, but only in the hands of an experienced and capable player.  If not, they're a complete disaster.

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

for sure,  and that's a part of the profundity of the background

but I think you don't understand my point

I think I do, but I still think that when it comes to understanding how to pattern religion it is best to use the RW as a model.  Now, I appreciate that I say this as a follower of a religion, but as someone who studies the social anthropology of religion I would say it even if I didn't.

10 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I actually have rules for conception and genetic inheritance.  I also have rules as to how to manage attribute changes as characters grow from babies to children to spotty delinquents to adults.  This can be used for all games, not just Pendragon, but is powerful magic, and should not be used lightly.

Conception:

from unprotected sex is 1 on 1d8. (I checked the stats and this is pretty accurate, you may apply a bonus for mothers having high or low CON, by using a 1d6 for healthy mothers and 1d10 for unhealthy mothers, potions might further modify the dice). 

Genetic Inheritance:

Rather than rolling up stats, you employ the stats of the parents and use the following table:

Genetic inheritance rules are Roll 1d10.  1-4= Same sex parent's stat, 5-7= Opposite sex parent's stat, 8=Average of both parent's stat, 9-0= Take after grandparent (Roll random stat).

Obviously same sex parent stat means if your character is a girl, she takes after her mother, while opposite sex in this instance would mean taking after her father.

Growing Up:

As to aging... Divide each stat by 15+1d6.  The result of the 15+1d6 indicates when the character will stop growing.  The fractional result is applied each year the character grows, but only to physical stats...  Intelligence is present from birth. Appearance is apparent from a young age, and should only be divided by 7.  The GM may also optionally give each character a single stat that is only divided by 10, which they improve in rapidly.

Charisma and Social stats however are another matter.  First divide Charisma by 2.  Then divide that halved product by the age of legal majority in the culture.  The character will only develop up to half their Charisma, and then will get the rest of it when they achieve legal majority or soon thereafter, as before then they are just kids and nobody much listens to them.  Obviously this doesn't apply to Pendragon though. 

Remember also that in the first years of your characters life, they are engaged in the rigorous training exercises of learning mobility, speech, not wearing one's food but putting it in one's mouth, and appropriate social performance of bodily functions.  It is a blistering program, and the fact that characters are able to discover syntax with minimal prompting is super unrealistic imo.

I know we have had massive differences in the past Darius, but this is brilliant! 

24 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i dont consider real word for this question

Never forget that Greg's work didn't appear out of thin air.  He was a serious student of mythology and anthropology.

I would always approach this from a RW point of view.

Siddharta Gautama propounded the eternal and unchangeable truths.  Except for those revealed by Mahayana.

The god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is eternal and unchangeable.  Except for the different understandings of the various followers of Jesus of Nazareth, Mohammed, Baha'u'llah, the people of Samaria, the Druze, Reform and Liberal Judaism, you name it.... even Free Presbyterians. 

Of course the deity is eternal and unchangeable, and always has been as WE worship them.  Others are simply wrong.

1 hour ago, Mugen said:

And there's the subject of half-orcs...

Particularly since JRR couldn't decide on Orcish origins anyway

On 11/11/2022 at 1:47 PM, whitelaughter said:

Then next time you read it, notice the explicit praise of inter-racial marriages.

Pretty much all of those described! Galadriel is descended from all 3 races of Light Elf, marries a Sindar, their daughter marries a half-elf, who marries a human.

Elrond traces descent from two different races of men and three different races of elves, plus Melian the Maia.

There are two strawman defences of racial purity:

1) Faramir bewails the mingling of his folk with 'lesser' men....only to fall head over heels for a barbarian warrior woman.

2) a claim that marrying a human is beneath an elf...given by our halfelf, Elrond!

Even within the hobbits, Harfoot Sam Gamgee(yes, check, every reference to his skin colour is brown) marries into the local Fallowhide gentry (allowing a blond daughter).

Then the description of Bree, praising the men and hobbits for respecting each other. The friendship of Legolas and Gimli.

I have to most profoundly disagree.  In Galadriel's case, elves are divided by tradition and attitude, not race.  Her daughter married a half-elf whose choice of kindred made him an elf, not a human.

Faramir and Eowyn are both human, the one representing the decayed imperial power (Gondor/Romano-Britain) the other the vibrant addition of noble barbarian blood (Rohan/Anglo-Saxon) and is not inter-racial.

Elrond is an example of many folk within the British Empire of mixed race who looked down upon those of their non-white ancestry.

Yes, Sam is indeed described as brown-skinned, as would almost all outdoor workers when Tolkien was writing.  The Fallowhides, the fairest skinned hobbits (according to Concerning Hobbits) form the nobility, as in Tolkien's England the fairest skinned folk formed the nobility.

Melian and Elu Thingol were indeed an inter-racial marriage, if the Maia can be counted a race in the sense we are using.  As a Roman Catholic Tolkien might well have been thinking of other forms of 'mystical marriage/bridal theology' which influenced a variety of writers such as   Henry Suso, Catherine of Siena, Teresa of Ávila, Gregory the Great and Bernard of Clairvaux.

Bree contains humans who are corrupt, evil, forgetful, and brutish.

The friendship of Gimli and Legolas emerges from shared peril, and via many racial slurs.