kr0p0s

So Horali are organised in terms of regiments or war societies. These are similar to the Orlanthi war societies you introduced in the Thanes thread? But less free companies or warbands and more organised guilds sworn to hereditary Talar leaders. Loosely sort of like the Togukawa shogunate period?

Is Horal an Ascended Master or just an exemplar of the way a warrior fits into Malkioni society?

How do Horali learn spirit magic from their regiment or war society? Currently the rules say that you can only learn spirit magic from a rune cult or shaman. Are there ancestor worship shaman or rune priests of the war gods embedded within these societies or is there some other mechanic?

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Zzaburi: Zzaburi are specialists in sorcery. They exist to study and practice sorcery for the benefit of the rest of Malkioni society. Sorcery requires many years of dedicated study and specialization, and so Malkioni society is organized into castes so that a specialist caste of sorcerers can exist. Primarily through the skill of the zzaburi, the Malkioni were able to survive the Greater Darkness. 

The zzaburi are charged with the responsibility of mastering sorcery and using it for the good of the other castes. They support the talar leaders in their commands; cast magic on the horali warriors to enable them to defeat any foe; and help the dronar workers obtain bountiful harvest and create tools. 

Talars: The Talar caste has the responsibility of keeping society well-ordered and prosperous. This caste includes many types of leaders, from military commanders, merchants and judges, to landholders and court official. The caste handles trade, administers justice, controls exports and imports of goods and services, and handles all contacts with non-Malkioni. 

The talars are directly descended from the first-born son of Malkion, They venerate their ancestors – kings, heroes, and even gods – as a means of connection to the supreme power of the Invisible God. The earliest ancestors were the children of gods, and can intercede with the Elemental gods and the Powers on behalf of their descendants. As a result, Talars must carefully learn their lineage, and act as links between past generations of leaders and the present time.

Upon death, the remains of a talar are buried beneath the earth. Mounds, shrines, or other structures are typically built atop the grave. Cults to specific ancestors are common among their descendants. In the First Age, the royal burial mounds of the Seshnegi Serpent Kings were sacred complexes and the center of much religious activity. Other such cults, such as those of Xemela, Hrestol, Gerlant, and Talor, are now worshiped by members of all Malkioni castes.   

Horali: Horal was the third son of Malkion. Where his older brothers were given the powers of command and mastery over magic, Horal learned weapon mastery from five terrible gods - Humakt, Yelmalio, Zorak Zoran, Babeester Gor, and Wachaza - and then proved his skill to Kargan Tor. Humakt gave him the Unbreakable Sword and Horal fought for his brothers in many wars. In the stratified Brithini society, the horali served as soldiers who conquered new territories and defended the homeland from foreign aggressors. 

Horali exist to fight and the warrior caste prides itself in proficiency with weapons and skill in battle. All horali are soldiers, subject to the commands of the talars. The holari are tasked with the defense of the Malkioni, prosecution of wars, and enforcement of the will of the talars. 

In many areas, the horali are often of non-Malkioni origin. During periods of expansion, entire tribal warbands of Orlanthi or Hsunchen origin were “adopted” into Malkioni society as horali. Some continue to worship their ancestral war cults. Many scholars believe that is the origin of the Seshnelan Martial Beasts, and Humakt and Wachaza were both popular cults with the Second Age armies of the Middle Sea Empire. 

Dronari: Dronar was the last son of Malkion, born of Britha, and charged with his father to support the other brothers unquestioningly. The dronari were told that in return the other brothers would shelter and protect them. The dronari formed the largest caste, composed of farmers, herders, craftsmen, hunters, smiths, and all manners of those who toil for their living. 

Many, perhaps most, dronari have non-Malkioni ancestry. In some lands conquered by the Middle Sea Empire, the native population were enrolled en masse as dronari.

Wow. This is great! 

How far are the Hrolari allowed to devote themselves to the war orientated gods? Just to the point of lay membership so that they can access spirit magic? And if they go further and can initiate, can they acquire rune magic? Are priests, rune Lords and temple organisation permitted to service the hrolari?

10 hours ago, Frp said:

Western cultures have a long history of turning a blind eye to what the lower castes do, as long as they're not breaking any taboos and fulfilling their duties. 

Rokari society is the most conservative of the Malkioni. Allowing the Dronar caste to initiate into the cults of petty gods is the sort of thing that the henotheists of Ralios allow. And they have drifted far from the ideals of Malkion. They are no better than heathens!

So the rule about creating new sorcery spells on p390 in RQ:G is a very rarely used mechanic.  See Rune Magic is not that big a step from Identify Spell. It would use the same runes and technique even. Given its utility to Rokari social order would no one have devised such a spell from investigation of the Abiding Book or a similar grimoire. 

I suppose one could argue that it was a spell know during the time of the Godlearners, that knowledge of it has been lost, and that the devising of new spells since the disasterously experimental times of the Middle Sea Empire is prohibited? At least in the Rokari culture.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

It was the (sample?) spell of the Stygian College of Magic in RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, a sect-exclusive spell.

 

Well spotted! However it is not introduced as such in the Smoking Ruins supplement, and is of  such utility that you would imagine that it may be in use in Malkioni cultures .  It may be used by zzaburi tasked with monitoring and chastising the lower castes or interacting with heathens?

50 minutes ago, Frp said:

--SPOILER -- Its Arkati magic. Anyone that has access to that spell in an orthodox western church isn't likely to share that they know it. 

There are a couple rune spells in RBM that come from western heroes too. I figure western warriors, and maybe others, will have access to limited rune magic. 

Its a new sorcery spell that is used by the Black Arkati, but its general enough that you would imagine its a useful spell that would be found in  some version of the Abiding Book.

Ooh, I have the RBM, but missed those. Which ones?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

For "original humans", the Malkioni (or at least their mythical leaders) have a pristine (if very mixed) divine ancestry.

Malkion the Founder is the son of Aerlit Kolating, a storm god who flew with the Vadrudi host, inheriting from Sky and Earth, and Warera Triolina, a (grand?) daughter of King Wartain, a triolini mer-king of the Neliomi sea descended from one of the ten Tritons. Warera and Ludocha were abducted and married in the same mythic event, which makes the statement that Warera was a Ludoch a bit dubious, but not impossible. I personally see her as a niiad, the demigod ancestral race that made up the Triolini prior to the Vadrudi raid.

Malkion married a number of goddesses to sire the caste founders and the tribal founders.

Malkions sons Talar, Horal, Zzabur and Holar and his daughters Eule and Menena were born to the Tilnta (love nymph, love goddess) Phlia, the caste ancestor Dromal was born to the land or mountain goddess Kala (a mountain range on Brithos), and Waertag was born to a Wartain sea goddess (niiad or ludoch) named Jeleka.

 

There's a lot of scope for ancestors worship among the Talar cast there!

2 hours ago, davecake said:

As I understand it from Jeff’s clarifications last night, for the Rokari:

Zzaburi are specialist sorcery users. The general citizenry are expected to donate magic points at regular community rituals, which the Zzaburs can use for powerful community rituals. 
The Talars worship their ancestors. And their genealogies may include some beings that other cultures would treat as not only heroes, but gods. In particular, Issaries is an ancestor of many Western noble families (this story about Garzeen is in Cults of Prax), including the Trader Princes of the Manirian Coast. And of course the old Seshnelan Serpent Kings were descended from Seshna Likita. But also famous ancestors would be hero cults etc. Presumably they don’t practice Ancestor Worship in a very shamanic way. 
Horali Warriors typically get magic from war gods and the War societies. This is tolerated as long as they remain subservient to the Talars, and effective at fighting. 
I personally don’t think the War societies are practically very hsunchen like these days - I don’t think there is a big emphasis on shape changing, unarmed warfare, I don’t think they consider themselves animals in human form, etc and they are still very civilised in lifestyle - rather, they were hsunchen spirit cults ~1500 years ago and are now quite different - but they are not really Malkioni magic either. 
And the Dronars quietly worship the same sort of deities as farmers and workers elsewhere - largely Earth worship, crafter gods and gods associated with professions, but a few wilder religions as well - and as long as they continue turning up to the weekly community rituals, and obeying the Talars, no one really pays that much attention. 

This is a good summary, but I also think that Jeff mentioned that only spirit magic was generally available to the Hrolari and Dronar. This implies that their interaction with their deities were limited. Maybe initiation to the cults of the Burtae is seen as a step too far away from Malkionism. There is a sorcery spell introduced in Smoking Ruins call See Rune Magic. You could imagine some inquisitorial body, in more orthodox regions, dedicated to checking up on the lower castes to purge unorthodox rune powers.

The Talar worship of powerful ancestors may alow them to bypass these restrictions and obtain rune magic?

Just been looking at Urvantan and his tower. He has inscribed the sorcery spells Create Image and Disappear into the tower to enable him to make it disappear or appear like an innocuous hill. Both spells reference the SIZ of the target. This has got me thinking about the SIZ attribute of objects such as trees, building and landscape features. How is this handled in the rules, if at all. Will we have to wait for the Gamemasters Book?

Surely as a sorcery user increases in power they are going to invest POW in inscription to strengthen their magic. Free INT can also be maximised by forgetting and remembering spells. I know this takes time, but sorcery users are not battlefield magic users. They come carefully prepared with combat experts to protect them, if they do every leave their studies, laboratories or places of worship.

29 minutes ago, kr0p0s said:

."

This implies that the bulk of the population only has access to low strength, utility spirit magic,Ignite,  Heal, Repair etc, no Fireblade for them. How is this access controlled? 

 

Is it controlled by the Zzabari caste. It has been said they have access to potent magic for the control of otherworld entities. Are the Dronars rewarded for service or given appropriate spirit magic by the a Zzaburi summoning specific spirits to teach them?

Edit:

Further, each rune spell has affinities. Would Talars and Horali  caste members be able to use their own rune affinities to obtain suitable rune magic?

In the GtG, p.53 it says "Sorcery is the type of magic which is most acceptable and most used. Most Malkioni consider any magic which is more useful than kitchen or plow charms to be too powerful and dangerous for normal people to try. Only specialized wizards ought to attempt greater magic, and then only carefully."

This implies that the bulk of the population only has access to low strength, utility spirit magic,Ignite,  Heal, Repair etc, no Fireblade for them. How is this access controlled? What punishments are meted out for transgressional individuals? I imagine the warrior class can access more potent magic, both spirit and possibility  rune magic. What gods, spirits or pathways do they use to access this? You don't want your warrior class "trapped in the worship of runes as petty gods", especially when that god is Orlanth or his rebellious kin.

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

According to the rules, no Sorcery spell skill can be higher than the character's Read/Write. Considering that most people are illiterates, then by definition sorcery is the realm of the high castes. 

And highly intelligent.  You have to have a minimum INT of 13 to learn Runes and Techniques. You can be as erudite as you like, but without the raw smarts, you will find using your spell knowledge very draining.

I remember reading on the forum somewhere about Malkioni being able to access rune magic through heroquesting. I imagine that this would be through a more exploratory method possible interacting with the mythology of the more pantheistic belief systems. Not to change or break the heroquest paths in the style of the Godlearners, but using rune affinities to access rune magic.

38 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I recall a more in-depth post but my google-fu is failing at the moment

Same here, that's why I have put out this request 😁.

There was quite a detailed debate thread about the general concepts called School me on the Changes to the Malkioni in which Jeff mentioned  " But I don't think things have changed much since the Guide. Except now I am able to make things work using the RQ rules."

And I remembered reading somewhere that the lower castes make use of spirit magic, and something about access to rune magic through heroquesting? 

So there is a lot of though going into the Western magic system. I was just wondering if someone 'in the know' *cough* would be able to provide a broad framework of progress so far?

I know that it doesn't have much relevance to the campaign in Sartar being developed, but it is quite relevant to the broader world view.

Could anyone summarise the current understanding of how Western Sorcery fits into the current RQ universe. I seem to remember some discussion about only the Wizard caste actually using sorcery. The other castes were able to use spirit magic and somehow have access to rune magic. I know someone is going to say wait for the Sorcery/Malkion supplement. I'm just after some general hints as to the direction of travel. Is it towards the henotheism of Ralios? Are the lower castes, in their ignorance, allowed to indulge in spirit or cult worship. Otherwise how do they acquire spirit and rune magic?

On 11/26/2019 at 9:15 AM, Jeff said:

 

The Tides

The tides play a defining role in the geography of the Rightarm Islands. 

Wow, only just saw this explanation of The Tides. 

While it describes the effects on the Rightarm Islands, I imagine the effect is noticeable along a large part of the south coast of Genertela? This would be of some concern to the folks of the coast of Wenelia, and especially the sea-fear crazed inhabitants of Ramalia - the tidal cycles would be examined carefully lest the Sea returns to finish the job of drowning them.

14 minutes ago, Joerg said:

In standard Sartarite cities like Jonstown or Wilmskirk, guilds take the role of clans and temples when it comes to land ownership inside the city walls. I suppose that New Pavis doesn't differ much in this regard, although the Pavis Cult with its Second Age traditions will have had its say.

 

I seem to remember that Guilds were going to be covered in the forthcoming Gamemasters Book? Can anyone confirm this?

The Community as Character concept introduced in the Appendix of Six Seasons in Sartar seems to be a useful way of defining these communities. I an looking forward to seeing how the author expands upon the framework in future releases.

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Are you able to paraphrase this without spoilers or giving away too much? 

Erm...sorry. six Season in Sartar is available through the Jonstown Compendium and is a really interesting buy, if you can get it. At the end of the book the writer suggests a system for describing communities in the same way as characters : "In these entirely optional rules then we will be defining communities the same way we define supporting characters; with runes, characteristics, distinctive features, motivation, passions, and skills.". It enables a GM to give a community of any size, be it a warband, clan, temple,  town or larger, a distinct identity that they can get to grips  and interact with. Its a great descriptive tool - a RQ:G version of the HQ community writeups.

Edit: maybe this should be in the Runequest forum? D'oh!

I loved the concept of Community as Character introduced in Six Seasons  in Sartar. It seems such a good replacement, in RQ:G,  for the community system used in HQ. Has anybody else taken up the concept or is there a similar system going to be introduced in the GM Book?

47 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Does this have anything to do with the griots of Timbuktu? It sounds similar but lacks the elaborate masks.

The Griots were storytellers, poets and historian's, but I think that Engolo originated as a form of ritual combat, either as rite of passage or used in settling disputes. The techniques were carried to the American and informed the development of Capoiera.

Engolo seemed to have a distinct spiritual aspect as well:

"In his book Fighting for Honor, as well as his article "Combat and Crossing of the Kalunga", Desch Obi draws parallels between the circle space used in the Engolo and the inverted techniques with the Kalunga cosmology, in which the spirit–ancestor world is inverted as a world of opposites: where men walk on their feet, the spirits walk on their hands, where men are black, the spirits are white, where men reach their peak physical abilities in life, the ancestors reach their peak spirituality. He states that men in performing Engolo with its inverted positions connect themselves physically and spiritually with the ancestors, and with specific ancestral warriors of the past."

Capoiera is ripe for translating into Glorantha 

"The early history of capoeira is recorded by historians such as Dr. Desch-Obi. Originally, the ancestor tradition originated from Kingdom of Kongo and was called N'golo/Engolo (known as Angola today); a type of ritual dance that used several elements of kicking, headbutting, slap boxing, walking on one's hands, deception, evasion etc. The purpose was also religious as it both provided a link to the afterlife (which was the opposite of the living world) and enabled a person to channel their ancestors into their dance. For example, during the dance, a person might become possessed by an ancestor in the past who was talented at N'golo. "

It just oozes Movement rune affinity and ancestor worship.

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well, if you are modest about your achievements, and don't like to boast, then you could just hire bards and skalds to sing about how modest you are.

Be careful about your choice of skald. He may be a Eurmali in disguise

The Bachad tribe described above puts them in the category of Earth Tarsh ( type C) used in Wyrms Footnotes 15. However in the section of the Tribes of Sartar in that issue they are described as Dark Orlanthi. I imagine being close to the Toranki there may be some Darkness influence, but surely not enough to supercede the Earth Tarshite beliefs they brought from the Bush Ranges?

It is said in the Book of Heortling Mythology:

"Dalarok Redsail, the famous merchant captain of Slontos, was the most famous proselytizer of the Zistori faith. His crews, slaves, and admirers all accepted it, and their success encouraged more to join as well. Soon there were thousands of people throughout Maniria who embraced Zistorism, and worked hard to fit into the system. The pernicious thought had not taken root in the Shadowlands, where the old gods fed daily with their worshipers, unpolluted by such ideas. Already, many times, the people of Kethaela had thrown off invasions by their ancient foes of Slontos. For this Dalarok Redsail wished them ill. But wherever humans live there will be both reason and treason, and the Only Old One could not prevent its taking root. And some of the “New Knews” came ashore, and lived among the cities of Kethaela, and built up cells of believers. One day Zistor the Destroyer showed up, in person, to help during the invasion of Esrolia. It was a huge monster, made of gleaming metal and wires, which tore down the walls of cities. Across Maniria the Zistori people had dreamed of this, and were glad for it. They liked it."

This implies that the movement was very important, if not centred, in the Duchy of Slontos, and that it was an deadly contribution to the the Middlesea Empires struggle against the Empire of Wyrms Friends. This all ended with the destruction of the Zistorites in and their Machine City in the Iron War.

But what of Zistorite belief, sorcery and artifacts, especially in Maniria. May some of this have survived in the cities of Highwall and Vision, especially in the Slontan relics there in the Low Temple. May unholy machine creations lurk in the ruins on the shores of Maniria?