kaydet

I think this is just an editing error. It should definitely be more generalized to avoid confusion.

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Ah, Allied Spirits and a Shaman's Fetch are two very differernt things.

I'm aware of that. My point is that allied or guardian spirits -- as well as a shaman's fetch -- are examples of the kind of interaction I'm looking for: a personal relationship with a spirit that provides magical benefit.

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Uh, in what way don't they? In both RQ32 and RQ3 a Shaman with a fetch can do the things you are asking. Non-Shaman can do someo of those tings in RQ3, but not as easily or as well, mostly becuase the lack the INT and POW/MP boost of the Fetch. 

Because "spirit magic" / "battle magic" lacks that personal interaction with a spirit being, something I think should be reflected in the rules more explicitly.

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

The re branding of Battle Magic to Spirit Magic happened over 30 years ago in RQ3. I'm not exactly sure what your complaint is. he stuff that you appear to want is actually in there under the Shaman section in RQ2 and RQ3.

When it happened is quite frankly immaterial to my point. And as for my "complaint", see above.

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Not quite. Shamans had "Fetches" in RQ2 (pages 44-45). Rune level character could have Allied Sprirts. I'd have to pull out Cults of Prax to check on Daka Fal (they always seemed overpowered to me in RQ2, basically A Rune Priest and a Shaman!)

Page 60-61 talks of Allied Spirits -- which is what I was referring to. If we're really drawing a distinction between "Allied" and "Guardian" then I guess you're right.

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Thats not all that far off from RQ2/RQ3. Its' pretty much what and how Spirit Magic works. In theory, in RQ3 a non-Shaman could learn and use magic that could bind spirits, but its a lot harder, and the character is much more limited. 

So then my question to you would be why the mechanics of the game don't reflect that.

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I wouldn't be too concerned about the new RQ just from the quickstart. I suspect they simplified everything just to squeeze as much as they could into the quickstart so we could all try out the game. For example, if you look at the writeup for Bladesharp it doesn't even mention that it can only be cast on edged weapons, and  Bludgeon isn't listed, or Speedart, Multimissile, or Fireblade for that matter. 

I'm well aware, believe me. It's been pointed out numerous times. I'm not attacking the Quickstart, nor faulting it in any way other than asking why the rules are set up as they are. I don't think it's a large jump in logic to assume that the mechanics will be similar if they are using Battle Magic spells and re-branding them as Spirit Magic.

1 hour ago, styopa said:

When you DM, there's nothing stopping you describing your version of Glorantha in your terms.  YGMV.  

As a player, I admit I'd wonder why - if a 'disrupt' is actually a spirit flying forth to damage a target - spells like Spirit Screen and Spirit Block don't protect me from that damage?  Or prevent that spirit guiding his blade from hitting me?  Or why my fetch (if I'm a shaman, for example) couldn't see/catch/kill/eat such spirits. 

But in your world, maybe they do?  Or you have a reason they don't?  I'd genuinely enjoy hearing how such a world works, it sounds terrifically evocative.

This has never been about wondering whether it would be acceptable for me to modify the rules. I know and understand that Glorantha is not something set in stone. Instead it's been a question of how spirits interact with the people living in the Middle World, and how that is replicated in the rules. Having read the Quickstart now, I am less against the direct port of Battle Magic to Spirit Magic, but I still think that it could be made to be more interesting.

I guess my answer to your question would be to say that spirit defenses would protect against all spirit magic unless they were overcome by a POW resistance roll between the two spirits? Perhaps a spirit scouting for the player might be caught and killed by a defensive spirit protecting an enemy camp. Ultimately, though, my instinct would be to not use the Battle/Spirit Magic spells at all, and to substitute various types of spirits (à la elementals) as NPC followers that would augment their owner's abilities and provide magical services. 

@flynnkd I'm not playing Heroquest... I'm picturing how Glorantha functions. If Glorantha "works" a certain way, I don't see why Runequest shouldn't replicate that through its mechanics.

5 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Its the difference between a professional and a dabbler. In RQ2 and RQ3 the Shaman used the same game mechanics as a regular character, but had addional perks that gave him more power and flexibility. Your "Guardian Spirit" concept is pretty similar to the Shaman's Fetch.

I don't think it's "my" concept; I'm pretty sure Guardian Spirits have been around since RQ2.

What I am picturing involves a regular adventurer having charms that contain spirits. He cannot create these charms, nor trap spirits into them -- that is the realm of a shaman. By touching these charms and speaking the name of the spirit, he can release them into the world in order to aid him. These spirits allow him certain abilities when they are released; one might guide his blade in combat, or make him fleet of foot; another might hide the tracks he makes in snow or sand.

He is limited in the number of charms he can carry, and the strength of the spirits housed within them. A shaman can carry more and stronger spirits, and can travel the spirit world to find and create such charms as he might wish.

27 cubic meters is a lot of anything. I think I will definitely be downsizing them in any game I run. 

48 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

I wouldn't say it's obvious at all, since most gods are associated with multiple Runes and Runes aren't specific to one particular deity.  However, given the multiple personalities of gods such as Orlanth, it might be difficult not to act like him as a follower.  Also, given that it's suggested that positive Runic affinities begin at a minimum of 60% and experience isn't codified in the QS, it's not clear how much effort it would take to get to 80%.

I think that variability is covered by the broadness of the rune descriptors, as well as the GM's judgement of what qualifies as acting like your god.

But it's your game. Run it how you like.

5 minutes ago, styopa said:

And no, I don't insist 'only shamans can interact with Spirits'.   That's the way RQ has, does, and (likely) will work.  It ain't me lobbying for it, that's just how the game is.  Rune Lords of various cults can get allied spirits bound into things, but in terms of spiritwalking, and interacting with spirits, that's what Shamans are FOR.  

My point, again, has never been to argue about how past Runequest editions have worked. I've simply been attempting to explain how I would like to see spirits and spirit magic handled in RQG.

Perhaps I'll just use the shaman rules for all PCs if the battle magic paradigm is still maintained.

59 minutes ago, styopa said:

Because SPIRIT MAGIC (ala RQ, since forever) really has little to nothing to do with spirits, aside from the original mechanism you used to get the spells from spirits.

This statement is more than a little ridiculous to me. Why change its name to Spirit Magic if it has nothing to do with spirits? Do they just teach you the spell and then leave?

Anyway, my point, as always since this conversation started, has been that Spirit Magic should have more of that animistic flavor which you insist only shamans can interact with. I think a more involved approach would be much more interesting and engaging than the way it is currently presented.

On 7/2/2017 at 7:20 AM, Yelm's Light said:

I don't see Runes as quite that integral to the world.  If anything, followers are encouraged to emulate their particular god/dess, but as has been shown in real religions, there is a wide variety of degrees of such emulation, even among those who are titularly in positions of authority.  Slavish commitment to 'what the Runes want you to do' in application is a little more than I want to dictate RP choices.

I don't think that the intention behind the Runes/Passions is to give the GM authorial control over the characters, nor do I think that a good GM would run it that way. 

Firstly, the compulsion only occurs when an adventurer has a high runic affinity (over 80%), which indicates that a player has spent significant time and effort to increase his level of runic affinity -- a dedicated choice on the part of the player, with in-game rewards for that behavior. The runic compulsion is the counterpoint to that, providing a risk-reward calculation. Choosing to boost your runic affinity should have some kind of risk-reward benefit: you enjoy some serious bonuses, but you carry with you the consequences of embodying (a piece of) a god. This is a pretty constant and integral part of Glorantha.

Secondly, I do not think that the compulsion takes the form of the GM telling the player what his character does. After all, the runic descriptions are very vague; a smart player and a good GM should be able to come up with a way to satisfy his runic affinity while still allowing plenty of player agency. Sometimes restraints and restrictions can bring out the best creativity.

Lastly, there is also a factual statement: if you have a high runic affinity, you have obviously been acting like your god -- if you do not act like your god, you do not have a high runic affinity.

7 minutes ago, styopa said:

You're pretty much essentially describing the gameplay of a Shaman or Shaman-wannabe.

I'm describing how I believe spirit magic functions in Glorantha. Why would the mechanics of spirit magic differ between a shaman and a regular character?

8 minutes ago, styopa said:

That's pretty much true.

I know that -- which is why I made the statement I did. I'd like to see more of a mechanical difference between the two.

GURPS solves this problem by making Dodge an expensive and difficult ability to increase, but as a skill in RQG, I'm not sure the same restrictions can be applied -- though we haven't yet seen what the character development rules will look like. My instinct is that Dodge should only be a viable option when parrying would not block enough damage to prevent grievous injury or possible death -- an act of desperation to avoid the kick of a giant's foot or the blow of Jar-Eel's blade, rather than an option regularly exercised.

5 hours ago, g33k said:

Well, yeah!  I think we're all looking forward to the main rules...     And hoping for the kind of detail you seem to be wanting.

But I had understood (from your remarks upthread) that you WERE specifically speaking about the QS, and its lack of detail & flavor around spirit/battle magic, and suggesting that it "should" have been there.  My apologies if I misunderstood.

When I was writing the above I hadn't yet had the opportunity to look through the quickstart rules. I have as of July 1, and I'm actually quite pleased with what I found.

That being said, my objection up-thread was mainly that Battle Magic from RQ2 was being relabeled as Spirit Magic, which struck me as being without much of the flavor that I associate with animistic spirit magic (even though, I suppose, it was always "spirit magic" back in RQ2). The accumulation of charms and the personal relationship with the various spirits is what makes that type of magic different and interesting to me, and it seems like those things are implicit in the rules rather than something that the players have to track and involve themselves with.

It would be much more interesting for me to have to choose which charms I wish to have with me on an adventure based on what I expect to confront. If the number of spirits an adventurer can have on his person at one time is limited, and if there is variability in the power and influence of different spirits, it would give players an incentive to hunt down different and more powerful spirits, and would make the possession of a guardian spirit (which might not take up one of your spirit "slots") all the more important and useful.

My other objection is that, as it stands, Rune Magic seems to be (mechanically speaking) simply a rarer and more powerful version of Spirit Magic, which I find less than ideal.

Again, these are just my thoughts on what I've seen and heard up to now, and it's quite possible that there are additional twists that are to be added in the final release. 

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Different cultures may have different theoretical frameworks for the workings of spirit magic; in addition to the shortage of wordcount / pagecount, I think Chaosium has intentionally not pinned this down... And as with many metaphysical things in Glorantha, the real answer about "who's right" might be in the realm of "it's complicated" and "they're both right... AND wrong" &c...  There simply isn't room in the QS.

Not speaking specifically about the Quickstart at all, and I understand that there is limited space. I'm just stating my hopes for the actual rules when they arrive.

To your point, though, I think that it is a false statement to say that explaining how a culture uses spirit magic is equivalent to revealing the "one truth" of Glorantha.

The correct answer to all such questions (and inevitable arguments) is to ask "whose comic book is the fight taking place in?"

I think that speaks to @Jon Hunter's point, right? That the healers are concerned with the moral and spiritual interpretation of their rule, rather than a dogmatic adherence to one doctrine or another.

17 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

If people obsess about the form of faith ( similar to your questions ) they stand a chance of loosing the essence, as an interpretation in one situation maybe not be relevant for another, or even for different believers at different points in there faith.

Such as the divide between the eastern and western branches of Christianity, or between Sunni and Shia Islam.

I feel that the adherents of Chalana Arroy would not be particularly prone to quibble about the "wording" of their cult taboos.

My point exactly.

I always thought that that write-up was intended to be facetious...

There are a lot of assumptions and hand-waves involved in that battle plan.

1 hour ago, GamingGlen said:

About Sever Spirit: so all it takes to take out the Crimson Bat is about 100 Humakti, and the 1000s of cannon fodder to keep it occupied?  (always a 5 percent chance of success)  Or, as an old gamer once suggested, 1000 archers (part of the cannon fodder), even with a 1% chance to crit that's 10 crits against no armor. Why is it still alive?   

The Crimson Bat is a tac-nuke that can turn strategic if it's fed enough souls. I don't think ten or even a hundred arrows are going to stop it, no matter how hard they hit.

I also doubt that it would be deployed alone without support, so your archers and Humakti are going to have plenty of other things to worry about before the Bat's sight bursts the eyes inside their heads.

I apologize for being brusk in my reply. I shouldn't have been so short.

In the end I think that HQ and RQ represent two different approaches to the world, one narrative and the other simulationist. I really hope that Chaosium makes full use of the detailed style they have access to, because they have a real chance to explore and explain Glorantha through a concrete system of rules and mechanics.

48 minutes ago, Psullie said:

My understanding of Sprit Magic is drawn from RQ2 and what little is revealed in the QS. I think it unfair to judge the new system based on that. 

I think it's perfectly fair to ask questions and make comments about the way a game is being developed. This is a public forum isn't it? I thought that was the purpose.

That's why I asked my initial question -- to gather some more information about the new system. But everything I've heard makes it sound like it's exactly the same as RQ2 battle magic, and I think that any distinct changes would be shown in the Quickstart. If they're not being tested now, I doubt they're going to be in a book released by this Christmas.

48 minutes ago, Psullie said:

As for HQG, everything uses the same mechanic - the flavour comes with the cult descriptions etc which from what we hear from Jeff in this forum are also included in the the new edition. I imagine that the Shaman's +9 benefit from using a charm once per session will have similar flavour element in the new edition considering the other elements already borrowed from HQG - but this is just a guess. 

All I was suggesting was, like HQG, the simplicity of the system enables adaptation for flavour - much like what Cults of Prax did for RQ2.

The flavor comes from the way you apply the mechanic (e.g., d100 or d20 rolls) to the game world. I won't repeat my arguments that I gave in my previous post, since this debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

I had hoped that Runequest will represent Gloranthan magic with a structured approach rather than leaving it simply to the GM to narrate as you suggest.

I'll be interested to read the Quickstart pdf on July 1st.

32 minutes ago, Psullie said:

One of the appealing facets of Glorantha is that there is no single modality for the way any magic works, therefore they cannot be a all encompassing mechanic unless you are Mostly).

I disagree, for several reasons.

First, while Gloranthan fuzziness about myth and religion might be endlessly satisfying to enthusiasts (I count myself among them) who enjoy debating and pondering such weighty questions, I think that new players need to have some structure to help them get to grips with how the world works -- even if it isn't entirely "accurate" or "true".

Second, there are definitely known "modalities" for different cultures. Having different game mechanics for different understandings of spirit (or any) magic seems like an easy (and exciting!) way to differentiate cultures and explore Glorantha's celebrated diversity.

Thirdly, my point about Heroquest still stands: spirit magic in HQG is pretty detailed and flavorful, with different societies, charms, taboos, and so forth. "Battle magic" in RQ2 has none of that, and if RQG is essentially relabeling "battle magic" to "spirit magic" then I'm left wondering where all that flavor is being provided. Is it up to the GM to do, as you suggest in the second half of your post? If so then again I must say that I am disappointed.

45 minutes ago, Psullie said:

Unless you actually want dead chickens on your table, most role-playing games boil down to dice or cards.

I would suggest that how you roll the dice and for what reason have a great deal of importance. The mechanics behind a game process replicate and reinforce  the action in the roleplaying world.

48 minutes ago, Psullie said:

When your shaman reaches into the under world to summon a lost ancestor so as to study the auras of this around him could be a complicated ritual involving rattles, dancing and sacrifice or just a momentary focus on an inscribed fibula. Either ways he's just cast Second Sight and the player rolls some dice

This, to me, sounds like a statement about Heroquest. In fact, why am I using a set of rules at all? I could run a game by this method using coin flips.

5 hours ago, Mankcam said:

There is a bit about Spirit Magic in the Quickstart, but its vague in a good way, as I feel its open to interpretation.

And that would be great for a game like Heroquest, where the whole point is to be vague and narrative-minded.

But this is Runequest, which to my mind should be mechanically simulating the workings of Glorantha as accurately and precisely as it can.

When Heroquest has more detailed and complex rules covering the handling and interaction of spirits, I think there's something wrong.