Ian Cooper

And we are live

https://www.chaosium.com/questworlds-system-reference-document/

https://questworlds.chaosium.com/

Looking forward to what you all do with this.

For errors that you've found, or other feedback, the best way to raise it with Ian is probably to use GitHub - see "How to raise an issue" at https://github.com/ChaosiumInc/QuestWorlds/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md

Hi all,

Just to comment.

The Eleven Lights is essentially a replacement for the Sartar Rising Campaign (although you could certainly use Barbarian Adventures and Orlanth is Dead for inspiration for your 11L campaign). There is  planned Vol3, which would cover the Sky Ship and the Dragonrise. It's been playtested a few times, and I finally have the key to finishing it.

The work to complete that is behind the QuestWorlds Core Book. Once that is out, and we start the genre packs appearing, that will be next up.

I do have some other plans to keep producing smaller HQG releases (think Highwall Inn) to keep adding material to the line whilst we wait.

With Jeff focused on RQG, Whitewall: The Last Rebel King is unlikely. Once the RQG team looking at Whitewall has got something done, maybe we will look at that again, if there is still demand. But no commitments or promises. It would probably be a bridging product covering the period between the end of the Colymar Campaign and the Great Winter (as we covered that in 11L and Orlanth is Dead can add more)

It's the problem with advertising 'coming next' in a book. Everyone gets disappointed if it does not happen, over treating the work as complete, in and of itself.

On 10/14/2019 at 6:14 PM, Michael Hopcroft said:

I guess the question for me is whether the rules will have significant enough changes that I can work on a HQ project now and not have to do the entire thing over again when the SRD is released into the wild. I own both HQ and HQ:G so I have a core to work with assuming the system undergoes no substantial changes.

There has been clarification around terminology mainly, so that it is consistent etc. Similarly a few progressions have been standardized on the +3, +6 +9 etc scale. One major change is around character advancement which we have tried to make more meaningful. But it's compatible with HQ and HQG, it's just cleaned up.

I'd suggest that we would expect to see the SRD come out, everyone to error trap, and then for us to re-release a fixed version. We hope to have an efficient process for that.

We are discussing the Open License we will be using. Sorry, it’s real soon now, but we need to get the choice of license right, because there is no do-over.

On 9/9/2019 at 3:22 AM, lordabdul said:

Yep. Given how HQ take very little space, I wonder if it would be possible to release most Gloranthan scenarios with dual stats? I'm still undecided myself about whether to pick RQ or HQ for my next campaign... I might just start 2 campaigns instead

Maybe. I think that RQG and HQG are like a venn diagram for scenarios. About 30% of scenarios are the intersection, and work perfectly well in either game. About 35% each are RQG or HQG scenarios that don't work as well in the other game.

On 9/9/2019 at 5:29 PM, jpk said:

Thanks all (and Ian !), that Cinsina map and Lant Ulfar is very helpful. I'm feeling sympathetic to Willandring the Giant now - on a clear day, he can see the ruins and trappings of his ancestors in every direction. I'm thinking too that the Red Cow Ferry may suffer some catastrophic issues from Wandle's escalating ire in "The Missing"

I had two other questions :

Are there any specifics on how Orlmakt Nine-Winds accidently broke the spear "Ferfal's Fire" while on diplomatic mission ? He is described as "Clumsy", so was it simply a case of "Yeah, yeah, I swing it twice above my head before I hand it over, I know what to do ..." followed by "Ooops" ? I was wondering if it come up from something fun in actual play

Also : I see Red Cow clan chmapion Jordarn was killed in a duel the year before campaign start, and I can't see if the position was filled. Would the role default to head housecarl (Jaranil the Thunder), or is this position up for grabs, potentially by a PC ?  I can imagine Broddi is reluctant to assign someone new .. which would put them square in Rostakus's sights. Further to that - are many intra-tribe problems in Sartar resolved by Champions ? Feels like the path of least blood-shed.

Thanks again

Just clumsy I think. Simon Bray actually created that character for a freeform: "The Wolf that Came in from the Cold" so he might have had other ideas, but I think it was a klutz moment.

Back in Thunder Rebels a clan had a champion, who was the best fighter and would take up arms should the clan end up deciding to settle a lawsuit via single combat with their opponents, or decided to lead off a fight with their enemies in single combat. Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes didn't really pick that up, but I liked the position and kept that role for some clans. As @jajagappa implies, it's essentially the best fighter in the clan

4 hours ago, Chiarina said:

After 10 months of learning the HeroQuest rules, becoming acquainted to Glorantha (at least rudimentary), studying the "coming storm / eleven lights" campaign (and the two Sartar sourcebooks), writing players-wanted, getting refusals, getting expressions of interest turning into refusals, convincing players on cons and running three demonstration rounds I finally reached my goal. Yesterday six players finished their characters and we had kind of a prequel afterwards. For the most part we´re experienced roleplayer, but completely new to HeroQuest and Glorantha. We had a very fine evening - and some questions. Maybe I´ll ask some of them in this thread. For the present a novice from germany sends kind regards to the more experienced like-minded gamers.

Congratulations. Glad to have you aboard.

56 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Urban Sartar was not described in Thunder Rebels, and while some of the cults in Storm Tribe would have tended to be urban rather than rural, little effort (and no description at all) was dedicated to the daily lives of urban Sartarites.

We had a fair amount on Sartarite urban Orlanthi Pavis, and that material has been echoed in different versions of that text. We don't have so much on the Heortlanders, or the Esrolians, or even the Orlanthi cities of the EWF however.

8 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I assume that everything published is canon and then resolve differences myself. It's a lot easier.

I think you should use whatever you find valuable in the works that draw from Greg's well.

We will all be happier.

On 9/11/2019 at 6:10 PM, lordabdul said:

I think Ian's diatribe really comes from his place as a writer

I don't think it was a diatribe, more a vision of a different world. YMMV.

I'd like to clarify a couple of points. First, it is clear that we already have a divergent Glorantha. If I want to play stories in Glorantha **now** I can pick KoDP or Six Ages. I can pick 13th Age Glorantha. I can pick HQG. I can pick RQG. Or I could pick up an older presentation such as HW or RQ2. Over the years different creative voices have had their moment 'in the sun' and revised the setting to their liking. Add in fan publications that 'fill in the gaps' and there is a **lot** of versions of Glorantha. We have some touchstones, such as The Guide to Glorantha, but even from such a base, some drift is occurring.

Even canon has become a loaded term. What is canon for 13th Age is not canon for HQG is not canon for RQG is not canon for Six Ages.

All draw inspiration from the same well, yet all differ.

And so what to do? If a 13G book adventure is consistent with the Glorantha presented in a the 13G book, but not the one presented in RQG is that 'canon'. Is it even wrong? Should that 13G volume choose consistency with the core book, or a later RQG book that none of its players may have?

This is a very real question for the HQG line. Sartar Kingdom of Heroes and Sartar Companion are foundational works for the line, appearing even before HQG did. Should an HQG product conform to their description of the Orlanthi and Sartar? Of should they conform to the one described in an RQG book that players of that game do not have?

The alternative is that we try to move beyond 'canon' and look to stories instead. What story did KoDP want to tell? It wanted to tell the story of the resettlement of Dragon Pass by the Orlanthi? Was it going to be Sartar's story ever? No. It drew from that wellspring, but it was not that story.

Now I'm obviously not arguing for stupid inconsistencies that are born of laziness. But I am arguing for divergence being inevitable, ad judged on its own merits, provided what comes forth obviously originates from the well-spring.

Given we must accept YGWV at the table, why not go further and accept it on the door

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

This might explain some of my desire to linguistically clear the decks of "misleading" terminology like "cottar, carl, and thane" or of using Early Medieval Ireland as a model for understanding Sartar. Heck, if anything Classical Macedon or the Ghaznavids might be a better analogy (although those have lots of limitations as well). At the very least, it helps me see Sartar for the very unique place it is.

At some point we have to chose some terminology, and if we use terrestrial terms it comes with baggage. Given that we have weathered the baggage that we already have from Greg using terms such as odal, carl, cottar, thane, chieftain or even earl I am not sure that introducing new terrestrial terms won't just reset the clock to zero on those problems. Would using anax instead really help for example? The reference to Mycenean culture is probably more obscure than just using chieftain or king. And anyone reviewing older material, including the Guide to Glorantha is going to get very confused.

The category terms are fine for describing Glorantha cross-cultures, but lack resonance in play: "I am Koschei, a Free Common man of the Culbrea" is very flat.

I would suggest there is little to be gained from changing the established terms that we have in The Guide to Glorantha. The Orlanthi terms there are noble, thane, carl, cottar and thrall (and implicitly there is chief and priest). They have variants there too, if folks prefer 'translated' terms: noble, horseman, cattleman, sheepman, and slave if we need.

We know that the non-archeological evidence for Urnfield or Mycenean culture etc. is limited and we will always be limited to viewing them through the lens of the descendants be that the Irish of the Tain, the Scandinavians of Beowulf,  even the Myceneans of the Illiad (who are far more of Homer's time than their own). So be it. It's a fantasy world and we can explore such historical inaccuracies without fear.

14 hours ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

I think this thread's last couple of pages support Ian's comments admirably.

Indeed.

Dreams get some coverage in Revealed Mythologies, and there are Dream magicians in the East.

The goddess of dreams is Thella, better know to you and I perhaps as the White Moon goddess. And the Black Moon is the god of Nightmares. From Revealed Mythologies:

Quote

Misool Pulau, who is the second founder of Thellan reverence studied Seram Ambon’s method and met Thella in his dreams. He learned of the Net that protects the dreamer from succumbing to the Dream World. The Net makes it safe to dream, because it stops the dreamer from descending into the lower consciousness from which she cannot return. Misool Pulau learned that revering Thella is the way to keep the Net strong. Thella’s symbol is the White Moon that spreads gentle light and reveals the true path. But Avanapdur still lurks in the Dream World, in the dangerous realm beyond the Net. Avanapdur’s symbol is the Black Moon that sheds unlight and leads astray. He is now the god of false dreams and nightmares.

The text goes on to explain that the dream magician can bring things from the dream world into this. This sounds a lot like illusions of course. In HQG, Lunar Magic is described as Glamours effectively illusions, so there is a connection between Moon->Dreams->illusions

Also there are dangers of becoming a Dream Wraith from overextending yourself.

And of course reality is but an illusion

Quote

Thella then taught the mortals that truth lie in dreams. The universe is a sequence of dreams within dreams. Only by passing through all levels can the spirit reach Durapdur and become one with the world spirit.

Yes, as others have noted it comes from the Dragon Pass and is part of the remains of the giant. I'd not noted that we did not include those in the local gazetteer in this book.

On 9/3/2019 at 3:05 PM, Shawn Carpenter said:

Start a new Ability that can be traced back to the obsolete Ability. This is what we settled on. She came up with the idea that the experience had left her more resistant to provocation, so we started a new Ability (Thick Skinned) for her at 13 plus the points she'd invested in the hatred Ability.

The end result is that one Ability that no longer has any real value in play has been replaced with another of equal value that the player is already having fun with - and fun is the name of the game!

I'm sure there are different approaches that work better for other folks, but this sort of collaboration works well for me and my group. I hope you find this helpful!

I think that is a smart choice. It's worth bringing up in the new core book as a discussion point (over a rule).

I tend to invoke a really interesting idea by S .John Ross nowadays to describe the difference between the two; the Invisible Rulebook. The concept is that some games have more specific rules for what may happen, others less. So HeroQuest has just one universal rule (the contest) which GMs interpret for everything. RuneQuest has rules for a lot more things: how far you can jump, how much it hurts if you miss and fall etc. RuneQuest gives you a strong model of how its world works, HeroQuest relies on the interpretation of the GM (and if the GM wants a good play experience, the players). The advantage of an Invisible Rulebook game is speed, and flexibility. It's disadvantage is greater GM workload, you have to create far more rulings. [There is a lot of sympathy between the rulings idea in OSR and games like HQ].

Ultimately it's matter of taste. S. John Ross describes games like HQ as being 'high trust' meaning that they work well where players trust the GM's rulings. But another way of interpreting that is if you get entertainment from 'winning' against the GM and the challenges he sets, HQ is probably not the game for you. But if you want to tell fast-moving stories that cover a lot of ground as a group it may well be.

We are fortunate to have choice.

And it's possible to like both, for what each does, not 'choose a tribe'. In fact, that always feels like the smart choice.

Just saw this. Let me come back to you with a reply soon.

I suspect some of this also gets to the worship of Chaos gods in Fonrit etc. With no hordes of chaos creatures spilling from nests, and no strong mythic history of chaos blasting the landscape the cultural hatred of chaos is just not so ingrained in the south.

IIRC Sandy suggested that Pamaltela has more one-off monsters and less chaotic races. So it has the Mother of Monsters, not hordes of broo. Perhaps think about it like this. In most mythology when heroes fight monsters, they live in a known location, there at most a handful of them, and they are powerful enough to dispatch ordinary folks and barely break into a sweat. That is more the nature of chaos in Pamaltela than hordes of broo.

As Joerg points out, there was a 'geat chaos swap' envisaged at some point. No idea if that is still a plan.

On 8/22/2019 at 4:23 AM, Michael Hopcroft said:

The problem I see is that many genres are variations on other genres, leading to the likelihood of multiple creators working on things that might be considered very similar. Like distinguishing between wuxia, anime-style fantasy, and the really over-the-top shonen series like the Dragonball franchise (I'm thinking about the style, not getting a license to make a Dragonball game). Tat's the problem I face when I inquire about something like that -- how do I know someone else isn't doing something so similar that we'll eat into each other's market?

 

Yes, that is a risk with any OGL engine, and the more successful it is, like D20 or PbTA, the greater the risk that you will be playing in a crowded field. There isn't really a way to fix that.

Ultimately, the HQ system needs more players, and I suspect that Ryan Dancey's original argument around the OGL of the network effect remains helpful for HQ to pull in more people. The more games there are that use HQ, the more willing people will be to play it because they have played other games that use the engine. 

I can understand there is a risk to investing if you can't protect your monopoly over a certain genre using the engine, but I think the trade-off with increased market size through OGL is worth it.

Well a cumal, the value of a female slave in Ireland, was worth about three milk cows: https://everything2.com/title/cumal

HQ evaluated a cow to be 20 silver pieces, so this would give about 60 sp for a female slave. Presumably a male field slave might be more, based on the perceived economic value. You might also want to consider wergild prices, which assess economic value to be a good yardstick.

So the RQG figure of 5 cows is consistent with the established yardstick

16 hours ago, Lemurion said:

It looks like it would  certainly be possible to license it, though I don’t know if Chaosium would be willing to make the effort at this time. I just wanted to remind people that licensing the IP is a necessary step in the process. 

I had an informal conversation that indicated willingness to license to Chaosium. What I don't have his resources to commit to the effort right now, if we did get the license. If we had that, then it might be worth triggering conversations with the right people on both sides to understand if this could be made to happen. But without folks I know who could take this forward, it's not worth having that conversation, yet.

Whilst it would be interesting to do this, there is nothing currently 'in flight'. Drop me a line at ian@chaosium.com if you think you could do the necessary work to produce a HeroQuest genre pack

On 8/15/2019 at 2:10 AM, Michael Hopcroft said:

Thank you. Don't know what Chaosium would call "solid" though. And I need more of a track record, I believe. That's one reason I'm tearing my hair out over the Kickstarter.

We have new resource on the layout. Hoping to meet this week to finalize what we need to do to get it out the door. @Michael Hopcroft feel free to mail me at ian@chaosium.com and I will do what I can to help.