EricW

On 6/1/2023 at 10:18 AM, Jeff said:

Or the Pelorians.

The Monster Empire gets its title because Peloria is ruled by a monster, backed up by broo and other horrors. Dragons, barbarians, and trolls pillage lands once peacefully ruled by bright lords and Lunar mystics. It is the time of the Empty Emperor, and even a monster is better than no emperor at all.

So is your perspective that the Lunars actually support the monster empire, at least to an extent? I always thought of them as purely victims of a magical catastrophe they found themselves unable to escape?

The motivation sounds a bit off? If there is one defining trait of Arkat it is that his focus was utterly on his quest. He didn't want to selfishly do anything, every act was dedicated to purging the world of the influence of Gbaji. In the end he gave up everything to achieve his goal - his honour, his humanity, and who knows what else. 

Gbaji was selfish, self indulgent, power hungry, putting his needs before others solely for his own aggrandisement.

Is your hero quester seeking more power to achieve a goal, to defeat a chaos foe? Or do they just want to be more powerful. Because if it's the latter, it might not be Arkat they encounter on the heroplane. 

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Thus far, there’s no evidence for that. I mean, it’s a reasonable analogy, but only die-hard Bronze Age genocide-enthusiasts have pretended that everyone in the Empire was personally corrupted by Chaos by the time Argrath’s acts raised Wakboth to the imperial throne. It has unpleasant echoes of the way nasty regimes dehumanise their enemies (“Oh, they aren’t really people, this is just pest control”), and I prefer not to play with folk who like to think that way.

It doesn’t have to be genocide, I wasn’t suggesting that. Even in the last days there must have been innocents who needed rescuing, or Lunar rebels driven to desperation by the rising corruption, who needed help. The chaotic not a man who visited Argrath and pleaded for help suggests there were plenty who looked to Argrath as a saviour, even among the corrupted.

I wish there was more material on the progression of the empire into the heaving chaotic horror of the monster empire.

I get the sense chaos taints amongst Lunars were unusual up until the dragon rise? Like they were happy to use battlefield chaos magic, but left actual direct contact with chaos to the specialists.

But if the Lunars followed the progression of the 1st age illuminates when they found themselves losing to Arkat, at some point Lunars would have started being less fussy about who or what supplied the power they craved to win battles. At some point perhaps ordinary soldiers and commanders started increasingly partaking personally of the strengthening corruption?

If anything INT should be a penalty on SAN rolls. Intelligence does not equal sanity. Smart people have more chance of grasping the full implications of what they see.

What about using luck to influence the form of insanity? You could use luck to pick one of the insanities which allow them to function, kindof, like a mania for magic. Of course the downside is if they appear too functional, their fellow party members might not notice they are now in many respects a danger to the party.

Kirlian photography might be fun to work into a scenario. A lot of people think Kirlian is actually photographing auras, so obvious applications for mythos scenarios 

On 5/20/2023 at 6:57 AM, jajagappa said:

Triggered I believe by a FB post asking about the layout of Sog City, so really just a response to a Summon Cult Spirit spell. 🙂 

Beware the dark path of the pen… 🙂

Spiritualism is a persistent belief system.

My theory is it's based of variations of subvocalisation function. People's brains work in many different ways, a lot of people hear and converse with voices, which they sometimes call spirit. These are not crazy people, crazy is when you start doing horrible things the voices tell you to do, they're just a part of the diverse range of normal brain function. 

The reality is we talk to ourselves all the time - so the voices are real, it's an important part of cognition. There are ongoing attempts to capture this subvocal voice, with obvious implications ranging from curing mental illnesses to new interrogation techniques. Even if a prisoner resists regular interrogation, they might be talking to themself about the secret they are trying to conceal - in many cases it might be what we consider our own thoughts which are being subvocalised.

Obviously if there is any human interaction with the supernatural, this self chatter might be a place to start looking.

And I have looked - though I've never seen any evidence of additional knowledge, which would be a strong indication something strange was happening. Like if the voices in someone's head consistently leading them to buried treasure or murder victims or whatever, it would be pretty intriguing evidence something unusual was happening. But every indication I've seen to date is while some people believe they are talking to supernatural realms, whatever is happening doesn't give them any advantage in terms of knowledge or insight, beyond what you could reasonably expect an intelligent person to discover based on information they already have.

Probably a good thing - if Cthulhu existed, I'm not sure having access to the supernatural and magic would be worth the downside 😉

I can’t help thinking the trickster bond is a bit heavy handed. Tricksters should be subject to the lightbringer summons, but that’s limited duration?

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

That "My name is Legion" quote is much better than my Holy Trinity example. thanks mfbrandi.  👍

That being said, I'm not sure Yelmalio is a demon.  I didn't say you're wrong, just that I'm not sure.🤭

Product of a first age chaos god? 😉

Eurmal is the personification of wasted potential - the bright kid with no impulse control, who never studies, skips school, plays funny and cruel pranks with equal abandon, and the only reason you don't kill him on sight is he once helped save everyone - though critics might point out in a very real sense, he was also the cause of the prank which almost destroyed the universe. 

I suggest be very careful with Eurmal, otherwise he can be brutally power gamed. People who start trying to use Eurmal magic in an organised way should be punished severely, their god will start intervening and sending strange encounters to mess with them. In any case, Eurmal worshippers should rapidly accumulate a long list of enemies, which in itself will crimp their plans, because a lot of them will be so annoyed they'll come after the trickster.

Before you say the word "compromise", remember Eurmal breaks the rules. It's happened before, like in the second age when Eurmal almost wrecked the compromise when he decided to teach men to speak to dragons, probably because it seemed a good idea at the time.

Like imagine if there's a meeting, and Eurmal decides to help bring agreement by casting Eurmal's Harmony.

Eurmal's Harmony - causes everyone in a group to talk over each other, then leave believing everyone else agreed completely with everything they proposed.

What is the fallout when that goes wrong? After the tribes finish killing each other, and pause long enough to divine who is the author of their misery, that trickster better be a long way away! And the warring factions will find common ground and harmony, they'll all agree killing the trickster who caused all that loss and bloodshed is their highest priority.

PCs and NPCs surely don't have to dress as clowns - I mean, some might, but if you dress as a clown its like wearing a "kick me" sign, people will just attack you on sight. Pranks are more fun if they are a surprise. So liars, swindlers, womanisers, but like if they pull off the ultimate merchant cash box heist, they've lost it all by the next morning, just like Eurmal lost death on multiple occasions "I'm sure I put it somewhere, oh dang, that scary troll has it! DUCK!" 

I think its pretty near impossible to make such determinations, because an otherworld magical victory could tip the balance at any moment during a conflict.

For example, the Lunars managed to temporarily kill Orlanth, which devastated the magical capabilities of the Orlanthi rebels, until Orlanth was liberated.

Later the rebels somehow caused the dragon rise, and broke the hold of the Lunar occupiers - does this mean the rebels were more powerful than the empire? I mean they eventually defeat the empire?

Later still in the hero wars, Argrath resurrected Sheng Solaris, who killed and ate the Red Emperor, but in the process dealt a devastating magical injury to the forces of the Goddess. Does this mean Argrath and his army was stronger than the empire?

Even apparently obvious comparisons, like the the might of the Empire vs Dorastor. Consider what would have happened if the empire attempted to march into Dorastor and occupy it. Dorastor in the second age was so dangerous EWF adventurers who went to investigate were never heard from again, or returned as undead or chaos monsters. Ralzakark somehow restrained these horrors. But who knows what magical alliances and deals he made, and what horrible forces Ralzakark could call on if facing an existential challenge. It's likely Ralzakark knows God learner secrets extracted from those who resurrected him, and has access to magical myth mangling skills only matched by Argrath after his quest to talk to the dead god learners. The empire might eventually prevail in a conflict between Ralzakark and the emperor - but at what cost? And could we be certain of the outcome?

Or let's take another comparison, the empire vs Brithos - Zabur vs the magical might of the empire. Who would win that contest? Pretty impressive being the kind of sorcerer who can close off the seas of the entire world.

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Any idea as to how the process to bring Genert back could go wrong or be influenced by chaos and or evil, physically or spiritually? Knowing that 100's perhaps 100's or even 1000's of creatures are working to a positive outcome?

It'd need to be on a huge scale to have Genert raised as Wakboth, could happen but how do you see it occuring? Sounds pretty interesting and adds sub plotmotives for chaotics anywhere in the Wastes I suppose?

The block of Truestone holding Wakboth only just holds him. His minions continue to fight Storm Bull’s armies in the Eternal Battle, a contest so close to the mundane world  it can easily be visited. And the devil has repeatedly demonstrated his power to intrude into the world, such as his final conflict with Argrath and the death of the gods, which occurs after or as the moon is being torn from the sky.

The point is the devil is magically close to Prax.

it would be a near certainty that an attempt to resurrect a major god in Prax would attract the devil and his minions, who would attempt to pervert the ritual. And there is a solid mythical foundation for that perversion, instead of the ritual stopping with the resurrection of Genert, the traitors could attempt to push the ritual forward to the battle of Earthfall, when chaos gods murdered Genert and dissolved his armies in a display of forces never before seen.

Such a major eruption of chaos would be extremely dangerous so close to the block.

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

This was discussed and could be really interesting... really bad. How would one prevent the repaired Genert from being an evil twin?

I was referring to Wakboth. Casting a divinity scale resurrection spell in Prax has its potential pitfalls.

27 minutes ago, Manunancy said:

Who where the sacrificed ? Something on that scale feels fraught with risks, especially if the sacrificed didn't volunteer for the job.

Isn't the eternal battle still being fought way too close for comfort to the mundane world in Prax - the spirit armies of Storm Bull still fight the followers of Wakboth, to keep his power contained? If you sacrifice a thousand people in a gigantic and rather morally dubious resurrection spell, and open a gate to the otherworld big enough for a god to step through, it might not be Genert you resurrect. 

On 4/26/2023 at 2:34 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Some sort of real-world god-learner project going on... and someone has one in their yard. I am sure dwarves would kill and steal for this iron jolanti which they would claim was made by them. Yes they would also say that their paten was infringed upon when this copper fabric smoking jacket was shown on the runway so they'd kill or steal that as well.

  

Clanking City Mechamagic will be the go in our world, as soon as ChatGPT finishes designing it. Obviously the cheap version you'll have to wait for the Google video advertisement to finish playing before you can use your mechanically augmented strength to punch someone out in a bar fight. 

On 4/23/2023 at 8:15 AM, Darius West said:

You raise an interesting point about what Mostali wear Erol.  I imagine their ordinary clothes might be a bit like this...

While Mostali lingerie might be a bit more like...

I wonder which trickster convinced them they were a tailor?

A visit to the green age, where now dead gods like Genert walk untroubled, spreading their bounty and giving their gifts freely, where the people never age, where the authority of Yelm is absolute, where the Spike is the center of the world. 

What gifts can be retrieved? What dangers lurk in a place where death is still a secret under the watchful guard of Vivamort, where Malia is a healing goddess?

I think you could have a lot of fun with this. There are cases in stories where someone averts their gaze or lose consciousness and avoid SAN loss - I mean, you can't lose SAN loss from seeing Deep Ones in the distance if you are blind. But if they come up for a cuddle, I'd maybe charge double SAN loss, being touched by something horrible and alien, feeling trapped and helpless - how traumatic would that be?

And after a while, when the disadvantages become too much, you could offer the PC an opportunity to learn some mythos sight spell, say a tablet written in an ancient dialect of brail. Then san loss for everyone - a person without eyes who can see, and the PC themselves having their perceptions widened maybe a little too much, like X-ray vision, or limited perception of other realms. And don't forget when it comes to mythos, if you can see them, they can generally see you.

14 minutes ago, Nozbat said:

Absolutely agree with @EricW.. Investigators should loose SAN at every opportunity when casting Mythos spells.. at least in my game. The Mythos should only be used when absolutely everything else has been tried and the inherent risks for users should be obvious and drastic. What SAN represents is the human mind trying to understand and categorise the incomprehensible. The inability to do that, as in the real world, causes a dissociative effect which in game mechanics is SAN loss (providing they comprehend the enormity of events through an INT roll).

It does depend on how you want to run your campaign though. If you want to give Investigators some form of advantage and it suits the narrative, let them bind and dismiss Mythos creatures without (or minimal) SAN loss. I think what is important is the terror and horror of it all to creative a narrative for maximum fun (or terror)

There's definitely a case for benign defensive use of mythos magic, like the Arkham professors who used magic gleaned from their texts to dispel The Dunwich Horror. 

But someone who reaches out to the mythos, who initiatives the contact, it should always be a two way street ;-).

"... happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain, and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes. ..." - The Necronomicon (The Festival by H P Lovecraft)
 

I think be merciless. Nobody should use magic like that - san loss every step of the process, horrible nightmares, risk of attracting the attention of beings from beyond or other wizards who want to "help", distant discordant piping music at night, mythos skill gain, paranoia about other party members, the world looks strange, everything seems hollow and insubstantial, like if you look at it the wrong way you would see something very different to everyday perception, other party members wondering if their "friend" has gotten a bit close to their enemies.

And the knowledge, horrible knowledge, of what shamblers actually do to people - a fate worse than death.

And the realisation - there is no such thing as a locked door, in a universe where things can pass between dimensions as easily as a human crosses a road. Is that a shambler hiding in the corner, in a wardrobe, or under the bed? But there might be a solution, a dimly remembered reference on page 547 of the Necronomicon, of a vile blood ritual which can create a talisman which offers some protection against the "visitors". All the player needs to decide is who to sacrifice. 

If the block was removed, Wakboth would likely destroy the world. Argrath  faced the Devil but could even he have faced Wakboth in his totality, completely liberated from the Block?

The Shield of Time and other time patrol books by Poul Anderson.

Beautiful descriptions of historical settings and a surprisingly Gloranthan feel considering it’s a time travel book.

If you consider the distant future god like Danielans, who set up the time patrol, intervening to protect history as soon as time travel was invented, and journeys into the past as heroquests into myth which affect the present, then you will see why I say this.

And of course, the stories have several cases where the future is overthrown by criminals, or one disturbing case where the future just collapsed by itself, and had to be reconstructed.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Argrath -- like Arkat before him -- is an ambiguous figure.
It's not entirely clear that he's not a  "cure that's worse than the disease." 

The alternative was rule by Wakboth, slavery as the plaything of brutal chaos fiends, until the final dissolution of the world. The world was already falling apart, a process which accelerated under the monster empire. Chaotic magic was causing manifestations like the shadow's good shadow;

Quote

 

... The Red Emperor, who had served the Red Goddess for so long, was gone. The beings who took his place were not human, and had objectives which were beyond human ken. The empire of evil did not lack supporters who sought to get whatever they could before the end of their days. Anyone with compassion was seen as a willing victim, and the oppression within the empire was far worse than the military efforts outside of it. They let the Ice come, because it suited them.

[Then Shadow’s Good Shadow came and begged the High King for help. This being was a pure victim of the corruptive, life‐sapping imperial policies. She was not really female, but was called female because she was a shadow of what a man could have been without being a woman. This sort of non‐being was common within the empire at this stage of history, for the very fabric of the world was coming unwoven because so much Chaotic magic was being used.]

The King was not the only person to be alarmed by this oncoming disaster. The dissolution of the world had progressed so far that many of the ancient gods woke into conscious action. Those beings had been forbidden by their own oaths to ever intervene directly into the world of life unless their very essence was threatened with entropic destruction. And in the days when the Great King fought against the Monster Empire, the gods walked beside him. The Great King sent messengers to all of the other great leaders of the world, and he asked all of them who loved freedom and life to send their best and bravest heroes to help him remove even the shadow of the Moon from the world. ...

 

The "... fabric of the world coming unwoven ..." doesn't sound like a good alternative to Argrath pulling down the moon and ending the reign of horror.