EricW

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

I haven't really thought about it but I see the post-moon Glorantha less different. Some Rune Magic (but maybe not all) stops working but sorcery will be there as long as there are runes. And spirit magic will work as long as there are spirits.

But IF (a huge IF) the Great Compromise falls things becomes different. The Compromise is about time and things like birth, death and rebirth. An end of the Compromise could thru Glorantha back to the Gods age. But that is the opposite of "magic no longer working".

All the gods are gone? So rune magic is gone?

It is possible some magic would still work. 

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

My father is a chemist with a background in metallurgy and has schooled me on the properties of various metals.  Yeah, cast iron swords are a no go. 

As to the unalloyed metal issue. what we call iron and bronze in RQ are not those metals as we know them.  Bronze is Hu Metal, and Iron is Ur Metal.    

In our world cast iron becomes steel by using oxygen to draw out some of the carbon, by melting the iron, then working the hot iron to squash out all the impurities.

The pure wrought iron can then be gently recarbonised back to steel by melting the iron mixed with charcoal, though there are many variations on this process.

Some superior steels were created when molybdenum chromium or whatever we’re added - the ingredients of modern stainless or high strength steels. Ancient chromium steel must have seemed like magic, bright and shiny after all else rusts away.

Of course no way of knowing if post moon fall Glorantha follows any of these rules

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

OK, a few thoughts on the Invisible Orlanth. We all know that the Invisible Orlanth movement holds that Orlanth is an emanation of Idovanus, sent to liberate the world of Ganesatarus. Orlanth is invisible because he is in hiding until it is time for him to strike against Ganesatarus. 

Although the Invisible Orlanth is inspired by the Theyalan Orlanth cult, it is not the Orlanth cult we all know - like the Roman Mithras its actual continuity with the Theyalan cult is debatable. It might provide some Rune magic to its initiates though, such as Summon/Command/Dismiss Air Elemental, Cloud Call, etc (I'm still uncertain about that). Or maybe it doesn't, and it is only a philosophical/prophetic movement. What matters is that it says that Orlanth is HERE but invisible (for now). 

The Invisible God movement is certainly politically problematic for the West Reaches. The Lunar Governor wants it proclaimed a heresy by the Heirophant, but Brostangian refuses. Many of the Carmanian viziers want it proclaimed a heresy as well, but again Brostangian refuses. Whether this is because of kinship, manipulation by his mother, or genuine belief that it is not a heresy, nobody knows for certain (best bet is all three).  

Invisible Orlanth gets tied into all sorts of mangled prophecies of the Hero Wars. Is this somehow a glimpse of Harrek and Argrath? Of the lifting of the Ban in Charg? Of the fall of the Red Moon or the demise of the Lunar Empire?

It could simply be politics. The Lunars see Orlanth as a threat, so by dragging his feet on squashing an Orlanth manifestation the Hierophant gets to demonstrate independence, proves he is not a Lunar pawn, and maybe squeezes some concessions. 

The fact Invisible Orlanth leaders haven't suffered an unfortunate accident during a full moon IMO suggests they have access to some impressive magic.

9 hours ago, Darius West said:

So a bit like the collapse of Civilization that happened at the end of the Bronze Age?  

Possibly, but that collapse was caused by a new kind of weapon, or rather sudden widespread availability. The Egyptians knew about iron before the Iron Age, but their only source was meteoric iron, so it was incredibly rare.

Possibly some hyper aggressive groups discovered all the shocked and confused survivors were easy pickings, and didn’t need new weapons other than their aggression, so maybe it was similar.

I think if you meet Gloomshark your goose is cooked, Gloomshark is the chaos god of hunger. But maybe a child of Gloomshark?

3 hours ago, JRE said:

This is treading on a future we may never get to see (the 1630s), but it is interesting that the three kingdom Talar will face against probably the independent West Reaches and then Phargentes, in the North, and Safelster arkati and Arkati influenced orlanthi from Lankst, which means both Invisible Orlanth and the Chariot of Lightning at the forefront of the conflict.

I like that it takes the spotlight from Argrath and the Red against Blue conflict. The Talar has Mostali and Brithini support, so this can go two ways, either a monotheist reaction against the invisible storm, which means they see the invisible storm as a threat. or the Western forces are actually on a crusade against theists, starting with the nearer ones. A weirder option would be to have the Talar as Gbaji, but it does not resonate as powerfully. 

Phargentes success and the fact that he manages to return from several deaths (if we trust Ethilrist) would mean his new Lunar way (probably his mother's idea) actually manages to reunify and revitalize the Empire, including Saird, Holay and probably Talastar and Brolia, which brings a lot of storm related peoples. I would expect he reaches some kind of accommodation with the Storm Pentans, so he may have  succesfully integrated a non-competing Orlanth-Red Moon structure, as Eff envisioned.

Pity it all falls when Sheng eats him.

I see post moon fall as more a post nuclear apocalypse world. I mean the gods no longer answer, magic no longer works, even the memory of magic grows dim, given that when chaos eats things the memory of what was eaten can disappear. Empires would be completely stricken, all their communication and battle magic would simply no longer work. Worse, people would be hungry, too hungry to bother with empires and world affairs. Instead of magicking up a bountiful harvest, people would have to learn from scratch how to grow food. And the first few harvests would be dismal, bugs would eat the food, crops would fail, and nobody would have any idea how to fix it.

No wonder it was called the age of illiteracy, anyone who got hold of a book would burn it for warmth. I mean its not like all those colourful descriptions of magic and divinity would be any use to anyone in the post moon fall world.

The Yakuza was sent to retrieve a valuable artefact from the occult professor. The rest are there to help identify the artefact.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I suspect that Argrath and the Sartar Magical Union will change people's perspective on sorcery.  It's only bad when the enemy is doing it to you.  When your sorcerers are doing it to the enemy... not so bad.

Argrath lit the flame of Sartar, and won victories, so Orlanth clearly approves of his dragon and sorcery weirdness.

Not sure if anyone else gets a pass, unless they are well known as an Argrath associate. “Do you want to raise another dragon? Idi*t leave the high magic to those what understands wot they are doin!”

There is a real world example to draw on which made me think of Arkat societies when I learned about it, the battles fought in the Bethlehem church of the nativity, between different Christian societies.

They all mostly have the same goal, but have big disagreements over who gets to do what, and who the apostate is. 

The Muslim authorities mostly leave them alone, and have respected the rights of Christians to practice their religion in Bethlehem since the Second Caliph 'Umar ibn al-Khattāb conquered the region in AD 637.

Even Saladin allowed some Christians to continue to use the church, after he retook the city from the crusaders. 

I always understood "Invisible Orlanth" to be Orlanth as the invisible god, a sorcerous Orlanth cult. 

There was a thread discussing Invisible Orlanth here.

Of course sorcery might not always be an advantage. An "Invisible Orlanth" worshipper who starts wielding sorcery in Sartar, where everyone knows sorcery is an evil magic wielded by Lunars, soulless god learners and illuminates, might receive a hostile reaction - especially if there are any Orlanth shaman tradition types around.

svennson said

I agree with DW, to a large extent. Humans are squishier than Mythos creatures and no amount of science ought to change that. 

I think the science point is key. Mythos magic is science, alien science beyond human comprehension, except maybe to the very smartest humans.

And you really don’t want to expose lots of smart humans to the mythos.

”.., if superior minds were ever placed in fullest contact with the secrets preserved by ancient and lowly cults, the resultant abnormalities would soon not only wreck the world, but threaten the very integrity of the universe.…” - The Horror at Red Hook, HP Lovecraft.

Both good.

"... Cursed the ground where dead thoughts live new and oddly bodied, and evil the mind that is held by no head. Wisely did Ibn Schacabao say, that happy is the tomb where no wizard hath lain, and happy the town at night whose wizards are all ashes. For it is of old rumour that the soul of the devil-bought hastes not from his charnel clay, but fats and instructs the very worm that gnaws; till out of corruption horrid life springs, and the dull scavengers of earth wax crafty to vex it and swell monstrous to plague it. Great holes secretly are digged where earth's pores ought to suffice, and things have learnt to walk that ought to crawl. ..." - The Festival, by HP Lovecraft.

In a sense it doesn't matter. Any adventurer who doesn't burn the village down after saving it is asking for trouble, in the mythos universe. And even the corpse of the creature, rotted into goo or just sitting there, could cause SAN loss and who knows what havoc. Just because it stopped moving, you can't be completely sure it can no longer cause harm - the mythos operates on rules beyond human understanding. 

 "Death is just the beginning" applies with a vengeance to the Cthulhu Mythos. Burnt ashes are more difficult to resurrect, and less likely to cause trouble - though not impossible to resurrect. And if I ever find myself in Arkham, like a real life "In the Mouth of Madness" experience, I'm not drinking the water.

Eurmal gave death to high king elf under dubious circumstances. If you find a trickster who just stole the humakt cult sword back after his Orlanthi pal used the stolen sword to kill a yelm priest, you could probably create a bow which is a heroic manifestation of death. Perhaps a sever spirit with every hit, damage vs power.

Of course setting all this up could be a challenge, like finding a trickster willing to walk into a Humakt temple and steal their most treasured relic.

The god which burns water could probably provide an underwater fire spell, but summoning the god was a feat the God Learners performed at the height of their power, so you're probably talking serious hero quest to get access to such magic.

I've no idea whether standard speed dart or true spear or whatever works underwater. I'd suggest probably not - you probably need a water magic version of those spells (true harpoon?) to work properly underwater. Though the watery version should probably be penalised if the projectile enters the air, the water gods and air gods have fought several battles. 

15 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

I don't know that the God Learners were actually teaching all the trickster spells to everybody (that wouldn't be the first time they did something reckless and stupid) but they did "study the various incarnations of the trickster god", so it's safe to say that you had all the types of tricksters there, having kombucha together. I would simply start with all the spells described in RQG's Eurmal write-up. With more than 20 special Rune spells, that's more than enough as far as I'm concerned.

You can trickster spells up as you go - like I just made up "Trickster Gift" - which causes a random attribute change which you hope will wear off in 15 minutes. Witnesses have to roll int x 5 or collapse laughing.

Or "Eurmal's Harmony" - area effect spell, causes everyone to talk over each other and leave the meeting with the impression that everyone agreed to everything they suggested.

Or "Telefart" - causes a stink to appear at a chosen location within line of sight of the caster.

Or "Eurmal's Flight Spell". This one actually allows the trickster to fly, but requires the user eat a bowl of beans or a hot spicy dish before attempting the spell.

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Yes, something like that, but how many rune points or feats is a character likely to have? I suspect things would not go wrong often enough. I mean, Wile E.’s ACME “magic” always goes wrong, and he hasn’t even managed to fry one little bird, yet. Or maybe it is the Road Runner we should be scared of.

—————————————

… plus trickster magic has to go wrong frequently, so they have plausible deniability when they do stab you in the back.

Trickster magic frequently causes things to go wrong without the help of unexpected effects if the PC is playing it right 🙂

Seriously you don’t need unexpected effects for a PC trickster to get into a lot of trouble. Mastery of stealth skills comes quickly to trickster PCs.

Consider the spell “Trickster gift”, which causes a random attribute change which you hope will wear off in 15 minutes. Witnesses have to roll int x 5 or collapse laughing.

8 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

This could be arbitrarily complicated, or it could be very simple: the trickster player says what is supposed to happen, then the GM rolls a D4 or D6 to determine the number of things which go wrong and narrates whatever she thinks is amusing. If the GM cannot be trusted — perish the thought — draw misfire effects from a deck of cards. Elaborate to taste, for example allowing more control over weaker magics. So, for example, a trickster describes a weakened version of an effect she should be able to pull off, so the GM rolls D6-2, rolls a 4, and draws 2 misfire effects from the deck. You don’t need a special deck, just a table, which can be improvised on the spot, if need be (e.g. as a way of stake setting).

This way, you can have a trickster character who can cause carnage but not to order, and so cannot be a munchkin because the player lacks sufficient control. To me, this sounds like more fun than playing a bonded trickster — I would keep bonded tricksters for NPCs, but some will like putting on the gimp mask and the leash.

An illuminated trickster is fine, but what would they be like? Think Zorak Zoran, who saw the light but wound up more erratic than he was before: more power perhaps, but even less control. Even if an illuminated trickster is not spotted as an illuminant, they might be spotted as a trickster when their reality distortion field goes on the fritz.

Playing a trickster is pretty deadly so I would reserve this for tricksters who are treating their magic like a source of power, rather than doing their best to amuse their god with their antics.

Or you could play a mythos style system, subtract the number of rune points or learned feats from a hundred, then roll under that number for everything to go right :-). A trickster with a hundred rune points of magic would be fearsome source of disorder 

Every cult connection is a hero quest. So to become a Wind Lord I would suggest you need to pay homage to something important from Orlanth’s life, like kill a dangerous monster threatening the tribe.

Eurmal PCs are great fun to play. The other members of the party tend to barely tolerate them because they are so useful, invisibility spells, thief skills, and that awesome lie spell. But of course nobody is immune to the pranks.

Eurmal PCs are a lot of trouble to be around. Why bother paying for anything when you can use the formidable magics of your god to steal or cheat? Its pretty much a religious duty. Eurmal PCs never run out of money, between pick pocket or emptying the money box while everyone is busy fighting over WHO STOLE THAT COW, they always have a pocket full of cash. Of course, any associate of the trickster could get in trouble hanging around their "friend" - the cowardly trickster can just turn invisible and hide in the corner, leaving the other PCs to deal with the angry mob. 

I think its important to hand out power in tiny drabs, otherwise Eurmal players can power game up to pretty much invincible very quickly. Remember there is no rule against tricksters using magic on each other, so approaching a powerful shrine like lie or strike, the PC has a fair chance of becoming a victim to the very magic they are seeking to learn. This of course can involve the entire party in ridiculous delusions or dangerous encounters. Visiting the temple in Slontos would be unimaginably dangerous, Eurmal likely has an infinite range of spells, and a great temple, where all of those spells would be available, would attract powerful trickster heroes who would have no compunction over attacking the PC, if there was anything in it for them. 

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

b) be very very suspicious! We all know that Lunars are those chaos-worshipping "Illooominattted" types, and so probably is Tom! Explain how this is worrying, and also explain how the Lunars murdered hundreds and thousands of your kinfolk, and can never ever be trusted! And that it would be best for that Lunar to not be seen around too often. Unless, of course, that Lunar is passing on vital information that could be useful. If the Lunar is willing to give up their ways, and join the worship of Orlanth, then maybe...

That's a very good point - maybe the lunar sorcerer could ask the PC a few riddles...

In “Orlanth is Dead” they talk about returned hostages who behave like Lunars (dirtshines) and lots of spies.

Think Vichy France.

I think Tom would be in big trouble, everyone would assume the Lunar sorcerer was his spy handler. But they would be frightened to act openly, because of the risk of Lunar retaliation. More likely a knife in the night or an accident.

Who caused the rise of the dragon which devoured the reaching moon temple in Sartar? Kallyr? Argrath? Someone else?

The Saint - he steals from criminals, usually by deception, lies a lot, rarely kills people. Sometimes nice to people, tries to give money to victims, sometimes harsh, like when he branded a rapist on the face with a red hot iron.

The Stainless Steel Rat - a criminal who rarely kills, who is sometimes persuaded to help hunt worse criminals. Married to one of those worse criminals, a murderous lady who had a conscience surgically implanted, after a career of mayhem. The implanted conscience wears thin every time she thinks he is looking at other women.

Gloranthans can always ask their gods or use a magic compass. There are probably some spectacularly detailed maps, created by sages, EWF and god learners, but most people probably don’t need such precision.

”Hey Eurmal, I need some directions..,” 🙂

6 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

A theory, he says. Could one get more Tricksterish than Arkat — “No, he’s Gbaji!” — Nysalor, the lozenge’s greatest one-person double act and magisterial manipulator of smoke and mirrors?

An illuminated Trickster is surely a follower of Eurmal the destroyer, Eurmal the world wrecker, who kept stealing death and passing it around for laughs - Eurmal before he got scared of all the vengeful victims relentlessly pursuing him, and ran to Orlanth for help.