icebrand

On 11/22/2020 at 10:54 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for augmenting Spirit Combat with Sing, much as I hate to say it (my character is a great singer) page 139 pretty much kaboshes that:  "typical" time for Sing (or Dance) is minutes.

I'd completely allow that. Singing bothers spirits, and it should give a bonus because it's happening during the combat.

Double post plz remove!

Does anyone feel it should be the other way around? 

Like, shields having HP and breaking (while fully protecting the user) and weapons having AP (and powerful hits sliding and hitting the parrier instead of breaking the weapon) just makes more sense.

This gives us an interesting mechanic: you shield parry (which is better, as it should) until your shield breaks, and then have to rely on your weapon.

Weapons would have AP (half their HP rounding up, which gives the RQ3 value more or less). Tracking weapon AP like in RQ3 would be optional.

This would prevent gameplay "features" such as people parrying with their iron sword (30 hp) instead of their shield (12 ap) until the sword gets low, which seriously, makes no sense at all.

I loved it!!!

You should use this as a "demo" pdf and do a full pdf with all the gods and a bit deeper on game mechanics! I would buy it! (Idk what's chaosium deal with 3rd parties ATM, maybe you can't and it's a lot of work for pure fan material)

In rq3 (book 2, pg57) under "binding enchantment" it clearly says:

"Binding enchantments are species specific so an enchantment created to capture one species of creature cannot be used to capture another species"

RQG (pg249) under "binding enchantment"

The item to serve as the binding enchantment must be enchanted 
with 1 point of POW per characteristic possessed by the creature.

Thus, a typical spirit binding enchantment requires a sacrifice of at least 2 points of POW (as spirits always have CHA and POW, and sometimes INT), while a binding 
enchantment for an elemental requires at least 3 points of POW (elementals always have SIZ, STR, and POW). 

2 hours ago, allenowen said:

So you want them to, what...totally change the Sorcery rules in RQG to suit you? What do you want done? 

Changing the sorcery rules would be nice.

Getting rid of the one round cast time (leave the rest as is) would be a good start.

Say that the sorcery flavor of the grey sages is slower but true sorcerors don't need the 1round start up because they are more efficient in their way of approaching sorcery, due to not having to do through a god. BAM! Sorcery kinda fixed.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Bob the Janitor is very good at what Bob the Janitor does, but not particularly good as what Bob the Janitor doesn't do. 

A good GM would not allow Bob the Janitor to use Janitor for everything, unless the Player came up with a good enough rationale. For example, knowing how to play the piano "because I used to stand and listen while the kids performed" is going to be a big stretch, but playing "because I played when the kids had gone home" might work.

 

I take it you never GMed for a shop teacher, a physicist and a plastic bag salesman / reporter lol.

8 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Is Form/Set (Fire) the specific issue? Finger of Fire in the RAW is almost exactly the same spell, well the bottom half where it describes hitting people with a controlled substance anyway. You could easily add a Stasis Rune or something and make it exactly Form/Set Fire? What were they accomplishing with their cinematic Hero moments that are currently lacking in RQ:G?

No, the problem is that players usually take the path of least resistance. I want to kill the enemy runelord.

Why bother spending magic points for magic damage when a damage boosted sword is clearly much better? (It always was). 

So the magic damage takes a step back and it's only good against magically unskilled low armor opponents... And the damage boosted sword is looking even more effective.

So now our spells are only good for long range... But turns out a random dude with a bow will drop 3 enemies by the time you casted once... 

Now imagine you are with your group, and by the time you cast a spell the combat is over. This isn't very fun for the sorcerer, is it?

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am not sure what you are even talking about. RuneQuest does not use RQ3 sorcery for Glorantha. You are totally welcome to use it in your Glorantha, but it sounds like your Glorantha is quite different from the official published material. Which is totally fine - but also makes this discussion kind of pointless. 

Well, we started playing with RQ3, GoG, and Genertela. I'm pretty sure glorantha has rq3 sorcery, i have the books right here. Sandy Petersen sorcery rules are a popular alternative and later published stuff is clearly inspired on both.

If you meant "RQG doesn't have rq3 sorcery" I agree 100% and that's my issue. Because it does have Rq2-3 battle and rune magic (with some changes, but it's an evolution of the system).

Lets say RQ8 has rune magic taking 5 SR for rune point. Wouldn't you agree that would be a radical departure from how rune magic worked since the OG runequest? Would you consider this an issue and if so, why isn't an issue for sorcery?

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Now from what is in the rules, it is pretty easy to come up with a few additional spells, including something that lets a sorcerer take some portion of all the magic points offered by the worshipers in a Worship Invisible God ceremony presided over by said sorcerer and store them somehow; some spells that let you summon specific very powerful entities; spells that let you command said specific very powerful entities; and some wards against specific elements, etc. Take that and you have the core of Malkioni magic.

The various sects are on a continuum, from purely materialist Brithini and Vadeli who use NO magic except sorcery, to folk like the Black Horse Troop who receive Rune Magic (!) by worshiping various demigods and heroes almost in a form of ancestor worship. The latter was common among the God Learners who would would establish connections to entities - or even create conjectural entities that logically should work, create cults so those entities could be worshiped, and then siphon off some percentage of the magic and wield the power of that "artificial god" for themselves.

 

I love all you say, but again, why can't sorcerers form/set fire on people anymore? They have been doing it for 35 years up to RQG (HW/HQ did shift them hard to support, but they still were able to use their spells on the fly, and we're IMHO the most versatile they have ever been.  

Sadly everyone I roleplay with dislike hw/hq with a passion. My players even created this "bob the janitor" character who was a high school janitor and had "janitor" as his one and only skill with several masteries...

And then make this mock adventures to show how bob used janitor to beat every challenge and prove the system was bad. They convinced me.

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Well I can't really help you there. Greg has a few descriptions of sorcery in his stories and it is ceremonial or "demonology" (summon and commanding entities) or usually both - not fast stuff that gives you something to do every round. If you want an action every round, sorcery is probably not the right choice. 

I would argue that that was ritual magic, and having a few descriptions of sorcerers performing rituals doesn't mean they can't cast spells in combat in an effective way compared to the other magic systems. Sorcerers in RQ and other brp fantasy settings have been working similarly since the OG magic world and through every iteration of BRP and HW/HQ.

I understand wanting another twist on the established canon (this is a new edition after all), i just find it... Not my Glorantha, sorcerers have been promimently featured as NPC and PCs since 1997, if I change how they work this much that wouldn't be *our* (my PCs and fellow GMs and mine) Glorantha anymore.

The other systems fit perfectly in our canon and sound solid, we decided we will keep playing our RQ2/3 hybrid (it rocks) with added stuff from RQM -

So far we adding passions, runes, reputation and still didn't get to magic but we have to check shamans carefully, shaman nerfs are a *very* touchy subject, and will probably use RQM rune magic system with RQ2 cults.

Spirit magic we will keep using RQ2 battle magic and sorcery RQ3 sorcery.

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I really don't get why long casting times should be a hard pill to swallow. It just is what it is. Like complaining that Rune Points require sacrifices of points of POW.

Because your adventurer gets one action every 2 or even 3 rounds and everyone else in the table is acting every round (some several times). People usually find more fun to do stuff every round and not multi-round actions, especially if those multi round actions are not more impactful than everyone else's (or even less one could argue).

Just now, Anunnaki said:

You are correct. RQ2 RAW doesn't do POWx5 for casting. It works like this:

1. If there is no resistance roll required by the spell, then it succeeds 95% of the time (96-00 fails), even if cast on willing recipients.
2. If there is a resistance roll (POW vs POW, for example), that is your casting roll (96-00 is a fail again, of course).

There's no potential for double rolls, like RQ3/G, where you may need to make a casting roll and a resistance roll.

Page references in my earlier post.

Kind regards, James

We play it like that, only that when there is no resistance and you have <10 MP your cast chance goes down!

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Verbatim the same in the Guide to Glorantha, p.205, so no, this has not been Gregged.

I second the observation that this statement does not mention sorcery in any way.

The Xeotam Dialogues are the published semi-deep source for Malkioni sorcery.

The source for men-of-all heroquesting is basically Hrestol's Saga, where the protagonist - a talar caste Malkioni of impeccable standing and experienced in commanding soldiers and wizards in the field - undergoes training in the tasks of the other three castes, learning the way of the warrior, of the commoner (like animal care, crafting at least to the point where he can make field repairs, cooking) and the wizard (literacy, magical theory, magical perception - the latter through ritual, which is another word for spells).

But then, the Malkioni of Hrestol's time were a henotheist bunch similar to Waertagi practices. That changed a century later, when the Seshnegi became rabidly monotheistic, and imposed that on other Malkioni - though with greater distance, not with lasting success.

 

That means that you already have a working solution for your ongoing games.

Making magic an automatic success is (at least to me) a radical departure from RuneQuest. Even Divine Magic in RQ3 (Rune Magic in RQ2) had a 5% chance of misfiring.

Hanging the non-elemental cults off a subset of the opposed runes that double as character-traits is nerfing those cults: All Lightbringers other than Orlanth, Humakt, Donandar and similar cultists either stop being self-determined human beings pulling the opposed traits of the runes they are using for their cult magic down to 5% or their magic becomes highly unreliable. 

Sorcery has always been presented as starting with ridiculously low casting chances upon learning (or researching/creating) a spell. The binary approach to having mastered a rune or a technique takes the additional limiter of the manipulation skills that RQ3 used out of the picture, while limiting the aspiring sorcerer in other ways.

Nothing has been published as RuneQuest-related rules material. But then, RQG has a "backlog" on all kinds of theistic magics, too, and a backlog on the presentation of the setting in urban and suburban Sartar.

 

Everybody does. And how RuneQuest describes Glorantha is not necessary the whole truth of the world. RuneQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha is one approach - currently the favored one by Chaosium. But there are other approaches that may have perspectives at rather different angles, with different solutions. The Thirteenth Age in Glorantha approach bends those rules to approximate canonical Glorantha, while at the same time distancing itself from anything produced so far, voluntarily going off in different angles of undiscovered futures.

The HeroQuest Glorantha approach is a lot less rules-rigid than either its predecessor HQ1 or any form of RuneQuest.

 

"Cheating on heroquests" is a very unfortunate phrasing.

Everybody "cheats" when preparing themselves for a heroquest. Gloranthan questers bring "metagame knowledge" into their quests - they enter with the expectation of something almost like a liturgy, and better have prepared rote reactions to all those stations they don't want to take any specific advantage from other than getting to the stations where they want to reap rewards.

IMO the difference of Malkioni men-of-all going on such quests is that they do it as third-person questers rather than as first-person "looking through the eyes of my deity" questers as theists are wont to do. This isn't entirely alien to theist heroquesters - they too can reap rewards from interaction with other deities pretty much like the men-of-all do, in a way reminiscent of associate cult spells. Where the theist questers bring their identification with their deity to bear, the Malkioni quester brings his magical preparation from the wizards' blessings to bear.

Thank you for your in depth response, it is much appreciated and very well written!

Also I didn't want to go into deep unneccesary detail; we use RQ2 magic with RQ3 sorcery (with a few spell tweaks, for example damage boosting is +1 / 2 intensity. 

For both battle magic and rune magic we just do pow vs pow. If you cast vs a non resisting target you do MP vs 0 MP, so you still have 95% (and less if you are low).

Afaik Rq2 RAW doesn't have Pow x5 to cast battle magic, or else I've been playing wrong for like 15 years. If this is the case can you point me at the page? I re read the basic magic chapter on RQCE and there's no mention to this. It says spells on self and willing targets always work (except 96-00, but it's the same for us, we just don't double roll vs enemies)

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The God Learners got it down to a fine art, but anyone can cheat, the Lunars and the Arkati are pretty pro at it. "Better" is relative, there are plenty of tools in the Sorcery box that are unavailable to other magical types. That could make otherwise tricky or impossible parts of a HeroQuest trivial.

Anyone can cheat, but cheating is viewed as godlearning and everyone hate you for it, like everyone hates arkati. Lunars don't do that kind of thing, they do another thing (rolls illumination).

"Better" may be relative, but you are giving me an abstract idea that doesnt help. The sorcery in RQG, as it is, is much weaker than in RQ3 (where it was arguably the "worst" magic system at low levels, but at medium-high level started to pick up and gain its own unique advantages, and was able to compete -to some extent-). 

Everything people say here about sorcery, you could do it on the old rules, only better. The sorcery system, RAW, for a player character, as i see it... Is *EXTREMELY* underwhelming.

Yes you can have long-duration buffs. You could before, and the spells were better/easier to master. You can't even get POW gain rolls now, unless you want to spend a round and a half (maybe 2) casting a spell. Acting once every 2 or 3 rounds, is, in my opinion and im confident my players simply boring.

Ive been playing roleplaying games for 25 years. I played AD&D, D&D3e, RQ2, RQ3, many WoD and nWoD games, Fate, Savage Worlds, SWD6, Warhammer 2e, and probably i few more i cant recall. I never, ever saw a wizard class taking 2 turns to perform a single basic (and weak) spell (especially when the counterparts can attack twice per round, or cast support magic + attack). I really can't understand why everyone is cool with it.

If i spend 3 rounds casting a spell, i expect a battle-ending, world shattering spell, not "+2d6 damage" or whatever. In old RQ3 you could cast a 18 point intensity spell in 2 rounds. That was a sight to behold (and a very rare occurence, since no intelligent enemy will let a wizard spellcast for 20+seconds... except maybe in RQG because in 2 rounds you cast a pathetic 5 point spell (and spend up to 15 MP on it to boot).

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Just because the Hrestoli use rune magics for the most part does not make them weaker or magically powerful. 

If you want to snarl and rant, go elsewhere. 

The Hrestoli aren't a church but a philosophical school.  There's nothing morally wrong on cheating on other people's heroquests. 

How do they even cheat on heroquests???

By using sorcery? Don't theists use their own, better magic there?

Also isn't heroquests cheating a godlearner thing?

They believe in god, malkion, hrestol, they gather for worship, how are they not a church?

(Again it wasn't my intention to snarl, english isn't my 1st language, im at 30% skill)

5 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Doesn't say sorcerously powerful, does it?  What I said is compatible with traditional descriptions of Loskalm. 

"one of best army in the world" and "magically powerful" directly contradict you i think, but english is not my 1st language, i might be mistaken.

Jeff's comments here on this site.   Nothing has been published. 

YGWV (and his) i guess. We tend to take published sources as cannon and go from there, but you do you 😃

EDIT: i find completely out of character for Loskalmi to cheat on heroquests to gain spells from other magic systems. If a PC of mine did that the church would most definitely excomulgate him.

13 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

 just that they do it very infrequently and for better reasons than just murder-hoboing... Feel free to make your Glorantha vary from mine!

While my PCs started as murder-hobos (we were 17 back then lol) they arent anymore for at least 15 years. One is a king, one is a self-proclaimed sorcery saint (and of course, banished from the realm) and one is... an old murder hobo (but that's a cult duty so it doesn't count). Of course there are more characters (once i GMed for 12 people... NEVER AGAIN), these are the only surviving "OGs" (well, one of them is like 2 IRL years younger and the other two spent a few IRL years death until they came back but you get my point).

"It looks like where you're going wrong is by trying to upgrade the game system while continuing the same campaign and keeping the same characters. That sounds like a recipe for a whole bunch problems, regardless of the game system."

Well, i disagree. The system is pretty similar to what im running (RQ2+3 aberration). Most new stuff we house ruled strikingly similar. My only real dislikes with the system are rolling dice to cast magic (RQ2 FTW) and the sorcery rules (which are not getting used as they are, i think my sorcerers would literally hit me with a chair if i nerfed them like that LOL)

15 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That is incorrect.  There are whole societies in which sorcery use dominates.  But the battlefield is one area in which they are weak and they make many compromises in order to survive.

"The Loskalmi army is one of the best in the world. It is professional, motivated, well equipped and magically powerful."

Glorantha: Genertela, Crucible of the Hero Wars, Genertela book, page 11 (emphasis mine). Has this been Gregged? Do you have a source for their weakness and compromises? Is there a source for the heroquesting stuff?

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What Joerg and David said.

IMHO, Sorcerers are scientists and philosophers and alchemists, and they stay up in their towers and laboratories and libraries for months on end before coming outside. And when they do, they have months of prepared spells at their disposal, stored in trinkets and staffs and amulets and such, plus some minions and sidekicks to accompany them and deal with the mundane affairs of hitting people on the head. Basically: it's Ars Magica in Glorantha. And there's a reason Ars Magica uses troupe play by default.

Hrestoli, Vadeli and the Black horse troop would like to disagree with your "philosopher and alchemist staying in their tower" trope IMHO

"From a pure game design perspective, though:  there is zero point in adding a third magic system that does what the other two do, which is to be useful in action and combat scenes. If a character wants to be able to cast spells in less than a round in order to buff themselves up or deal damage or control the forces of nature, there's already Spirit and Rune Magic for this. Sorcery (again, IMHO) is for something completely different in terms of gameplay, storytelling, and flavour."

But in glorantha there are whole societies (and quite a few of them) that mostly / only use sorcery. This doesn't fly. 

What happens if the lunar army clashes with a western army? They just win no contest? Because published low rank NPCs from every RQ incarnation have access to magic, and now it turns out westerners don't really have a practical alternative. You can argue that the wizards can enchant the knights, but the lunar priests can also enchant their soldiers, faster and spending way less magic power. Or, you know, let the soldiers get a similar boost by themselves and then use all their magic offensively or for healing (since a single wizard having to cast spells for a lot of knights cant just cast high intensity spells on everyone)

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

You aren't, really. It is fine to have a philosopher sage accompanying a group of adventurers, but a full sorcerer is not really an adventurer exploring hostile territory.

In a way, a sorcerer can be played as a magical gadgeteer. He will have and provide long-duration ensorcelled items created in advance, while being kept on a retainer. He can be a support magician who adds to the "Arming of" rites (which take about as long as casting a sorcery spell).

A sorcerer without a mundane sidekick will be out of place in most conventional adventures. On an archaeological dig in some old ruins, he may shine, though, alongside those bookworm characters.

Yeah the problem is that the main PC sorcerer is a Hrestoli magus. He has been playing the character since 1997 (not on the reg anymore). He always explored hostile territory and fought stuff, he wasnt a magical gadgeteer, sorcerers never were, not in RQ3, not in Gods of Glorantha, and not in HeroWars/HeroQuest. This is a radical departure of what gloranthan sorcery ever was.

My latest personal character was a Black Horse county mercenary. Am i supposed to not use magic again? Do i need mercenary hirelings for my mercenary character?

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

I regularly have sorcerers in my games, they always prepare beforehand. Spells like Boon of Kargan Tor are cast weeks before,

Yes. I had a group go into Snakepipe hollow with half the party being sorcerers.

Preparation. The Lhankor Mhy sorcerer was really useful at discovering important stuff, no fighting required. We didn't have any runelords.

That means they are standing to close 🙂 I've never had one interrupted, they can always make a concentration roll.

Depends how your players develop their adventurers. I don't tend to run combat based games, so fighting's never a problem. 

I regularly ran demo's of RQG for new players, Sorala (the LM sorcerer) is always a popular choice. Here's a third page for Sorala that goes with her Pregen sheet that I use for demos:

Once they see Strength + Range + Duration level must be 17 or less, it's straightforward.

Man multiquoting is beyond my forum skill :)

"I regularly have sorcerers in my games, they always prepare beforehand. Spells like Boon of Kargan Tor are cast weeks before,"

Yes, my sorcerers do that too. But they also cast spells. I cant tell a guy who has 210% evoke fire (form/set fire in RQ3) that his favorite spell is completely useless.

"Preparation. The Lhankor Mhy sorcerer was really useful at discovering important stuff, no fighting required. We didn't have any runelords."

But the sorcerer in question does fight. He is a hrestoli, and has a damage boosted greatsword. While we are at it, how are sorcerers supposed to gain POW now, since clearly spellcasting is not an option?

 "That means they are standing to close 🙂 I've never had one interrupted, they can always make a concentration roll."

Yeah, well, theres a whole country (loskalm) of sorcerers that do stand close to fight. I guess that they dont use magic besides buffs anymore... 

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

Sorcerers don't generally adventure.

I would wait until we get a pack based on the Malkioni.

There are some Jonstown Compendium supplements based in the West, but I don't think they cover sorcery particularly.

So, i am to tell my sorcerer PC that has been playing since 1997 that his magus is now useless in combat and "standard" runelords (i.e. not heroes) that he used to destroy now can wipe the floor with him?

I mean, the new sorcery system is a straight downgrade from core rq3 sorcery in every single aspect... 

He is a hrestoli btw, do knights not adventure either? Or maybe they get killed every single time they face a different type of magic user?

So, while converting my old RQ2/3 mashup house rules to RQG i got to the sorcery part, which is literally unplayable for me. 

Can someone explain how are you supposed to adventure with these rules?

They seem pretty much unplayable (and I find them overly complicated and limiting with the runes). 

Did anybody playtest these??? How is it any fun to "cast a spell" for 2+ rounds while the runelords actually do stuff, and then most likely get interrupted?

Like... I feel the best way to play a sorcerer now is "hit stuff with my damage boosted sword" (only damage boosting got nerfed to oblivion AND everyone else is actually better at hitting stuff with their swords).

I feel these rules are only good for NPCs... And even then those NPCs would be better off being shamans or theists.

/Rant

Hi there! I don't post much but i GMed rq3 from '97 to '16 or so.

I had a hardcore group of 3 players but GMed for quite a few people (i even had a couple of 12 player sessions when i merged everyone for a campaign finale).

Anyway, TLDR: i can't remember a single theist PC without access to shield. People just didnt pick those cults!!! Other gms also treated those cults as npc cults / secondary too.