icebrand

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

This entire discussion is so far away from the approach that anyone on our design team takes as to be almost painful to read. This is like a glimpse through a glass darkly into a strange Bizarro dimension.

I'm sorry but i feel compelled to quote what you wrote:

"One other thing - Greg used to say that his definition of an "internet troll" was someone who did not positively contribute to a conversation - be it by providing an answer (and when possible what that answer is based on), providing additional ideas and thoughts, or just keeping things friendly and positive. Walls of text or snark do not positively contribute to a conversation".

Edit: if you have the time i would love to hear why don't you like this, what approach do you take and why? Also what is it specifically that pains you?

41 minutes ago, JRE said:

I did not put Orlanth because I find it overpowered. You can do Tank, expensive striker (lightning and thunderbolt require lots of RPs), Control, Support and a reasonable Healing. Just not all at the same time. So you can finetune it to what you need. 

Orlanth is S tier instead. But don't fall into the lightning trap that spell is terribad; Thunderbolt has some merit because it doesnt have POW vs POW but still flight is like... 12d6 fall damage every other round? For 2-3 RP and you can use it over and over and over and over until your target dies, and then you can throw it over someones head for even more damage.

36 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

But I have a lot of players who thinks that long detailed melee sessions are quite boring. They love the investigations, the relations and the drama. They also complement each other. A group of five Yanafal Tarnils Rune Lords would probably win more battles than a group with say Vinga, Humakt, Orlanth Thu, Odayla and Issaries. But I can think about a lot of adventures where the second group is more useful, and much more fun.

I couldnt tell, my melees are fast and brutal, and if course only a fraction of the total playtime is spent in combat.

What i can tell you is that many people playing fantasy roleplay like combat. The players that don't are few and far between, and usually end up playing something else, where the archetipical story isnt "lets beat up those guys and take their stuff".

Also the group with the yanafals aint winning that unless the lightbringers terribly misplay? I mean, maybe if you force everyone to melee but with the info you giving me and similar skill levels the lightbringers win that medium difficulty.

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

 and anyone who has played with a serious power gamer knows that they'll be focussing in on Humakt/Babeester Gor with very little need for power lists to tell them where to go. 

Humakt is not a viable pick when baby Gor is a thing that exists, and ernalda> babs unless all you want to do is kill stuff with your own hands.

Source: a friend told me 🤪

7 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

This is what the shield spirit society is for! As long as your cult is ok with spirit cults you can supplement the lack of shield by serving That Shaman Who Found a Powerful Protection Spirit which grants Shield to worshipers. He requires 10% of your income and 20% of your free time. (He will replace the income and time requirements with political favors and being one of his enforcers if you are rune level) YGMV

Yeah i just put shield/absorption/reflect in the standard rune spell list. Everyone is chill now. I also buffed reflect because noone ever used it.

4 hours ago, 7Tigers said:

Hum, perhaps is it time for your players to learn
1) how to fight more effectively
2) how to solve conflict without (direct) violence
?

1) Oh they fought very effectively trust me.

2) this has absolutely nothing to do with having shield or not.

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

if a player is not able (or doesn't want) to find another way than more protection and more damage, is it a rule issue.

so maybe, a chapter / supplement dedicated to learn rpg / how a "weak" pc can participate in hard actions, what a gm can do when a (all) pc are too weak to succeed the scenario)

copyright @pookie

Why is there a weak PC without any warning anyway? *SUPRISE!!! YOUR CULT WAS A JOKE CULT!!!* It's like they want to ruin the fun.

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Note that Issaries still somewhat qualifies under this, due to Spell Trading. 🙂

(Honestly, if you’re looking to min-max your group, one Issaries worshiper is indispensible. It’s far and away the best support cult.)

Issaries is an S tier god, so they are probably buffing him anyway 🤪

4 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

I think it very much depends on the campaign and the types of scenarios and players. If combat is the ultimate arbiter for the outcome, then combat Rune Magic is essential. But I have scenarios that often uses stealth and communication. In that case can an Issaries priest be more important than the Humakti. I have have adventures where the players never used their melee skills but often Fast Talk, Intimidate, Scan, Hide or Track. We had one adventure where we needed a champion for a duel and the Humakti was a great asset. But more often they avoid combat. A lot of them are former CoC Players.

I don't think i ever seen a scenario that doesnt have combat, and i own almost all of them. The closest thing is the one with the lamia that enslaved the town i can't remember the name.

Plus, RQ is a combat based game, it's plain to see just check the depth of the combat rules compared with any other skill, or like... 4/5 spells are combat spells, etc.

I mean theres nothing wrong with roleplaying but you don't really need many rules for that, do you? And if you do there are many other games with actual mechanical depth for that.

3 hours ago, JRE said:

If all player characters have shield, most likely they will use violence as the first option, at least till they run out of RPs. Other characters and other magics open other approaches, but it requires the right player and GM approach.

No, that doesnt happen in my games sorry.

3 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Shield is a good spell but I usually run 2-3 scenarios every season. With limited availability of temples and holy days. So the players know that they may need to be careful with spending RPs.

That affects all rune magic through 

1 hour ago, svensson said:

But carry on a debate as to which cult is most über for the power gamer min/max nonsense is disingenuous too.

There never was any debate. It's ernalda by a landslide. Anything else is *literally* unplayable for the people of the powergaming persuasion, and if you disagree they send a baabester gor after you!

My players rate the cults like this:

Does it have shield? If yes its playable, otherwise it's an NPC cult.

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

Not usually.

Yelmalio blesses his worshippers with powerful abilities.

Humakt allows his worshippers to choose their gift.

 

I make them roll for both, but i'm evil.

On 5/27/2022 at 8:58 AM, jajagappa said:

Attack conditions come into play in one of two cases:  a spirit binding enchantment, or an enchantment that includes both a spell and MP matrix.

It would be used to guard places such as a temple, treasury, etc.  

If it is a spirit bound to the enchantment (e.g. a cult spirit at a temple), the attack condition signals when to attack while the target condition signals who to attack (you don't want your temple initiates affected for example).

If the enchantment includes a spell and MP, then the Link conditions come into play.  The attack condition signals it is time to attack, the link conditions trigger the associated spell or stored MP, and the target is who gets attacked.

What POW would the spell attack with, the enchanters at the time of the casting? So 18 to 20? 

15 hours ago, metcalph said:

If you really can't grasp that Yelamlion's suckiness is intentional  then perhaps your time may be better spent elsewhere?

If you cant contribute with anything but snark, maybe YOUR time may be better spent elsewhere? Like, you literally didnt read what i posted.

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

Glorantha is not a balanced world, RQ Glorantha is not a game which tries to balance all the various cults, magic systems, combat skills, weapons etc.

And theres no warning, and theres many people that seems to be proud of this. The disconnect is real...

"RUNEQUEST: The game where you may chose a character that sucks, but dont worry its intended"

And they say this unironically? Like this was good game design instead of something horrible???

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

Jason and Jeff have made it clear that the materials they are producing are based upon Greg's vision of Glorantha and if that means a cult sucks, then the cult will suck

But the cults already existed, and yelmalio already sucked, and then they nerfed it, and they changed the mechanics, which made the powerful cults more powerful and the sucky cults more sucky (and everyone knows yelmalio isnt the only one in this situation).

So in RQ2 yelmalio is subpar. But not by a landslide! In RQ3 yelmalio is plain bad. In RQG you need to not know how to play to actually pick it as a serious option. People here seem to play them "ironically" or something, and i sure they have plenty fun, but i have actual players complaining that this didnt happen in other games and that their god is way worse than everyone elses and... They are right. Since i already know the official position is "sucks to be you" i fixed it myself and everyone is happy and yelmalio is a top shelf cult now.

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

But anyone who has looked at Sun County or Tales of the SandHeart Militia will know that there is a huge amount of roleplaying fun to be had with this cult and a lot of that comes from the fact that it's not a balanced cult.

We have tons of fun at roleplaying, but the campaign is serious and not fit for joke characters, at least not mechanics-wise. Encounters are challenging and skill at playing the game + luck determine if you succeed or die (you know, like RAW). Since the players are new to runequest their "playing the game" skill isnt very high, and using a subpar choice is not viable.

Again, theres actual challenging enemies and i dont cheat; many people have this view of runequest where the sub-part cults are wacky and funny and whatever, but if you play RAW that ends up with your character either being a drag to the group, or (the better outcome) receiving a ticket to the court of daka fal like... really early.

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

If you don't like that, that's fine YGWV and you can give Yelmalio the power up that suits you and I don't think anybody is going to complain. But if you want to be constructive, then write up your version of Yelmalio with associated myths and then he won't be sucky for you or anyone else who doesn't want him to suck.

Yes, thats what i did. No need to write up anything, i just put Shield/Absorption/Reflect as standard rune magic and any cult can learn any spirit magic (except prohibited ofc); the starting spells are the ones you pick for character creation, and are half price to learn after. This fixed yelmalio and everyone else that needed fixing. The broken, overpowered, and good cults remain the same (a smidge better maybe, but those cults already have almost all spirit magic from allies and/or their extensive list), and the crappy ones get buffed and feel real good to play.

1 hour ago, Martin Dick said:

I think this is a much more constructive issue and I agree that it's important in an unbalanced game, for it to be clear what you are getting in to when you choose a cult for your character. I just read the Yelmalio cult in the preview copy and it wouldn't be clear to a new player that it doesn't really rank up there with the other warrior cults.

YES.

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Probably because they are small minority of the actual cult. There are plenty of cults that offer spells or abilities of marginal utility to certain communities. Humakt's undead fighting abilities are not important in areas without a lot of undead, and Sense Chaos is not terribly useful in most civilised lands.

Are you really gonna compare those kickass abilties with "you can shoot from your horse, but also you dont have a horse, and you can't ride either"???

I mean, all these threads are the same...

"X stuff is underwhelming!"

"Well, yeah, thats because the cult sucks"*

... I think people want cults that "suck" to suck less, not a reassurance that yes, the war cult for soldiers has no magic for soldiers, and the mouted troops have no magic for archery, or horses, or knows how to ride, and actually never mind, apparently the cult that teaches kuschile and speak with horses doesnt even have horses (seriously?).

*By suck i mean it sucks. Lore aside, if you compare yelmalio with... Mostly anyone... It is a poor cult that offers nothing to the adventurer concept of a phalange trooper, or soldier, or whatever you want to play (unless you want to play "guy thats a soldier but has a subpar cult so deal with it".

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I never said there was anything wrong with it. Only that it wouldn't happen in D&D.

No, it wouldnt happen in DnD, since theres no DI and Rurik would have been dead like 2 adventures ago?

Also i would argue that in DnD terms Rurik would have been rolling death saves and the trollkin hit him then, this can and does happen in DND!

It's like people parrot this "crit by a trollkin" part while forgetting the rest.

11 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The infamous Ruirik Runespear vs. Trollkin fight, where a Runelord gets taken out by a random mook, is something that won't happen in D&D to  14th level Paladin facing a 1 hit die goblin. Yes, statistically it could happen in D&D, but in order to do so the Paladin would have to miss the goblin a couple of dozen times while the goblin slowly whittles down the Paladin's hit point, and then stand there for the killing blow, despite seeing how the fight had been going. Statically speaking, the D&D Paladin has a much greater chance of getting struct by Lightning. 

I'm sorry but ruriks death is fine and theres nothing wrong with it, and you can bet your RPG collection he would have died in D&D too.

You see, Rurik wansnt "killed by a lucky trollkin".

"When faced by a priestess of Kyger Litor, in contrast, Rurik led his friends into an ambush by trolls hidden by Invisibility. Half the party was slaughtered and the 
other half were beggared by the ransom that the trolls demanded.

Finally, on a quest to regain Power lost in a previous call for Divine Intervention, deep in the Pavis ruin known as the Devil’s Playground, Rurik and a long-time rival Johnathan Trollsbane led the party into another ambush; this time of well-prepared trollkin. One of the enemy unleashed a Shade that drove Rurik’s spirit from his body. Yelmalio heard his prayers and sent it back. 
Before he could rise a lucky trollkin had plunged a spear into his leg. The shock was too much, and Rurik died again. This time, though, he didn’t have the Power to plead to Yelmalio again."

So the guy got half his party killed, then DI, then killed by shade, then DI, then killed by trollkin. Theres nothing wrong with it, it's a lot of fck ups one after another, and a good death.

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

You should go around insulting any horse you see.

I take it back, now i want a nomad with permanent speak to horses hahhaha

3 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I seem to recall an Impala Yelmalion statted out in The Pegasus Plateau who got Speak With Impala rather than Speak With Horse from Yelmalio

If im playing a beast nomad and i get "speak with horses" gift, then the GM and me are gonna have words (though burning down their house is also an option)

16 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Under normal circumstances, Kuschile Archery seems like a weak-ass skill that makes no sense for your usual adventurers.  But Yelmalio is no ordinary cult.  10% of his initiates have a cult weapon skill of 90% which includes the bow.  So their starting best archers are 90% bow and 5% ride.  Normally They get Kuschile Archery at a base of 25% which is a huge improvement.

Instead of sucking at 5% archery every time they are on horseback, 25% of their arrows are at 90%.  So what if Kuschile Archery is a lousy skill to improve compared to ride?  All that matters to the Yelmalions, is that from fresh troops, they can muster half-decent mounted archers.  

Please tell me this is sacarsm?

"Compared to other cults, this one sucks... But wait!!! We have thought of a new way to make them suck even more!!!"

2 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

My problem with this skill is that in real life, it was developed and practiced by mounted nomads and not farmers. It is just backwards as described in RQ.

If you want that, just let them shoot arrows with kuschile skill instead of bow. Kuschile isnt limited by ride, but cant be used on foot (or most likely, can be used at 1/2%).

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And training up your Kuschile skill is a poor use of a PC's time and effort.  Instead of training your Kuschile archery up from 25%, why not train up your Ride skill?  It does start lower, but it's way more useful.  And you save a geas.  Yelmalio has a lot of bothersome geases, including "Complete Celibacy".  Avoiding them is a good thing.

I use it as a gift & geas. You get it, you get a geas, you are no longer limited by your ride skill, thats it!

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Agreed!

And, mechanically, I haven't seen a clear explanation of how it works. Are you supposed to roll Kuschile for every attempt at an attack, and if you succeed, you then roll your normal attack? What happens if you fail or fumble?

Is it for a whole battle? Is it for each arrow or round or...???

And, as you wrote, it seems much more logical to just up your Ride and Bow... or, ride into range, stop, let off a few arrows. and then ride off again.

For a Geas, I'd expect an ability to fire at your normal Bow skill.

Mechanically, Kuschile is awesome for people with high (120%+) bow skill that didnt develop ride all along. Even if they check ride every single time, they are checking bow too you know? then kuschile can be easily brought to 95% i guess? I hate how it works because it adds an extra roll, so i made it a gift and you just shoot ignoring your ride skill.

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

At first glance it does seem particularly pointless. Why raise your Kuschile Archery skill, instead of raising your Ride skill?

However, it gives you a chance of improving your chance. Even if you only get the "free" 25% chance, then that's an immediate benefit.

Lets say you have 25% Ride and 50% Bow. A 25% KA skill immediately raises your Bow chance, on average, to 31.25% chance. You have a one-in-four chance of using your full 50% skill and a three-in-four chance of being limited by your 25% ride.

Now if by experience you raise your KA to 30%, your Ride to 30%, and your Bow to 55%. You now have, on average, a chance to hit of 37.5%.

And if you then only manage to raise one skill, the KA, by 5% due to experience, your chance goes up to 38.75%. So just having that skill sitting there, increasing through experience, is better for your chance to hit than just Ride and Bow skill. It's an additional skill increase roll, which is free, so it increases your chance of increasing your chance.

Is it worth it? From a game system point of view I still don't think so. It's an additional complexity, and an additional die roll to make. It's a bit like an augment really, but one that is unlimited in its utility and is in addition to augments.

YES.

19 hours ago, svensson said:

Rapiers are too long and require an entirely different set of footwork to be used in a shield press.

Xiphos ['xiphoi'?] are first and foremost a stabbing shortsword. 

https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4088249

Bronze age rapiers (+/-60cm) are not much longer than a xiphos (40-60cm) according to Wikipedia!

Was there really an entirely different set of footwork? Do we even have combat manuals from back then???

10 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Are we talking Sun County in Prax? 

Yes, sun county in prax!!!

23 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The point is that Yelmalio's weapons are the spear and pike, large shield, and the bow or javelin. His followers might be familiar with other weapons, but he doesn't particularly mind or care.

So, yelmalios have kuschile archers (what armor do these usually use?) and sarissa+large shield hoplites with greaves, full helm and maybe cuirass if they can afford, am i correct?

Where is the spear used? And the Javelins? Do they have light infantry or skirmishers? What armor do they usually wear? Or are they for adventurers?

Last, the sidearm question... I imagine when the pike breaks a half can be used as long spear? Is this an acceptable ruling? Maybe this is the secondary weapon and they dont have to rely on a shortsword or dagger they get no training into?

Just now, Eff said:

 Something that can poke as its primary method of use is pretty handy, and you can make a more triangular blade and say it's a really stretchy Law Rune if you want to introduce meaningful symbolic overtones. 

Rapier it is!

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

unclear if English is your first language, as always, but that does not mean "member of a phalanx" in English, it means "antisemitic Catholic fascist", just as "fascist" is not a person who wields fasces

Yelmalions are antisystem chaotic falx wielders?????!?! 😂😂😂🥳

So, what's the sidearm for yelmalio cultists?

Real life macedonians (who also used sarissa and shield) used the xiphos, a shortsword. Do yelmalians also use those?

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Killing Harrek once is not a problem as he is known to have at least one backdoor out of Hell, regardless of what happens to his mortal shell and its fluffy wrapping.

Thats why Jon Pol Joni (which could have fought him at least to a standstill) chose to break his spirit in a guitar battle. Now Harrek is grinding his bear-powered banjo skill in pamaltela, bidding the time for his revenge.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Think of them as recurring nigh-indestructible villains who may happen to be allied to your side at times. Like Yoda and Obi-Wan, Gandalf and Sauron, Merlin and Skiros, or Elric/Corum/Jerry.

If they happen to appear in my campaign they are runelord+priest of their respective god, AND shaman, with 21 all stats, 185% combat skills (90 in the rest of their cult skills) and 21 rune points with the appropriate spirits and magic ítems (which are the spirits and magic ítems can attain if they want to).

Of course they can resurrect (your PC can too) and have a lot of followers, and very powerful, rune level ones (your PC can too). But those dudes don't appear in my campaign unless YOU want to go beat them up, and dont have anything PCs cant have. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Your character is similar to the trollkin facing of Rune Lord Rurik.

Nah, my players are the heroes of the setting. If the hero wars ever happen, it's THEIR thing. I love glorantha but seriously idgaf about canon.

The Big names exist and have stats and you can kill them if you ever get powerful enough, but what they do happens in the background and you only find out about it if you ask, now GET OUT OF TOWN AND GO ADVENTURE.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Maybe collect enough plot armor for your character to get there. Plot armor = Heroquest gifts/powers (

My heroquests give benefits to the community, and personal gains are límited (no more powerful than a humakt/yelmalio gift) and/or a metagame reward (a die re-roll, or an xp bonus).

I don't have super powers, if you want super powers im also running a BASH campaign 😁

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Jon Pol Joni reads like the "John dies at the End" chapters written from Johns perspective in the sequels

Thanks lol! Jon Pol Joni is *amazing* lol 

16 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

First demi-god, then god. Baby steps. 🙂

Yeah but then Jon Pol Joni challenged him to a duel, and everything changed.

Everyone was there, bisons and llamas and sables and impalas and morocanth, and all kinds of other peoples, from baboons to men and a half, harreks pirates and even some chaos folk.

The musical battle blasted the land, moved the block, woke up the devil and enthralled everyone who happened by.

Harrek really gave it all, but his bear-powered banjo was no match for the six-string of storms;  even his most trusted ally, Gunda, eventually rooted for Pol Joni, and after this religious reveal, she renounced humakt and joined donandar.

Shamed and broken, the white bear picked up his pirates and sailed to pamaltela, never to be seen or heard of again.

THE END.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

While I have my issues with Harrek, even he didn't just randomly kill his god during initiation - he was an accomplished gladiator and dart-warrior, and had killed the Red Emperor,

Lol... "He didnt kill a god in his initiation, he already killed another god before" like... REALLY? Thats your compelling argument? CMON DUDE...

My Glorantha Will Vary. ID rather not have Conans and Goku son running around with plot armor, TYVM.

So, imagine i'm at your RuneQuest Game and Harrek appears and my adventurer calls him out, saying he's full of it and making stuff up.

Now Harrek wants to kill me, what are you gonna do? Because we both know he has no stats and if you give him stats then im right and he's lying, because You can't kill gods (PLURAL) with RQ stats.