Grievous

On 1/31/2024 at 2:24 AM, Jeff said:

The Sartarites do the same. Traditionally, new adults in Orlanthi cultures go through a period of cult training or apprenticeship, often called the “Ordeal Years”. The newly initiated young men (which include those women chosen by Vinga) are brought to Orlanth Adventurous and given weapons, a cloak, and a broad hat. This is sometimes done by the clan, more often by the tribe; in some cities, the young men live in the temple or guild house; in other traditional clans, they live in the wilderness. For the next two years, they learn to fight alone and as part of the militia. They raid and hunt, learn to run long distances, how to climb cliffs, and other physical training. Most importantly, they learn the songs and dances of the Orlanthi gods and heroes, how to speak with spirits, and of sex, the bonds of friendship, and the duties of men.

Now during the Lunar Occupation of places like Boldhome, New Pavis, or the other Sartarite cities, this had to be more circumspect. Young men were often sent to relatives in the countryside to learn how to be Orlanthi - for example, many went to Garhound in Pavis County, where they were under the protection of the clan chieftain. In Boldhome, many had kin among the tribes.

That is very cool. I wonder how that worked for tribes that were more properly complying with the Lunars and/or had more Lunarized kings during the Occupation. The Ordeal group could become rebels (that would no doubt continue luring young men into their midst), but if that didn't happen, how might that look? The tribe would have to create an alternative training group though, but with Orlanth out of the question, what form would they take?  

The Doors - When The Music's Over (Live At The Bowl '68)

This was my immediate instinctual thought as an answer to this!

I mean, Jim Morrison, but also don't forget that it's a whole band... 

8 hours ago, svensson said:

Still, the Dara Happans are the cultural basis of the Empire and they are where most of the stereotypes are derived from The Dara Happans are a different people than the Heortlings /Hendriki of Sartar, both physically and culturally. They are blonde-haired [black and auburn are also common], brown-eyed, and a bit darker in skin tone where Sartarites are paler of skin, often freckled, and darker of hair [black/brown/red] with blue or green eyes. Culturally, Dara Happans are more Persian /Roman /Byzantine to the Sartarites' Celtic /Saxon /Scandinavian, to use Terra analogies. HOWEVER, a great deal of crossover has happened in Time began. A blonde Sartarite or blue-eyed Dara Happan is nothing unusual at all and isn't even worthy of comment unless you're specifically looking to insult someone's parentage.

That's actually a little wrong according to the info from the Guide. The Dara Happans as Babylonian/Sumerian/Persian and Orlanthi as north European are old tropes that don't really hold. The Pelorians are somewhat lighter skinned with brown/blue eyes. The Orlanthi add in more hair and eye color variety and slightly darker skin basically - however with blondes rare and blue eyes apparently not present much at all.

I think the point re: OP is that while there is this blonde and lighter skin tone trend in the Pelorians, it's not a huge difference and not entirely unknown in Dragon Pass, so there isn't a readily apparent, blatantly obvious distinction between the two ethnic types so that isn't going to be the primary factor of directed prejudice. Cultic affiliation would be that (consider that many within your kin group would have joined the Seven Mothers cult as well). Language too, certainly (which is relevant to the question re: Tarshites). That said, I think there is room for discrimination on these lines (if you want to introduce that theme to your game) towards the blonde, blue eyed Pelorian types which do stand out and might be seen as representative of the Pelorian ruling class. 

8 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Kind of expanding on my heroquesting answer, as I understand it most heroquests are like putting on a play, but when you're done parts of the story you were telling remain as real things. Like say I heroquest King Arthur getting Excalibur - I wouldn't actually go back in time to some mythical England and pull Excalibur out of the lake, I'd go to a nearby lake that represents the one from the story and get a normal sword out of it. When the quest is over, the sword I got has been changed into something like Excalibur, I haven't gotten Excalibur itself.

That's very well put.

I would also very much like to point out how much like roleplaying it is, so it opens into a meta-narrative tool (in fact, both in fiction as the experimental heroquesting of heroes and out of fiction as a narrative element that matches the act that's responsible for its creation).

15 hours ago, soltakss said:

Jar-Eel would not have been born to another House in the same way.

She is both the result of a breeding programme, starting with Hon-Eel, and an Inspiration of Moonson.

Isn't she also the Red Emperor's daughter? I always assumed that she was. That carries with it a great deal of power.

 

Hmm. The term breeding program gets thrown around a lot in these discussions around Jar-eel and I appreciate the Dune vibes, but what do we know about the components of this breeding scheme? I mean, the obvious answer is to pack as much of Red Emperor lineages into the family tree, but that isn't much of a program as standard operating procedure?

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are at least two Red Emperors in her lineage (Hon-eel's dad (Magnificus?), and her own, Ignifer(?)), but quite likely more.

TakenEgi is Hon-eel's father and Jar-eel's is Reclusus. 

As I'm made of money, I just ordered the premium. Great stuff!

My sense of it is that there was a mistake in the initial files (which was noted in the errate/errors threads at the time), which named Korlmhy as the king (making S:KoH out of wonk). When this was noted, I think the situation was remedied in a way that it can be interpreted in multiple ways (the myriad ways that would make sense to me which I had some difficulty parsing, hence my post necroing the thread) to accommodate a variety of potential campaign solutions. Whether that was a good remedy is something we can debate once we settle the Elmal-Yelmalio discussion. 😄 Anyway, that's my speculation.

I think some folks may still have the old uncorrected pdf's floating around (I do actually, but the printed versions seem fine), which may add to the confusion around the issue.

Ok, but none of these theories or discussion seem to really account for Kangharl and Korlmhy being two different people, but I guess we can assume Kangharl precedes Korlmhy as tribal king and general troublemaker. Of course, that doesn't jive at all with S:KoH and with the idea of keeping that at least a little bit canonical I'm still stumped on how to incorporate Korlmhy so that the notes and lineage charts make sense. 🤷‍♂️ Anyway thanks for your musings on the subject!

Ok, so in describing Leika's ascension on FB (in July) Jeff references the situation with the two tribal kings of Colymar from 1615-1625. 

So, Korlmhy overthrows Leika with Lunar military aid. Kangharl is a lunar hostage. Of course, in S:KoH it seems Kangharl was this Korlmhy, so to speak.

I've tried to wrack my brain and resolve what all this points at, but I just don't get it. Your insight or speculation would be appreciated.

15 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I guess the Malani tribe must keep several Humakti rune lords. But they are the exception, not the rule.

They are probably War Clans and likely rent out their Humakti as mercenaries too, though. So the clans make their "investments" work for them. 

On 7/2/2021 at 3:33 AM, John Biles said:

The Lunar Empire was Big and Rich and they were not.

This no doubt lead to some cultural influence in the area closest to Tarsh and facilitated the whole Yelmalio cult rising thing.

The current view seems to have Sartar looking pretty rich, however. Certainly not an empire, though. So, maybe not for the country bumpkins (which are not necessarily the most likely to pick up Lunar/Yelmic influence either), but there is wealth to be had. This could suggest that this foreign trade blossomed among those who maybe felt left out.

Also, the Dinacoli spring to mind. Trying to square the circle about everything that's been said about them in the past is a bit difficult, so my mind is still trying to figure them out in relation to everything else (and within the Yelmalio/Elmal complex). If Tarsh is the conduit for the Yelmic current (which makes sense), then they'd (and/or perhaps parts of them that moved south - I think the Lorthing have at some point been described thus, I believe) also possibly fit in with this trend. Maybe a development that occurred after the dreadful Brangbane business. They did join Sartar only after Grizzly Peak though (which is where Monrogh died). Later on, they're known to be rich as well, so there's that. I dunno, just riffing now!

How about the somewhat unclear Yelmic influence which spread before the whole Yelmalion affair/crisis? I seem to recall that had something to do with plowing, but I've wondered about whether this was tied into some form of Yelmic worship as well.

I love, love, loooove this visualization of Glorantha, esp. the Vingkotlings which simply blow me away. Outstanding. 

12 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

 (like why would Caladralanders need to "heat their soil", it's a subtropic humid coastal mountain terrain).

They like it hot. 

On 11/10/2020 at 9:17 PM, Grievous said:

I know, I am a baneful freerider, but I just want to appreciate this product in my way. 

And now I can. Ordered.  

I think it's interesting that we used to have lots of boxed sets (back when I got into the hobby anyway) and then they totally went out of fashion, but they've been creeping back. I don't really have a strong preference, but I guess a box is a nice thing to put stuff in (I mean that's literally what boxes are for beside all the feline functionality) that wouldn't really work that well as add-ons with books. 

43 minutes ago, g33k said:

Where stands the concept of the ruling "ring" nowadays?

How does it relate to the "Thane?"

 

I would think that anyone who gets elected into the ring also becomes a thane, or probably in most cases already was one. 

Though that said the current description kind of leaves it open if priests for example are thanes, or just "effectively Thanes" (ie. similarly supported), ie. whether a Thane is a purely martial role or not (yes, it was originally that, but does is still retain that role has it become a more general noble rank).

Edit - Hmm, I guess on a second reading of Jeff's excerpts, priests are not necessarily thanes (unless they are martial priests), so there is an idea of a more "noble" rank that's larger in scope than thane. I wonder if this is then restricted to thanes and priests, or if it is a larger group. Then again, most every important person would probably be a priest, if not a thane. Then I guess in some cases we'd have children of chieftains/kings to consider too, but I guess their "nobility" sort of emanates from that of their parent(s).

I also assume that means weaponthane as a term is out, superceded by "vanilla" thane.

We discussed that greave thing on Facebook briefly. I and a few others noted that when using a shield to fight, you really only need the left leg covered (and it better be covered as it is a major target IME). That's valid while still using the shield - the situation might change once you lose the shield (in which case at least I would prefer to switch to a right leg forward stance and then armor on both legs would be really nice). But yeah, greaves on only the left leg were also definitely also a thing historically, but their utility can be attested to even today by anyone who's done any fighting with shields.

Jeff pointed out though that she had the greave on one leg only because she ran out of time while looting, so there's that. 

Oh wow, had missed Heler in Facebook. Very cool. 

This book is... well, it's going to go into RPG history/hall of fame. 

Hmm, I've also thought about how logical it would be for there to be Western styles of martial arts. It really makes sense that certain ways of moving and acting with the human body would be more attuned to the ways of Malkion, and that most humans move in ways that are out of sync with this original, more powerful way of moving (also probably doing harm to themselves in a sort of karmic or even just health based manner). But someone trained in the right arts... could put themselves in sync with these true principles and gain martial power, much like a sorcerer does with their mind. I can really imagine the Western martial arts master show off the techniques: "Once aligned with the True Principles, there can be no defense!" SMACK. Just something that I've thought about and see making sense.

One thing I would not like to see though is that every corner of Glorantha should have their own totally developed martial arts in the vein of something like we see in the eastern arts. Yes, every place will have a martial tradition, but it's not always going to look like kungfu. Now, heh, I fully understand I just suggested putting something like that in the West myself, but ahhh that just makes sense to me as outlined above.

4 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

The minimalist account goes like this:

Until King of Sartar was published, nobody had ever heard of "Elmal." We knew Yelmalio was worshipped at Sun Dome Temples in Dragon Pass, Prax and South Peloria. We knew most about the Sun Dome Temple in Prax, because of Cults of Prax, the Pavis boxed set and Sun County.

King of Sartar gave us an account of how, circa 50-70 years ago, Monrogh changed the Sartarite Orlanthi cult of Elmal into the Sun Dome Temple's cult of Yelmalio. Up until a couple of generations ago, Elmal was worshipped in Sartar, but "today" (1620s) he isn't. (Some excitable people thought this meant "Yelmalio" hadn't previously existed; they were generally ignored, not least because we can all read Sun County)

King of Dragon Pass was set a century or more before that event, portraying a pre-Sartarite Orlanthi tribal society including shrines and temples to Elmal. There's nothing inconsistent there. None of the transformative changes wrought by Sartar (and his heirs) when (and after) he founded his kingdom are included in that game, by definition.

For whatever reason, HeroQuest authors wrote up an extant cult of Elmal as if it was still relevant to Sartarite tribes. I really don't know why.

RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha makes it clear that the cult worshipped at Sun Dome Temples is that of Yelmalio, everyone in Glorantha realises this is the same god as the Elmal worshipped by a few backwoods Orlanthi, and a separate cult writeup for Elmal would make about as much sense as one for Harst or Spare Grain. Start from the Big YO, strip out the bits you don't need, and add local colour, the same way you would if you were creating any other minor regional subcult. The cult writeups always show you the fullest flowering of a religion; you prune it back to get to the limited backwoods shrine-cult.

Thanks, I think that's a useful historical summary for us who weren't around to see it all unfold. There's two kinds of confusion around this whole issue: the "bad kind" and the "good kind". The bad confusion is basically angry people (men?) on the Internet. The what happened when and "why did they do this to me" ties into it, so your summary is good relief for this ailment. The good confusion is the web and weave of the mythology; Elmal, Yelmalio, Cold Suns... what's Elmal doing in Six Ages, Monrogh, etc. it's good confusion because it is interesting for those who enjoy deep dives into the setting. Though basically good, it can still be frustrating because it is so damned impenetrable at times.

36 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Telmori due to the fact that Kallyr is heir to Sartar.

For the Culbrea, one of her key supporters is Orngerin who hails from that tribe and has many connections there.

As for the Cinsina, less clear given their opposition to the Telmori (and dislike of the Culbrea).  

Orngerin's clan is in the Cinsina (since 1613), though. Of course, this might actually change, too.  

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I wonder whether this covers the Dinacoli or the Aldachuri and their (presumably tribal) Yelmalio worship, or just the Quivini.

 

This (and also the Elmali Dolutha that are descended from them) is really the only thing still nagging me in this paradigm, but aside from not being able to square that circle, I'm liking what I'm seeing!

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Oooh boy, watch out, this is a hotly debated topic.

Yeah, but this core question really shouldn't be... that's my controversial opinion anyway!

47 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

• Dragon Pass and Nomad Gods update/reissue confirmed.

omg omg (I just hope we won't be doing away with hexes)