Grievous

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

the subtle spiritual pollution of illumination and it's gibbering mad doctrine of blithely accepting contradictions

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

is..... errr... is Nick Brooke ok? 😆😅

We Are All Us.

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Supposedly the Solars had their own pre-existing concept of Illumination.

I'm not sure (and have been wondering, actually) whether Dayzatar has Illuminate associations. I do get a little bit of that vibe.

Then there's all the bits that went into Sedenya that were around in some form. Rashorana certainly, in her various forms, and Zaytenera seems Illuminated.

I've kinda been of the opinion that there were bits and pieces of Illumination in and around the Solar system, but it just got a lot more formalized (and open, perhaps being restricted to closed or fringe cults before) with Nysalor.

As an aside, I think there's some very odd views into Illumination existing on the forums (and I guess thus the readership of Glorantha). Not that I am an official holder of the truth here (or anywhere!), but I think most of the strange viewpoints stem from a a lack of understanding of the things that quite clearly seem to have inspired Greg regarding Illumination. Obviously, it is not just any one thing ported out of RL into Glorantha), but the inspirations don't seem all that cryptic and I actually think it's a pretty neat way of gamifying enlightenment traditions. I think just branding it as a form of mental disorder (psychopathy) or a total lack of morality is missing the mark pretty radically, but I guess that response to it is somewhat indicative of how scary it must sometimes look to some of the more conservative minded folk in Glorantha as well...

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Can sufficiently heroic people create their own kind of Illumination outside of the traditional schools?

And you probably don't even need to be heroic to do it.

7 team members, focus on getting in AND out.. well, hmm, it has some resonance with the LBQ, too.

9 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I guess people accept this premise with Harrek, since he's already presented as a kind of "chaotic neutral" (in DnD terms) kind of figure, whereas perhaps people expected more of a classically "virtuous" heroism from Argrath, which is why there's more of a tendency to want to judge Argrath my modern moral sensibilities, but not Harrek.

I think Harrek's more chaotic evil than chaotic neutral, really.

31 minutes ago, Glorion said:

And Lincoln's original was pretty powerful too.

We can't all be Americans! Thanks for the pointer.

22 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Or maybe names like "Yelm" and "Elmal" are simply being translated into their more recognizable modern forms for our benefit to keep things accessible to new players or people who only know Glorantha from King of Dragon Pass, which would also explain why Orlanth isn't being addressed as "Umatum" or some other Peloricized name you'd expect Dara Happan refugees to be referring to him by.

Sure, names are names though, and the point is that there is a face behind the name..

* * *

On further contemplating the Red Goddess in regards to Yelm, I did some digging to give fuel to my contemplation as I'm still trying to unfurl the complexities of her role and better get a grip on her position in the Solar mythos.

The Red Goddess, as Verithurusa, helped kill Yelm. That's pretty damning, I guess.
Under Lesilla, the Mernitans who venerated her became rebellious. In response, the Emperor Lukarius killed her and made slaves of the people of Mernita. 
As Gerra, she snuck into the Sky Dome, was later mistreated by the Emperor and blamed for the world's troubles, was staked and then the Sky Dome was shattered.
Her current form, Natha, is the Goddess' Shadow Portion. Considering Solar associations with Kazkurtum, this doesn't sound like much of a good thing either.

So, she's not exactly a beneficent figure in Solar myth. This isn't a reason for her not to have a place at all of course, but the myths would imply that she's more likely to be a recipient of propitiatory worship and sacrifice. Certainly she has a place in the culture, but to me she seems often to be the scapegoat, the demon, at best a wrathful protector, etc. 

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Oh, I love Leika's speech. Thank you ever so much for sharing!

Agreed. Powerful stuff!

16 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm reading the Fortunate Succession now, and this raised a question regarding Yelm and Nysalor: isn't there something about the Sun God not being Yelm Proper before the Sunstop or something? So technically the decision to create Nysalor would have predated the Dara Happan perception, at least, that Yelm was "back". (The sun gods prior to this appear to have been called Antirius and Kargzant, which, altough we usually think of them as Lightfore deities, seem to have served as the sun disk gods post-Dawn until the Sunstop as well). 

In regards to this theory, I think one new piece of the puzzle is that Yelm certainly exists in Six Ages. So, either this knowledge of Yelm was lost until it was restored within Time, or..... somebody did some God Learner level tweaking of the Godtime... 

On 6/29/2020 at 6:12 PM, JanPospisil said:

Some gestures I invented for Six Ages:

[SNIP]

Thanks for sharing this! Very cool.

Also, just to give @Jan Pospisil some very well deserved credit for that art, am I the only time who is dying to see a Gloranthan comic in this art style? I can't think of a better artist for the job. Here's hoping you'll remain a part of the Gloranthan pantheon of artists for a long time!

On 6/6/2020 at 1:55 AM, John Biles said:

The Dara Happans have a long history of basically throwing Yelm down the stairs and obeying invaders or basically diluting Yelm worship down to nothing.  Like supporting creating Nysalor when you already *have a sun god*.  

 

I don't know, that makes a lot of sense to me, the way I see it. Yelm's cult is very exclusive, while Nysalor was for everyone (even if Illumination remained rare, his charity and deeds were felt by all, and even the chance of Illumination really is open for all). So, that tweak to the culture doesn't feel like much of a bump.
 

On 6/14/2020 at 10:53 AM, Jeff said:

People on these lists massively overstate the tension between Yelm Imperator and the Red Goddess. Pretty much every member of the Yelm Imperator subcult IS an initiate of the Red Goddess and an Illuminate, and the Red Emperor is the head of the cult. Let the implications of that sink in for a moment.

Yelm Imperator is a faction WITHIN the Lunar religion, and any tension is going to be within the Lunar religion - with entities like Great Sister or with the White Moon (which is persecuted). But the illuminated Yelm Imperator cult represents the establishment of the Lunar Empire - it defines the mainstream. 

I can definitely accept that as the truth, but I do have a little trouble wrapping my head around it. I do wonder what's the Red Goddess to the Yelmites? Is there a need she fulfills or a mystery that she unveils that was previously unaccessible? I guess culturally she's a little like the common folk's Illuminate like I posit Nysalor to be above, but there is something about the co-existence of the two cults that doesn't just immediately grok in perfection (which, I guess, leads many to believe there must be friction).

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

My position is that Occlusion isn't a "thing" - "occluded" is the tag you put on other Illuminates that you disapprove of.

In the sense that Occlusion is just a word and that it can sometimes be used arbitrarily to describe a very complex and hard-to-define phenomenon, you can argue it doesn't exist or is too simplistic a term. Put another way, I don't think there is an "Occluded" modifier you can put on your "Illuminated" classification on your character sheet, for example.

But in the sense that for some Illumination does lead to the kind of "freedom that psychopaths" enjoy that @EricW described earlier, I think we can speak of an Occlusion that does mean something practical and unwanted. Essentially, I think this is exactly what you mention earlier as well: that the temptation to become self-serving is there. I would argue that a truly self-serving Illuminate is likely Occluded. Illumination sees the One and Many become intertwined. The logical development here is empathy and benevolence, not avarice and expedience, nor psychopathy. Yet, we know that sometimes occurs, and that failure of schooling/development can warrant a term of its own.

Whether the system of Examiners then genuinely seeks out the misguided to appropriately label them, or uses it to further its own political purposes is a separate issue. Certainly the Examiners can move the goal posts around according to their own whims or political needs, but when that is happening it implies a certain level of corruption already in the system and a thus a failure of the Examiners at their own task. I think the question and concerns implied by "who watches the watchers?" is apt here. 

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

The big issue is that it replaces an established moral system, that is at the very least proven to be able to support a society no matter how unfair it might be, with whatever you yourself decide on. The risk to be self-serving is obvious, as with Argrath, who decides that nothing in the universe matters except his quest for vengeance..

Yeah, there is that and that's why a recently Illuminated mind might benefit from a little guidance so it doesn't descend into nihilism/Occlusion. I think this might be a key difference between early Nysalorean Riddle-based Illumination and latter Sedenyan Sevened Illumination. You're not just gifted/cursed with the Illuminated mindset and left to your own devices, but you're actually schooled in it. Of course, the system of Examiners, ostensible set to ensure a non-Occluded development, can also certainly became (as alluded to earlier in this thread) an Orwellian tool of societal control, where only state-approved Illuminates are allowed to prosper. 

15 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree. One of the cores of Illumination is the realization that it's up to you whether to follow rules, laws and traditions, and that they're artificial and arbitrary. 

Yeah, exactly. Illumination doesn't make you a hero or a villain (and how boring it would be, if it did). It's what you do after which decides that. It can be a great impulse for good, and I would argue that in a world where tradition and hidebound culture is at the root of much bad behaviour it indeed mostly is that, but certainly it can also lead to bad things. Frex. from the Illuminated viewpoint, it is the non-Illuminate who is the slave, but whether that realization leads one to a benevolent will to liberate all beings, or to a crazy realization that as slaves their lives matter not at all, is up to the individual... and one can slip from heroism to villainy (and back again) along their path, too, and not just live in either extreme like a caricature. Of course, it is precisely the un-Illuminated mindset which would tend to believe that you're all set, unchanging and unredeemable... 

Come on, plowing is sex (and definitely not non-consentual, it's not like Broolings sprout out of the earth or anything*): reproductive, fertile, wholesome, sweaty.

* That would make a decent adventure hook, though.

10 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Then there is the flipside issue of illumination as a form of state control.  Illumination as enslavement.  This effect is literally Orwellian.  When you are trained to accept contradictions, the possibility of reason collapses, and the people who actually know the truth use a maze of falsehoods to hide it as a means of keeping power to themselves.  This point is extremely relevant to the use of disinformation on the Internet as a form of "statecraft/propaganda" atm too.

Except, well, that's prettty much the opposite of what Illumination is about. You could argue that a system of state-supported Examiners that approve one Illuminate over the other is an Orwellian apparatus of control, and I'd prolly agree that it definitely has that possibility as a potential problem, but Illumination itself is an increase of freedom. 

On 6/8/2020 at 8:58 AM, John Biles said:

Argath vs Nysalor is a battle where neither of them is Gbaji, rather, he used Argath's obsessive mania and Nysalor's utter lack of caring about his worshippers to pit them against each other to lay waste to Glorantha.  This was a battlle where the only way Gbaji doesn't win is if they stop fighting.

Bravo, well said. Certainly not stupid (maybe not even a theory).

I'm echoing other voices here, but Glorantha Sourcebook and King of Dragon Pass would be my suggestions.

That character sheet is so ridiculously cool.......... aaaaargh. I'd very much like something universally applicable done with that style.

Hey, btw, now that Nick's Rough Guide to Glamour is up for POD, can we please that as an option for Armies too? I have money and I want to spend it!!

48 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It may be that the Yelmalio cult just does not acknowledge the part of Yelmalio's history where he was Orlanth's Thane, or that Elmal concentrates almost solely on that to the exclusion of being a good son to Yelm.

It certainly seems like this, which definitely brings up the possibility of an Elmalian resurgence by powerful Heroquesters, changing the nature of the Yelmalio cult once again. In light of the Six Ages, it could also possibly be a Hyaloring resurgence... which actually sounds pretty interesting, but all this may just be too confusing to contemplate in light of the RL history of this whole affair. 

Reading the premise of the planned Valley of the Plenty entry into Jonstown Compendium made me think how awesome it would be to play kids of the various houses in Nochet, involved in their own little gang wars that mirror (but don't exactly mimic, just so things get extra complicated) the politics of their parent houses. The villains are the baddies of the opposed gangs/houses, your parents ("Oh my gods MOM!") and often whoever acts as authority and enforcement in the district. A Romeo & Juliet scenario certainly sounds possible and your Initiations loom large on the horizon...

That's a view of Heroquesting that I haven't really thought about, but I like it. Nothing more incisive to comment at this juncture though!

Oh I see, I did indeed think of old Kakita Toshimoko when I read the name Grey Crane, but now I see why...