Grievous

Does that mean we won't be getting a Red Cow. Vol III with a focus on the future? I'd support that. 

In any case, I was considering the eras in regards to Mankcam's idea of having a set of systemless  Pavis, Sartar, and Sartar Companion books. That said, I'm also fully behind the idea (with my wallet in hand) of just re-printing the books with improvements (esp. as pertains to art)!

As an aside, I'm planning to use the Red Cow campaign with Runequest mechanics for my gaming group. I might end up using Heroquest as a layer on top of that for some of the more meta/sweeping/large scale resolution. I'm hoping to find/develop some synergy between the two systems in that sense and I'm kind of enjoying that this is a possible thing going forward. 

18 minutes ago, Ufnal said:

I feel I am starting to slip into nitpicking arguments, for which I apologise, so I felt I need to state clearly what my problem is.

For what it's worth, I don't think you're nitpicking and I appreciate you voicing these concerns. It's a topic that I'm trying to wrap my head around as well and some comments on this thread do muddy the waters a bit. It seems to me that at some point there was a policy decision that lessened the strict division of the different worlds. Having grown my understanding of Glorantha based on the old paradigm, I'm still not sure how to square that circle.

The idea that "theistic magic is about being something, spiritual is about having something, sorcerous is about knowing something" still seems valid to me, but at the same it seems the difference between being, having and knowing themselves may have eroded. I'm having to exercise my Illuminated third eye to get at that and just swallow the paradox, but if a discussion here can bring a better understanding of this topic for me (and others), I'd be very grafteful.

28 minutes ago, Ufnal said:

 

But don't the archers themselves care? One of them has to follow the teachings of his god, the other has a relationship with a spirit in his charm. Which makes for much different roleplaying (the theist is supposed to adhere to his god's example and tenent, the spiritist is supposed to take care of his spirit's needs), doesn't it?

 

[otherwise, if there's no difference in the experience of the characters, in the in-world effects, in mechanics etc - why even mention that there are diferent kinds of magic if they are completely interchangeable?]

 

EDIT: Also, why does nobody care whether they are fighting a heroformer (when they can exploit the knowledge of their god to throw them off and make them stop heroforming) or a person [somehow] embodying a spirit (when they can banish a spirit with anti-spirit magics, or negotiate with it, or whatever)?

Yeah, I see those as pretty significant things to make note of, even without any God-Learner concepts being thrown in. It would also probably have an effect on how you'd go about opposing such magics (or perhaps whether you'd oppose them at all).

I would LOVE a repurposed set of Sartar/Sartar Companion (and why not Pavis) in that vein, ESPECIALLY if the art was received a pass, just bringing it up a notch and updating to reflect the current art direction on the Orlanthi. The only wrinkle in the ointment is how to handle the timeline going forward, without losing information, but not getting swamped in stuff, since we're bumping along to the future.

Not that I wish to use the situation to collect points, but I do think this thread sort of proves my point that clearer language in the source text would be useful (ie. could avoid a lot of needless argument that reflects poorly on all things involved) and being intentionally vague is a bad policy, even where the goal would be to empower the reader by a form of sleight-of-writing.

2 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

1/ Finding some rpg write before 90s as open, efficient and simple than RuneQuest is almost impossible. ... Forums wars are just a way to sharpen yourself and your games. A clear language is Lhankor Mhy quest and one of Eurmal Nightmare... (I'm a pro-Eurmal)

2/ Everything is said. Like boardgames 2 extreme rules usually apply : Everything not authorized is forbidden OR Everything not forbidden is authorized ! I prefer the first for board game but never choose any for rpg

3/ Your playing in Glorantha man ... GLORANTHA, have you ever heard of a guy named Greg Stafford ? Ask some grognards about his T-shirt and habits. Being vague is an euphemism if you speak about Glorantha, About the system Like JEFF said : YGMV ie Your Gaming May Vary... (work well with Glorantha, GM also with grognard, gorp, gag ...)

I appreciate your viewpoints and I don't entirely disagree - but I guess I disagree enough.

Let's put it this way. I think the rules of an RPG intended for Gloranthan play are supposed to give you the tools to "heroquest" in the mythic realm of Glorantha. The provider of the rules is the community facilitating this. If the result is division and discord, not play, then the community has failed. Of course, you can't avoid all conflict and Chaos will rear its ugly head (hah, either in a Gloranthan or Petersonian meaning), and you'll handle it when it does, but you really shouldn't build for it, either.

I'll have to respectfully say that I think that's a rather bad policy. Writing in vague language that results in gaming groups having uncertainty and actual arguments, not to say anything about forum wars and so on, is - I'd say - bad policy, when all of that could be avoided by clear language. That may sound trivial at fist glance, but we're talking about literally hours of people's time and effort (and emotion), all of which reflects on and gets associated with the product being discussed (and despite a persistent saying to the contrary all publicity is not good publicity). 

Of course, that said, not everything in every situation can be made explicit considering limitations on length of text.

However, if something needs to be established as a thing that can be taken in two, or multiple different ways depending on preference, then that is something that a sidebar, note, or something along those lines should accomplish. There is a huge difference in something being vague and something being optional, even if it is a case of a writer employing sleight-of-writing. 

Well, at least this thread alerted me to the realization that the Cult Compendium Hardback that was still available on the online store was a rare beast (ie. bought now, rather than later).

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Perhaps she went too far in that feud and the Maboder would not settle unless she were also exiled?

 

Yeah, but then to end up working seemingly happily with King Kathelranda is strange.

I'm doing some preparatory background work for this and I've been mulling over a few things.

Some of the details concerning Ivartha's background raise a few questions. Her exile as part of the Split Waters feud seems a bit strange. Farandar prosecuted the very same feud and was rewarded by wealth and glory, pretty much at the same time. The following switch from Ivartha prosecuting the feud vs. the Maboder with so much fervor as to get her exiled to suddenly serving King Kathelranda in Torkan's Vale seems like a rather strange turn-around as well.

A sidebar notes that Valenstor Moor-Leaper, the chieftain of the Red Cow at the time, opposed the clan's involvement in Torkan's Vale, yet many went, following Ivartha. At this stage as per the text Ivartha is already exiled.  

Also, as in aside, Ortossi Ketilssson who accompanied Ivartha in exile would've been very young at this point. He was 15 when the feud ended (so possibly younger when he got into it), and then he accompanied Ivartha to Torkan's Vale. Certainly not impossible, but a bit strange. Speaking of his age, Ortossi is also quite old to have been fostered by Farandar's unnamed cousin. Farandar is 9 only years older. Again, perhaps not too odd or irreconcilable, but something I noted and found a little difficult to place (as I was jotting down notes for lineages within the clan).

So, the question isn't so much the oft' repeated who IS Belintar, but what was he doing?

I'd like to think that I'm relatively well-versed in Glorantha, but compared to some of the veterans around here my knowledge is only very newly gained and it's trying to wrap my head around things like this when it shows. One of the more odd things is that what the heck was Belintar doing - or trying to do - in the Holy Country? Thus I come to you for explanations, theories, conjecture, or what have you.

I can see some hallmarks of what he was doing, but the gist of it escapes me. There's six "sixths", fitting with six elements, with Six Guardians, all doing something. Why was he a "patchwork god", yet why was he more than the sum of his parts, though? Something also tells me that the fact that the Only Old One was there (and why he had to be removed) is part of the equation. Perhaps the region itself seems special somehow. How do the governors fit in - do they have a magical role in this?

So, lots of questions. I really got more into thinking about all this after the Prince of Sartar comic, but it didn't really make it all the much clearer to me.

Then, of course, there is Belintar's nature itself. He is certainly using a serial immortality which is very similar to the Red Emperor. What exactly is the connection between Belintar's approach and the Red Goddess' aside from the fact that both seem to tap into the Moon rune? He seems to be striving for godhood, yes, but perhaps quite not as megalomaniacally.

Oh, and what was that Larnsting doing there and why how come it pissed off the Sartarites? Is this why there have been no Larnstings of late? What was the Larnsting's role in the patchwork?

This isn't really only to sate my idle curiosity. I find the high level adaptive meta-magic/philosophy that happens between some of bigger movers'n'shakers very interesting, but difficult to grasp in an actionable manner. And our gaming group tends to go for the high concept stuff, so I'd like to get my noodle wrapped around the concepts enough that I can toy with them. I mean, if all you wanna do is crawl in some ditch in rural Sartar, more power to you, but I think there's some room for higher power level gaming in Glorantha as well. I'd like to create Gods and Goddesses, do some experimental Heroquesting, and toy around with... well, whatever Belintar's doing, as well, but there doesn't seem to be as big of a toolbox for GMs or PCs for that kind of thing in the Gloranthan arsenal at the moment.

Sorry for not offering much substance outside of a (huge) bunch of questions, but this topic is one that stumps me.

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Given that Bruvala got rid of two daughters (Bruvalaina and Bruva), there's no reason she wouldn't try to force Brengala out too in favor of a younger and manipulable successor.  If Bruvala decided that Brengala was working to oust herself as Reverend Grandmother, then going back to Bruva's offspring (where Bruva is dead) to find a compliant Queen would make sense.

My impression from the Esrolian Queens List is that Brengala enjoyed the support of her mother to the end, so it seems an ousting by Bruvala at this late stage seems rather unlikely.

Indeed, it definitely seems House Norinel comes out in a strong position even after Bruvala's death. I think Brengala's retirement to the role of Reverend Grandmother was not so much giving away power in favor of her daughter, but taking a more firm hold off things, trying to retain to status quo that existed under Bruvala. Sure, it doesn't prove quite as solid under Brengala, but still, it does essentially take Belintar to shake things up.

And perhaps we should consider the role Sartar's assassins also played. It does seem awfully convinient that they clear the table just in time for Belintar to come shake things up in favor of House Delaeos.

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However, there's always a 2nd Grandmother.  We don't know who Bruva married, or which House they were connected to.  And with Bruva's murder, that House would have found itself on the outs with Bruvala (and likely Brengala).  Arkillia stays in the palace, but Grandmother #2 works hard to keep a connection there, and perhaps has in mind a marriage between Arkillia and another branch of her House to restore position (and more if Arkillia becomes Queen).  So Arkillia's turn to Sarotar throws that out the window.  With Bruvala dead, Brengala and Norina new to their positions, Grandmother #2 strikes at Sarotar to remove him and get Arkillia repositioned as possible heir to become Queen.  This puts Grandmother #2's House into conflict with House of Sartar.

This is all possible - though I still think it would be more likely that Arkillia hides, not in the palace with her mother's killers, but with the secondary House in question. But it's not impossible, perhaps. It's really a matter of who gets to her.

Yet, if Sarotar was killed by this secondary Grandmother it doesn't explain why Norinel is on the black list when the Sartarite assassins come.

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1) House Oranaeo.  They held Queenship from 1430-1460, as well as holding the Governor of Heortland position.  But their internal feuds resulted in the Barren Year of 1460, from which Bruvala emerged.  Not sure Bruvala would have trusted them with a marriage to Bruva, but they are one of the Five Great Houses.  A feasible option, and they would neither trust the Sartarites nor the Norinels, which fits with their 'neutral' stance.

A marriage to them could have been done as an appeasement. Obviously, in the case it was to Bruva, it would've failed to that effect as Bruva herself rebelled (perhaps influenced by her husband and her House) and the scheme continues with Arkillia. However, if such a marriage was done it seems far more likely that it would have been to Bruvalaina, as Joerg suggests, even though she wasn't the eldest (she was the queen-to-be, though).

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3) House Delainaeo.  They were the actual rulers of Nochet from 1397-1430.  Their hold weakened.  Exactly what position they had under Bruvala is unknown, but by 1545-1550 they clearly gained the ear of Belintar and went on to give birth to Dormal.  Probably already in the works from a magical preparation standpoint before then.  So, no great impact from Dorasar's revenge here.  Seems less likely candidate.

The "merchant's daughter" line does favor this option a little bit.

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4) House Delaeos.  Hadn't ruled since 1397, so long time on the outs.  Strong connections with the Old Ways of the Heortlings/Vingkotlings though.  More likely to have encouraged Arkillia's relations with Sarotar then to hinder it.  Therefore, they likely used the series of assassinations to build up their power base, with a son becoming Belintar in 1550 and Imarjina, a granddaughter of Bruvala becoming Queen in 1551 after Norina's death.  Not a likely candidate.

It is possible that a Grandmother with a lenient view towards the Sartarite affair would look to Sarotar as the lever for gaining power at the expense of House Norinel. Here, the alternative suitors are those forwarded by Brengala/Norina to Arkillia, who could definitely live among them (as almost a hostage). The suitors are ones considered politically safe. The Sarotar affair endangers this, and emboldens the other House's Grandmother, who is actually in support of the affair. The love match is strong and the threat becoming real, so the suitors kill Sarotar (under the orders of the Queen or Reverend Grandmother) and House Norinel puts down any dissent in Nochet. Sartarite assassins bring justice rightly to the ones who caused the death.

It's a twist on things, mostly regarding the secondary Grandmother, but I think it's a feasible idea.

As I pointed out earlier, it does seem convinient that Sartar's assassins kill Norina, helping Delaeos place one of their own on the throne. Though it's not Arkillia they are trying to put on the throne as the earlier plot would suggest, but now they have Belintar to support their own, matrilineal claimant.

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Since then, I'd guess that the varied lines descending from either Bruvala's sisters or her own daughters/granddaughters (who survived) has led to a number of 'factions' within House Norinel which have likely been exacerbated by Hendira

That's a cool thing to consider, certainly. I sense potential adventures there.

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Yet Arkillia does not seem one to encourage them all.  Something about the "Sad Lady" title suggests she was perhaps more an object of attention than one charming the suitors.

This is possible. It's also possible that the "Sad Lady" name comes from later, when Sarotar had died and Marlesta had disappeared.

Great discussion and ideas, guys! I must say Esrolian politics has a very nice flavor to it and I'm really starting to like the place as a setting for adventures.

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

I have decided for my scenario "Norinevra's Homecoming" (the first half of which about to see publication in the German HQ scenario collection) that Arkilia is a granddaughter of Bruvala born into House Norinel, that means through maternal lineage.

The only thing about that is that it doesn't jive with the idea that Arkillia's Grandmother wanted her to become Queen. Of course, that can be just "fake news", but it feels like an odd piece of the puzzle to be just rumors.

This is inspired partly by the information on Nochet's queens by Jeff Richard and the musing of Joerg Baumgartner's on G+.

The question is who exactly was Arkillia and whether the information on Nochet's queens can help us answer this question.

The canon knowledge concerning this affair is as follows:

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The Tragedy of Sarotar and Arkilia

Sarotar was the eldest son of Prince Saronil and considered by all to be the best of the House of Sartar. He fell in love with Arkilia, an Esrolian noblewoman, and his love was returned. However, Arkilia’s Grandmother had ambitions of making her Queen of Nochet and had arranged for her to marry a powerful man of another Esrolian house. Sarotar rescued Arkilia from Nochet and returned with her to Boldhome.

Furious, the Grandmother arranged for Arkilia’s dejected lovers to murder Sarotar with the aid of traitors. The assassins murdered Sarotar, but his kinsman Dorasor avenged him. Many believe that Sarotar’s assassination was the beginning of the doom of the House of Sartar and his half-brother High King Tarkalor always maintained that Sarotar would have been a far greater king than he.

Sarotar is remembered in the poem of the Lovers of Boldhome:

King Sartar the Great, who courted the Horse Queen and won her Love; Prince Saronil the Bridgemaker, who loved his doomed Runaway Woman; King Tarkalor, who left his land for a year to win the Feathered Queen. But none loved so great as Sarotar, who gave his life for Arkillia.

 

and

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The Tragic Prince and the Sad Lady

This famed ballad about Sarotar son of Saronil and his love Arkillia, an Esrolian noblewoman, describes events circa 1540 to 1546. Conflicting vows of love and duty led to Sarotar’s murder by Arkillia’s other suitors. The ballad is sometimes combined with either the mournful Song of Marlesta the Dancer, the daughter of tragic couple, or with the Song of Vengeance, which details the bloody vengeance taken by Sarotar’s brother and cousin upon his murderers.

The story is also a popular play in the Holy Country, and contrasts the fierce loyalty of the Sartarites with the manipulative schemes of the Esrolians. In all versions, Arkillia is portrayed as the tragic victim of events.

 

and

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In 1546 Sarotar, the eldest son of Saronil, died a tragic death which was later immortalized in a Kethaelan play. Sarotar loved the woman Arkillia, a merchant’s daughter called “the Sad Lady” in the play. Sarotar died for her love, they say, but his daughter Marlesta the Dancer, later renounced his ways, denied her heritage, and joined the Puppeteer Troup

So, those are the established facts (in the sense that they known about, not necessarily that they are true).

When Sarotar died in 1546, Esrolia/Nochet was embroiled in some rather big changes. Reverend Grandmother Bruvala had died and her daughter - queen Brengala - had retired, taking her mother's place. She in turn had placed her daughter Norina on the throne, who would in 1551 be killed by Sartarite assassins in retaliation for the killing of Sarotar. Though these are fundamentally large changes, House Norinel's hold on power seems strong.

So, who was Arkillia, a woman whose Grandmother supposedly had ambitions of placing her on the throne?

I think three main scenarios present themselves as likely.

1) Bruvala or Brengala (I think it might be safe to assume that Brengala was mostly calling the shots at the late stage of Bruvala's life during which Sarotar and Arkillia had their affair) intended Arkillia to take the throne, not Norina. This would very likely mean that Arkillia is a granddaughter of Bruvala, perhaps even the elder sister of Norina. However, this scenario leaves open the question that why did Arkillia not actually end up becoming queen? Maybe the Sarotar affair sullied her chances, but somehow that doesn't feel right.

2) Arkillia was daughter of one of Bruvala's sons, thus born into another house. In this case the scheming Grandmother would be from that house (perhaps Delaeos, which ends up taking the throne in '51 after one of their number becomes Belintar).

This does raise a few interesting questions, though. Why did Sartar's assassins kill Norina in retaliation? One would think their ire would be directed solely at this other house. Secondly, is it even realistic to assume anyone could break the Bruvala/Brengala/Norina (ie. House Norinel) axis? They seem pretty solidly in power at this stage (and indeed it seems that it takes a Belintar to momentarily break their power).

A potential answer to these questions is that perhaps an Arkilia-Sarotar match represented a serious threat to the throne (an outsider with an army sounds dangerous and could be the leverage that could break Norinel's hegemony). This would be a slight twist to the known facts. Maybe the Grandmother of the rival house was actually in favor of the marriage and the rival suitors were supported or forwarded by House Norinel in an effort to quell the situation.

3) The third option is that Arkillia is Queen Bruva's daughter and thus she was the daughter of a traitor and would-be usurper. However, again we are faced with contradictory facts. Why is it said her Grandmother wanted her to become a queen? Why would a possibly secret heir or at least a woman with questionable heritage have a host of suitors? And again, why would Sartar's assassins kill queen Norina in retaliation for this affair?

To possibly answer those questions, let's consider that she was raised by her father, who would probably have to have gone back to her original family to protect himself and the life of the child. Alternatively, he could have remarried an ambitious house willing to take on the burden for the chance of raising a queen. This would setup a rival dynasty to House Norinel. Whence the host of suitors? Well, the Grandmother of this rival house would be looking for some powerful allies to help her gain the throne. In this case, Sarotar's entry and love for Arkillia mixes things up (though in this case the Grandmother would have no appreciation of Sarotar's potential in helping win the throne). Why queen Norina dies in retaliation remains a question, though.

4) Arkillia was not related to Bruvala at all. In this case, anything is possible really. However, this doesn't feel like the right direction to go in my opinion, considering what we know and what happened.

So, those are the scenarios I'm proposing. Personally, I like #2 or #3 best as the most interesting alternatives. It also occurs to me that we do not really know what happened to Arkillia herself. Let me know what you think!