Grievous

30 minutes ago, RHW said:

No printing press, no novels. Without mass production of books, they're too rare and too expensive to be a source of private entertainment.

That's a good point.

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Most written or oral entertainment would be based on historical figures, and of course, in Glorantha, even if you make something up, if enough people believe a character is real, he or she could still manifest in the Other World. I remember reading once that some Chinese gods started out as fictional characters , but gathered enough believers to receive worship. So if there are any authors out there in Glorantha, they're potentially very dangerous people. Perhaps the state requires their removal? But of course, trying to get rid of them might mean defeating their fictional constructs. Good luck with that.

Indeed. One could imagine a fictional writer/storyteller like that being essentially equal to or even explicitly a Chaos worshipper! That's actually an interesting idea for a bad guy..

Who is Arkat? Uhh, yeah, that's a doozy and a question that definitely also gets asked in "modern" day Glorantha as well.

His story has a pretty simple seeming beginning, but it gets complicated rather quickly until answering that question becomes pretty difficult - and also an enjoyable mystery in itself, which plays in the current day game world in the form of the fragmented and divisive Arkat cult. He was a hero of Western origin, who became the first expert experimental Heroquester. He did some pretty deep investigations of the Godplane - so deep in fact that he ended up confronting himself over there. He also did something pretty rare in Glorantha and hopped from cult to cult, changing greatly in the process - so much so that he may have become a troll(!). To me he seems something of a Conan-meets-powergaming PC-meets-Thanos figure, but admittedly that's an odd bunch and doesn't really take into account just how unique of a character he is. What exactly happened when he confronted his great enemy Nysalor and fought him is also somewhat shrouded in mystery. If someone wants to lay down some deep insights on his later development and the twists and turns that are part of his history, I'd be interested to hear pretty much all your theories as well.

Also, this is Arkat:

On 1/22/2019 at 8:18 PM, galafrone said:

1) Who teaches to the teacher ? he learns from another rune master up to the beginning of times ? and even then how the first rune master learned those spells ?

Part of me really likes the answer that it goes through to the beginning of Time. The original spells could've been inherited from the God Time. Since then there has been a lineage that teaches this stuff and keeps the magical knowledge alive (ie. the cult). In cases where the line is broken, you're going to have to do some Heroquesting to the Godtime to regain the magic. And yeah, making sure that the high level spells continue would be a priority for the cult (and for the truly unscrupulous the killing of their possessers would an option). That is very evocative and really resonates with Glorantha in the sense of Time's relationship to Godtime (and maybe also with the idea that the 4th Age will have less magic in it..).

11 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

From what I gather, 6A is set over 1500 years before the HQ 'present', so there is much that will have changed.  Language, Religion, food and clothing, to name a few!

Yeah, this distance and the fact that there really aren't any Hyalorings in this mold around is a bit of a bummer for anyone who wishes to use this material in current era Hero-/Runequest. I've really no idea how their traditions might still survive (the Pentians seem like very distant ancestors at this point). Maybe a campaign focusing on a Heroquested Hyaloring resurgence somewhere would be somehow doable, but there's not to much work from there. Maybe the last planned installment of Six Ages in the Dawn Age will help, but even that is a long time ago and Hyalorong is long gone from the maps.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Yelm conquers the Dark Sky Dragon Burburstus - but that doesn't mean Burburstus is dead, it becomes Yelms Throne, Kelastan. This is a very similar myth to Orlanth conquering the dragon and wielding its head to show his power. The power of Burburstus is unleashed when the Emperor is not on the Throne, and Passion and Death are the result. But this means that when there is an Emperor on the throne, the Imperial power IS the dragon power, chained to the Emperors will. 

I'm sure the EWF, as they did with Orlanth, take this myth and turn it around to Yelm providing the sky dragon with utuma, and acquiring secret dragon nature, thereby. 

Those are pretty concisely insightful paragraphs! Makes a helluva lot of sense to me.

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I think the Sun Dragon cult is more or less the cult of the Sun Emperor and the Dark Dragon as one being, united - when the Emperor is one his Dragon throne, and the Bright Emperor and Dark Dragon are thus united, Dragon becomes Man (and gains arms as necessary), and Dragon becomes Sun (and shines with Fiery power). When there is no Emperor on the Throne, the Dragon loses its connection with Light and its connection with Man, and Mankind loses its connection with the Emperor.

.. but I'm not sure I'm following you here. And what if there's an Emperor on the throne who is having none of this Dragon nature business? Can he still be worshipped as part of the Sun Dragon cult or is there a disconnect (and the Sun Dragon is considered a separate, maybe utuma-created, part still hidden on some other layer that is not identified with the Emperor?).

42 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Not really. The God-Learners drew on a lot of sources, sure, but their goal was to set up an ultimate, objectively true framework and cosmic narrative, by diving into the essence of existence. Postmodernists actively oppose such notions. Vehemently.

That is a fair point. I do think what they did in the process to dissolve the myths as they found them is effectively some post modernist wizardry however, even if they were aiming at something beyond just deconstruction. In fact, I think that's the merit of post modernist thought in general, whereas the weakness is precisely in that it doesn't really seem to easily lead to anything very fruitful by itself. It is very much the "solve" part of the old alchemist's "solve et coagula", which is effective, but only part of the whole toolset... but here we are, veering out of Glorantha again.

I find it difficult not to see the God-Learners as pretty much post modernists themselves (though ultimately this is a pretty meritless line of consideration as we are talking about Glorantha here, not the real world).

I've linked this before on this forum, but I think this is a great comedic view into the God Learner Secret:

13 hours ago, jeffjerwin said:

and Harshax... and ?

It's always followed, however, by a irruption of Chaos.

The cosmos is ossifying under the tyrants and the Chaos is necessary to break that. Of course, some Chaos in excess of that needed for a healthy cosmos tends to spill over and cause a little too much ruckus.

However, I'm not sure if the Red Goddess is actually a tyrant purely in that mold, because she is also offering the cure. Hmm.

I have to say that this has been a great thread. Though it had its dark moments where I was pulling at my hair because I thought I had sorted out this Elmal-Yelmalio thing only to be dragged back down into confusion, at the end I think I at least came out with a better - esp. a more gameable - view into the whole thing. So yeah, solid thread, y'all. Now nobody say anything controversial! There's Ian' thread OVER THERE for anyone who wants to dip back down into the depths of the God-Plane and into the Font of Potential Argument (another good thread for discussion though, too).

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I suppose not, but you can reach very, very different conclusions, imho.

As for Occlusion - This might be the Elder Scrolls series of video games influencing me with their version of enlightenment and "occlusion" - but I always interpreted it as a form of mystical solipsism. In Lunar mysticism, illumination is summarized through the phrase "We Are All Us". By contrast, I get the impression that occlusion could be summarized by the phrase "We Are All Me".

I think that is certainly one way it can go - maybe the easiest way to go awry, in fact. Possibly what Sheng is doing, considering he is likely thinking that what goes for him, should go for the world (so hey yeah let's create the world of suffering that will illuminate all). However, I do see other paths by which you can be occluded and go towards a corrupted sort of illumination. "We Are All Nothing" (to continue the "We Are All"-theme) is certainly another one, and probably one that goes easily with Chaos. I think you can get creative with these, which is a good thing for games/stories.

2 hours ago, daskindt said:

So it occurs to me that that Orlanthi have several ways in which they might respond to Monrogh and his followers when the Yelmalio missionaries show up and start trying to persuade followers of Elmal to join the cult of New Elmal, AKA Yelmalio. When challenged with the revelation that Elmal is just a mask of Yelmalio the Orlanthi have a couple answers already built into their myths about Elmal.

What will the Sun Priests tell the rest of the Storm Tribe when Yelmalio claims to be the true face of Elmal?

Is Elmal Yelmalio?

1) No. Elmal is not Yelmalio.

Elmal left the Fire Tribe after he was healed by Chalana Arroy and he realized he wasn’t a very nice person and his tribe weren’t very nice people. Elmal’s brothers were angry that Elmal left the Fire Tribe and were jealous that Elmal possessed the most brilliant light of all of them. Yelmalio was the greatest of those little jealous brothers. That Yelmalio’s followers claim that Elmal is just a mask of Yelmalio is a manifestation of that anger and jealously and fueled by the Teller of Lies (see: Chaos, see: Nysalor-Gbaji).

2) Yes. Elmal is Yelmalio.

Elmal left the Fire Tribe after he was healed by Chalana Arroy. He wasn’t a very nice person and used to be called Yelmalio. His tribe weren’t very nice people. Chalana Arroy healed Yelmalio’s broken body and broken spirit and restored his lost power after his defeat(s) at the hands of his enemies. Yelmalio was no longer Yelmalio and now became Elmal. A wiser, nicer, and all around more chill fellow. This brought Elmal to Orlanth who proved worthy of Elmal’s service. Now Elmal uses his strength and brilliance to serve and protect others. In the process, he proved himself worthy to carry the burden of the Sun Disk across the sky. That now Yelmalio’s followers claim that Elmal is just a mask of Yelmalio is a manifestation of that anger and jealously and fueled by the Teller of Lies (see: Chaos, see: Nysalor-Gbaji). They worship the broken and unworthy Yelmalio before he was healed by Chalana Arroy. Our Elmal is the true version of what became of Elmal and a much nicer person.

3) Yes. Elmal is Yelmalio.

Elmal is Yelmalio. Enemy of Orlanth and Son of Yelm. We have been lied to and Orlanth has abused our loyalty and service. Orlanth is unworthy of our loyalty. Yelmalio, the Cold Sun, survived without the aid of Chalana Arroy. Yelmalio is greater than the Storm Tribe and does not need them. We should make our own rules and follow our own ways. No follower of Orlanth is fit to rule us.

I dig these, though the third raises some questions. What/who was the Elmal that was worshipped? Some false construct spun by Orlanth? Sounds almost chaotic. How does one arrive at this idea?

And that's really what I would really like to undertstand better in this whole Elmal-Yelmalio debacle. How exactly did the conversion started by Monrogh happen and what were the explanations and mythic concepts that made it possible? As things stand, it seems to me that most people would have gone with something similar 1 or 2 from the above list, but instead Monrogh's message seems to have been very compelling, but we don't get any real information on this, so I'm left without a very key piece to understand how this went down in Sartar and thus how it would look now.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's exactly what did NOT happen to Sheng. Sheng was a very successful mystic until he decided to spurn all his previous efforts to take greatest powers of rulership and destruction rather than liberation. Enlightenment had already been his for decades, he was way further on the course to the ultimate goal. It was the Antigod decision, similar to what Keltari did when he took on the face of Atrilith and twisted it.

Enlightenment or Illumination is an entry grade achievement on the path of mysticism. In Lunar mysticism, awakening the seventh soul is what gives you access to the mysteries. Meeting Rashoran, confronting Gbaji are all enlightened activities. Exposing herself fully to Blaskarth, the ultimate Chaos, and meeting the coded insight in "The Lives of Sedenya" (which, as a text, still is a very weak way to convey this) is way beyond simple Illumination.

No. He consciously abandoned all his further steps of Enlightenment (though he would have retained some basic level which even a failed mystic cannot give up - to compare with the EWF draconic insight, a brain can be split, but it cannot be unsplit).

Yeah, he's a sort of evil (or reverse) Boddhisattva. He gives up further enlightenment for what he sees as the benefit of other living beings. Unfortunately for those beings, his idea of "benefit" for them is the same kind of torturous existence that forged himself.

I'm not sure (to which extent) I buy the premise of this thread, but I am definitely enjoying it and this perspective into the myths. Mind-if-not-blown-then-sufficiently-expanded!

Also, I find myself suddenly thinking that it's odd that the Red Goddess often gets described as a sort of Frankenstein deity (ie. lesser in a sense), instead of being a greater truth revealed by her many constituent parts. If the premise of this thread is in the right, it's interesting to note that nobody is saying that about Yelm - at least not anymore, so one wonders if such resistance and bad press were initially thrown around.

Maybe it's because it is easy to see a constructed Yelm as necessary (I mean, look at the sun and the myriad explanations that could easily accommodate a grander narrative) , whereas the Red Goddess was hardly necessary on a grand cosmic level (and the physical moon followed rather than predated her appearance). There's elements of reversal there. Yelm picks up Many strands and gives a mythological grounding for them being One, while the Red Goddess does.. well, something different, almost contrary.

Tying Yelm into Nysalor's existence in this way also curiously ties the Red Goddess into the whole thing... and well, it really resonates with what we have in the Gloranthan present day. I've always been interested in how the mythologies of Yelm and the Red Goddess really co-exist and tie into each other on the follower level within the Empire anyway, because it wouldn't be hard to see some profound antagonism there too. 

However, Nysalor and the Red Goddess are associated with Chaos. Yelm, clearly, isn't. 

2 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I don't know any specific inspirations besides our general "bronze age", especially India and the Mediterranean, but probably drugs played at least a small part too if we're being honest...

Yeah, Glorantha is not a little psychedelic in its twists and turns. Even/especially the Red Goddess somehow comes together in a kaleidospic zero-and-everything pulsing weirdness that seems very influenced by that current, but yeah - it does seem to be in Gloratha's very DNA.

Greg, we'll be seeing on the Heroplane, where your spirit will continue to sustain and entertain us!

It would be great to understand how this idea (that not all Orlanthi are Initiates) works with the Orlanthi initiation rites exactly, and whether the Second Son/Star Heart has any bearing (probably not, so another questions would be that what game mechanical considerations might be appropriate to apply to it - but that's really a separate topic).

I'm aware of http://www.glorantha.com/docs/orlanthi-initiation-rites/ and that we really have to separate the initiation rites from being an Initiate (yes, it's confusing, but there we go). But when and how does one go about becoming an Initiate? At the second year gathering? I dunno, I'd just like my setting text and game mechanics to be lined up nicely.

On 9/27/2018 at 12:07 AM, godsmonkey said:

Actually, I based the game off of HeroQuest Glorantha, as that's the book I own. I also run a RQ:G game, and certainly see some house rules derived from HQ coming out of it. Most notably, masteries.

I'd be curious to hear about your mastery house rules. The idea to do something like that in RQ:G has come to my mind as well, but I haven't laid anything out as of yet.

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This "The God Learners Retconned the Universe"-theory strikes me much the same way. Probably not one I'll ever entertain seriously, but another fun conspiracy or meta-textual perspective to ponder.

Agreed - it is a very cool theory, but it isn't necessarily conducive to the kind of stories I want to tell in Glorantha.

10 hours ago, Psullie said:

Sartar KoH lists Selelmal the True as Lord of Runegate, he performs a HeroQuest during the Great Winter to protect the town but attracts many enemies.

The GM Pack Adventure book lists Verinos the Old, council chief as master of Runegate. So what happened to him and his white horse?

Hmm, wait - I don't think Selelmal is the Lord of Runegate, but the High Priest of Elmal in Runegate? That means Verinos the Old's existence as Lord doesn't necessarily mean Selelmal isn't still around.

Great topic, I admit to being a little stumped as to what to do with these whenever I'll get to that point after reading about them in Eleven Lights. I'm definitely not up to the known mythology about them, so this thread is great information and inspiration.

I wonder how the fact that they are discovered as a group of three will effect things. What kind of bond will this form between these separate gods, how will they individually feel this and how could this be reflected in the (newly) emerging mythology? To me, it seems this should also be a factor in their new resurgence.  

1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

That is not my opinion.

That is not me trolling.

That is a fact.

Well, it's not a fact like the Earth is round, it's actually a fact about an opinion - maybe an influential opinion in your sphere, but still an opinion.

No one would bat an eye at my workplace (however I'm sure plenty of people would find the art pretty damn cool), though I'm sure a conversation about roleplaying games would follow (which I might not have the patience for). I would have to go out of my way to find a place where reading the book would cause anything like this ruckus - like really out of my way to find some deeply religious and conservative environment or maybe a space where neo-feminists who like their cues from (mostly) American affairs congregate (I guess I could find this at the local Uni, if I went looking into the right basements). And oddly enough I live in a repressive socialist dystopia (at least that's what I hear) called Finland.

That said, I am worried that this kind of puritanical thinking could be spreading, but ahhh that's politics and maybe beyond the scope of this forum. Anyway, I'm sorry you have to deal with this kind of thing, esp. since this really isn't your opinion. I wonder why you are bringing other people's prejudices to the table though? You say there's a financial incentive for Chaosium, but one wonders which way that incentive truly lies. Maybe that's worth study, maybe not. I also think it displays some character, which helps you stand out, so maybe being brave in your marketing is the way to do it? ("Just do it", for example). And I mean we're hardly talking about anything that is even borderline risque.

That said, I am interested in this Arkati tantric manual. 😅

I think if a rider is called a cataphract, barding is included in the package. Certainly the Western cultures and I do think Carmanians are described thusly as well. Seems like a Western invention that spread to the Lunars through Carmania. That's my view, at least.

3 hours ago, Pentallion said:

The pushback needs to happen in court.  Suing the employer for harrassment over art and claiming it is creating its own "hostile work environment".

Exactly. Fight fire with fire. Part of me is worried the battle may already be lost in some parts, though. 

7 hours ago, Mechashef said:

Ok, so some background.

I posted this after getting to work today and finding an email stating that I had to answer a claim of reading pornography at work.  I.e. I had been reported because of the content of the RQG PDF.  

After going through mediation and checking each page it was decided not to take it further as the material was considered borderline.  The agreement was that an official complaint would not be made if I agreed not to read it at work again.

Ironically the page the person complained about wasn't one of the "worst offenders"

For the record, it was decided that the unsuitable pages were:

12, 22, 51, 83, 99, 268, 272, 289, 302, 364, 424.

I later heard the person has a long history of making similar complaints.

I have a hard time believing this. I mean, what kind of Orwellian working place is this? And that any place would bother going through and listing the unsuitable pages is straight outta some totalitarian cartoon.

53 minutes ago, g33k said:

Fair enough.  Apologies for misunderstanding.

I thought it seemed kinda strawman to equate Handmaid's Tale with Orlanth myths; hence the sigh.

 

 

To be fair, I haven't watched Handmaid's Tale, but am aware of it's cultural impact/significance to some extent.

I do wonder about the removal of problematic content in games, though. We're supposed to have conflicts and issues to deal with, no? Removing all problems will pretty much remove all content and that confounds me to some extent. Now, your concern about that content being squarely in the center of play, forcing it on the protagonists, is noteworthy, but for the kind of games I like to run and play, it seems to fit (I don't mind having the issues up front and being dealt with in play - our table will address them maturely and not take any glee in exploring them). For example, I think Vampire illustrates this. I think it is problematic in theme to the core - which is why we play it: to explore these issues. I don't think we become desensitized or more ignorant at all to these issues after a campaign, but on the contrary. I don't think sanitizing it (Vampire) is really an option, but I can totally understand and respect that not everyone might want to play that game (or if someone doesn't wan to to play in a game where we kill dozens to hundreds of orcs just because, for that matter). 

Also, some research to the contrary:

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Laboratory and correlational studies often find a link between violent video games and minor or benign forms of aggressive behaviors (e.g., exposing an opponent to an unpleasant noise). Based on these studies, the media, lawmakers, and researchers often imply a link between violent video games and violent criminal behavior. Using a similar methodology employed by researchers to examine predictors of severe violent behaviors (Anderson et al., Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 73: 1213–1223, 1997), 4 time-series analyses investigated the associations among violent crime (homicides and aggravated assaults), video game sales, Internet keyword searches for violent video game guides, and the release dates of popular violent video games (both annually and monthly). Contrary to the claims that violent video games are linked to aggressive assaults and homicides, no evidence was found to suggest that this medium was positively related to real-world violence in the United States. Unexpectedly, many of the results were suggestive of a decrease in violent crime in response to violent video games. Possible explanations for these unforeseen findings are discussed and researchers are cautioned about generalizing the results from laboratory and correlational studies to severe forms of violent behavior. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2016 APA, all rights reserved)

http://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Fppm0000030

And research on the effect of game realism in regards to aggression (sure, a somewhat different topic, but anyway):

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Realism is often described as increasing the effects of VVGs. These results contradict this perspective, and instead suggest that realism may not lead to increases in aggression-related variables.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875952117300113?via%3Dihub

And more discussion on this topic: https://www.businessinsider.com/video-games-and-violence-2018-3?r=US&IR=T#in-the-time-period-that-violent-video-games-have-become-popular-youth-violence-has-declined-6

But yeah, this isn't my field, so I don't want to get too far into it. I am skeptical of video game violence increasing aggression as some kind of straight causality (I do think it may in some cases, where there may already exist predispositions to violence), but am not unable to be convinced otherwise. Not sure if this is the forum for that, though.