Gallowglass

Resurrecting this thread because I basically have the same question as the OP, and I still don't quite get how the damage multipliers work. Sorry, this has probably been covered elsewhere. I've been digging around, but I still can't find an explanation that makes sense to me. 

Let's say I'm playing a Humakti with a greatsword (2d8 base damage), and I have the Gift that doubles damage after armor is penetrated. First I'm assuming that I should roll damage for everything else, then factor in the Gift as the last step.

So I cast Truesword, doubling my damage to 4d8. Then I attack my enemy, and roll a special success. Do I double 4d8 to 8d8? Or just double the base damage and add another 2d8, making 6d8 total? I'm leaning toward the latter option, because I thought that magical effects don't get multiplied on a special or critical. 

Anyway, now let's say that I penetrate my opponent's armor, and multiply my damage again. It should be either 12d8, or 16d8, depending on your interpretation of the rules, correct? Just trying to understand how it works. The special/critical question is the important one for me. 12d8 is a LOT of damage, but 16d8 is enough to chop the Crimson Bat in half! I exaggerate, but only slightly. 

Barntar’s Rules!

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

A Man-of-All is going to juggle trying to administer, protect, and learn - as magicians, they are going to likely be inferior to their Rokari counterparts; as soldiers, they are likely going to be inferior as well (at least initially). They are meritocratic dilettantes - likely identified at a likely Guardians at a young age, and then those with the most potential are trained to be Men-of-All (hopefully they pass their exams). I think a Man-of-All in training would be a wonderful character - a Platonic Guardian trying to protect and defend the community, while learning philosophy and sorcery. But initially, they aren't great sorcerers. And they don't need to be - the Loskalmi believe their strength is their rational social organization which promotes justice, virtue, and enlightened administration. With the conflict with the Kingdom of War, and the initial sharp defeats, the Loskalmi must quest for weapons and magic to use against their foes. New Men-of-All are raised based on fighting prowess more than spiritual development. Who knows - maybe things even get desperate enough for the Wizards and Lords to make offerings and sacrifices to the Gods of War and Death, in order to fight the avatar of War and Death?

This makes it sound like Men-of-All are exclusive sorcery users, and same for everyone above them on the meritocracy ladder. At least at the beginning of the war. Is this actually the case? I can definitely see Rune cults being popular among Workers, and those people in Loskalm who don't quite "fit in," like the former Hsunchen in the north and east. But sorcery seems like the magic of choice for the ruling castes. 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

These aren't my original thoughts, I'm mostly mirroring what I remember of Nick Brooke's theories from 25 years ago based on glimpses of Greg's western stories like Hrestol's Saga:

 

I keep seeing references to Hrestol's Saga, but I don't actually know what it is or how it fits into the Gloranthan canon. Is it available for consumption anywhere?

Just now, Sir_Godspeed said:

For the former question - the Rokari got their prominence by being a massive reactionary movement against God Learner practices.

But isn’t the New Hrestoli movement also a similar reaction, just in a different direction? Their vile demiurge is called Makan, the God Learner name for the Invisible God. I think I get why the Rokari abhor Heroquesting, I should have left them out of it.

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

Ancestor worship is big deal among the nobility. Illustrious ancestors are worshiped, and are a source of magic. These ancestor cults often have a zzaburi who performs the rites, but needs to have the nobles present and involved (since in most cases, they are the ones with the blood connection). Think something like Daka Fal, where folk are worshiping the state founder (Jonat Big Bear, Gerlant Flamesword, Talor the Laughing Warrior, etc.). The Rokari dislike this try to restrict this, but given that some of this is by their own protectors and guardians, exceptions are made.

 

I still have a hard time getting a handle on the Loskalmi and their magic. Is it only those who have achieved the level of Wizard who actually use sorcery? My reading of the GtG was that Men-of-All are trained in both combat and sorcery from the beginning (late teens, early 20's), and those who excel in it become proper wizards. Do they instead get Rune magic from these ancestor or Ascended Master cults? That would solve a lot of my game balance problems when I try to run a Loskalm campaign. 

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

And then there is practical God Learning - sending folk into the Hero World, boosted by as much sorcery as possible, to take magic to be used by Men. The Rokari are very reluctant to do this, the New Hrestoli do it all the damn time.

 

I've wondered about this a lot too. Why is this okay for the New Hrestoli, and not for the Rokari? Also, can Malkioni visit their own mythic past? Like taking a trip to Danmalastan, or taking part in the Kachisti's Speaking Tour? 

6 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

Yes, I really like it too and I am a little obsessed with making more sense of malkionism. I mean, right now there is not much usable material since the old material was scrapped, so I've been avoiding anything that treats westerners as medieval europeans and I would really like to write some myths about Malkion and Zzabur, to give malkionism more context. For the moment I have one about the ascension of Zzabur and why he made the closing, and I also would like to write one about how Warera takes Malkion to the west and gives him, maybe to mostal, maybe to Acos? to teach him the western ways, since I just read in The Book of Heortling Mythology about this. 

 

I agree, it can be difficult to get a handle on. Malkioni still feel a little unplayable to me for this reason, and because they're often not portrayed sympathetically to more traditional theists and animists. The existing rule systems don't always provide great options for playing Malkioni characters either, although HQG would probably work fine. And maybe RQ3, I'm not actually too familiar with it as a rule system. My favorite Gloranthan rule set is RQG, but the setting focus for that is kind of narrow right now. 

The only campaign I've run in Glorantha takes place in Sartar. But with every culture in the setting, it always seems to be "one part (this ancient people), one part (this other ancient people), one part (a whole lot of weirdness). Here is how I think about the varied cultures of Fronela-

• Loskalm - They feel the most Greek of all the Western peoples, but because of their cold environment, I actually imagine their architecture to look like a weird mix of Mauryan India, and medieval Russia. Stupas and onion domes, with timber forts and log houses in more rural country. Their art would look comparatively very Greek, with lots of sculpture that idealizes the human form. I get the sense that everyone in Loskalm favors simple and utilitarian styles of dress that underplay their caste (which is defined very differently than in Seshnela). Still, you would probably see wizards wearing tall hats and robes, warriors decked out in full armor and weapons, and farmers wearing simple tunics with cloaks. The nobles probably display some austere combination of all three, rather than flaunt their wealth and status like their southern cousins do. 
• For the people of the Janube, again I imagine the home culture (Pelorian), but visually they would be better adapted for the colder environment. More heavily (and perhaps elaborately) dressed, and their architecture might have more timber and sloped roofs compared to the mud-brick dwellings and stepped pyramids of Peloria. Zoria seems like an outlier here. It was founded by an Ulerian priestess who may have come from the east, but the people who lived in area previously were probably a mix of Noyalings, Orlanthi, Arrolians, and other such folk. They seem like more of a melting pot, drawing in all sorts with their many "attractions." 
• The Orlanthi in Fronela intermingled with the Tawari Hsunchen in ancient times, and I imagine there are still many traces of that heritage in their dress, architecture, and art, not to mention their culture and religion. I haven't quite decided what this means yet, other than a lot of bull symbolism. I googled "bronze age Ukraine" and came up with some interesting visuals, particularly of the Cucuteni-Trypillia Culture. This site in particular has some great images, although it's mostly unintelligible in English. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

No idea about the Triolini - too little has been written about them

Is there a god or spirit associated with the octopus? I feel like that would be a prime candidate for “Trickster of the Sea.” Just google the mimic octopus and you’ll see what I mean.

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

Drona the Earth King of western Fronela might have a similarly tolerant position towards Eurmal Friend of Men. The occasional goddess was "blessed" to give birth to a re-incarnation of Eurmal and priestesses of these goddesses may possibly allow some maternal feelings for that offspring.

 

I was just writing some notes/ideas on this particular version of Eurmal. My explanation for why he is a "Friend of Man" is because he is worshiped in freezing cold Fronela, and he is known for stealing fire from Lodril (locally known as Ladaral). I was thinking that in places like Oranor, Junora, or Jonatela, Ladaral and Eurmal worshipers are both socially accepted (or at least tolerated) because of the role they play in keeping people from freezing to death. 

11 hours ago, Psullie said:

its now Saturday and still only one title...

Is this a problem with Drivethrurpg? Are they just... not uploading them for some reason? I also was looking forward to checking these out on Friday. 

13 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Of course SGHV, usual disclaimers apply.

Does that mean “Sandy’s Glorantha Has Varied?”

Something I've been thinking about lately is just how ridiculously little we know about the Kingdom of War. Mysteries are great and all, but someone setting a campaign in Fronela might have to actually interact with these people, so it would help to know more about who they are, even the basic rank-and-file soldiers. 

I was looking at the map in the Guide that has population figures. Their total civilian population is 320K, and there are 100K warriors. That is a huge army! Even Loskalm only fields about 60K soldiers. For the civilians, I would guess that a big chunk of that comes from the conquered cities and their surrounding villages. But what about this obscenely huge army? Did they all show up in the Cursed City when it appeared in 1612? If so, then who are they? Did they come from the Underworld? And if that's the case, are they actually human or demons? I could see some of them being recruited from conquered territory, but keep in mind that the Kingdom has only been expanding since 1612. 

It might be easier to explain if the KoW came into existence right after the Ban started, but reading the Guide it seems like the Cursed City appeared near it's end. With the former scenario, the warriors of the Kingdom would be descended from the various people who lived in or near the Black Forest: Noyalings, Hsunchen, trolls, and maybe some Janubian river folk. I could see how over the course of 100 years, the mysterious leaders of the Cursed City, like Lord Death, Ezdene, and probably some demons, molded these people into a culture of vicious, bloodthirsty warriors. By the time the Ban thaws, they have a massive army and a religion built around their own death gods. But looking at the map of the Syndic's Ban, that doesn't seem right. The area around the Cursed City is relatively small, and it seems unlikely that many Fronelans would have been "trapped" in the region where it appeared (or was "added" to Glorantha, whatever). 

I'm also wondering about the identities of these "100 Death Gods" that the KoW worships. Some of these are likely demons or Chaos entities that Ezdene introduced to the Kingdom's soldiers. Maybe some of the classic death gods are part of the pantheon too? It's unclear how much Chaos plays a role in the KoW's religion. If it's not central to their worship, then I don't see why they wouldn't also worship Humakt, Urox, Zorak Zoran, and Shargash/Vorthan. 

Finally, Sufiazafran's post made me wonder, what actually happened to all the Black Forest trolls? 

5 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

For the moment I am playing the eastern part of the  campaign, centered in Riverjoin, Zoria, Barleygrove, and part of Rathorela. I am trying to stick to the official material as much as I can, adapting it from heroquest, old runequest and magazines, and writing my own stuff only to fill the blanks.

 

Just today actually, I was reading through an article in Tradetalk #15 on Zoria, meant to be used in Hero Wars. There might be some good inspiration there, or material to use. Also, the Swedish edition of RQG will use Fronela as it's default setting, but I don't know any details beyond that (and I can't read Swedish). 

Your campaign sounds epic and very interesting. I like how you bring in the Uz, and also address the question of "what happened to all the Black Forest trolls?" There are still the Xemstown trolls waiting to be released from the Ban too. I'd be curious to know how you see them fitting into your larger narrative. 

5 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

I thought of it as a campaign setting for two reasons, one is that, after much GtG reading,  it seems that the war against war is a confrontation that drags all of fronela into it, rather the fronelnas like or not. So I would like to write three campaigns, one for the south eastern regions, one for the west (centered in Loskalm) and one for the north. Each campaign would be for playing with different cultures, so the western one would be made to play with loskalm/junoran, the northern with uncoling/noyaling/other hsunchen, and the eastern with Zorites/Jonatings/arrolians. The final idea is to create a setting that allows players to play a variety of fronelan cultures starting with easy adventures and gradually introducing them to heroquesting, so if they like, they can pass to the heroquest system after completing one of the paths of the setting. 

 

 The more I looked into Fronelan events of the Hero Wars, the more unclear it became how the Kingdom of War would continue to be involved. We know that Loskalm conquers or otherwise "oppresses" the Arrolian cities, prompting an invasion from Carmania, and later the Lunar Empire. I don't have my books with me so I can't check the dates for these events, but I believe they happen in the 1630's through early 1640's. There's pretty much no mention of the KoW doing anything in the Hero Wars period after it invades Junora and Loskalm. To me it almost seems like Loskalm drives them back to the Black Forest and contains them, or maybe even conquers them by the 1630's. How long do you think your campaign will last through the timeline? Will you use or ignore these future invasions?

The Hsunchen and Orlanthi of Fronela also don't seem to be opposed to the KoW in any big way. The Guide says that both of these regions send mercenaries to join the Warlords. If anything, they seem to hate Loskalm more than the Kingdom. Rather than the KoW dragging the entire region into conflict, it may just be a thing between them and Loskalm, and it may also be resolved pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things. By 1630 even? We don't know, there's a lot of missing information. Honestly it sounds like your ideas about making the Kingdom of War a bigger threat to everyone is more interesting than the current Hero Wars framework anyway. 

Other big threats that you might consider for your other campaigns are the Nameless Man, featured in the prophecy of Kyrmon's Scroll. The Uzhim of Valind's Glacier venturing south to eat stuff. The Aldryami of Rathorela might be attempting some re-seeding in the south. Fronela also seems to have a lot of doors to the Underworld lying around, and you never know when something might try to come through!  

Fronela is still one of my favorite parts of Glorantha, just for the diversity, weirdness, and great story hooks. I've now written campaign outlines taking place in Oranor, Sog City, Rathorela, and Loskalm. . Good luck with your campaign, and keep us posted about what happens! Also, I'd love to see some of the material you've written, hopefully you can get it published.

I decided to throw out some of my old ideas. My current Gerendetho has the Disorder rune instead of Beast. He still has Earth and Fertility, with the Reproduce spell being an important manifestation of Fertility, but his specific goat association mostly comes from Uryarda now. Generally less crazy powerful than before, this feels like a better fit for a more minor, regional cult. I threw out my two original spells, and made up some more new ones! Surefoot is just for kicks. Spear of Gerendetho is a nod to the fight with Granite Man, although it's not nearly as useful for cultists in a fight unless their enemy is below a cliff with a big boulder. Rockslide is supposed to represent the creation of the Jord Mountains, and it's... probably kind of powerful. My metric there was to make it less powerful than Orlanth's Thunderbolt spell, or Maran Gor's Shake Earth, which are comparable in power and dramatic effect. 

Gerendetho (Earth, Fertility, Disorder)

Holy Days – Gerendetho’s High Holy Day is Wildday of Fertility Week, Earth Season. Seasonal holy days are every Wildday of Fertility Week.

Initiate Membership

-          Standard

-          Cult Skills: Climb, Jump, Sing, Dance, Farm, Herd, 1H Spear, 2H Spear

-          Spirit Magic: Detect Life, Heal, Protection, Vigor

-          Favored Passions: Devotion (Gerendetho), Devotion (Hedonism)

Rune Magic

-          Common Rune Magic: All

-          Special Rune Magic: Arouse Passion, Dismiss Earth Elemental (Small), Rockslide, Spear of Gerendetho, Surefoot, Reproduce, Summon Earth Elemental (Small)

-          Enchantments: Ban, Binding Enchantment, Enchant Copper, Magic Point Enchantment, Matrix Creation, Spirit Armor Enchantment

Rune Priest

-          Standard

Associated Cults

-          Lodril – Provides Earthwarm

-          Uryarda – Provides Bless Goats

-          Oria – Provides Earthpower

Spear of Gerendetho (Earth, Disorder)

1 point

Touch, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell is cast on a spear. It causes the blade of the spear to elongate, and take on a rough, stony appearance. The wielder of the spear can now make slashing attacks in addition to impaling attacks. The wielder must have enough room to swing the spear to make slashing attacks, depending on it’s length. Additionally, the spear point now ignores any armor points for stone or rock-like materials, crushing or shattering them on impact. This does not apply to metal or pure minerals like diamond or gemstones. Creatures with stone-like skin or bodies are affected, including gargoyles and jolanti. Gerendetho cultists use this spell to attack walls and other structures, and sometimes to cause rockslides.

Surefoot – (Earth)

1 point

Ranged, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell doubles the caster’s percentage for their Climb and Jump skill, for the duration of the spell.

Rockslide – (Earth, Disorder)

2 points

Ranged, Temporal, Stackable

This spell calls up loose rock and gravel from above the ground, and directs it towards a designated target at great speed. The wave of earth is 5 square meters across, and usually includes small boulders of various sizes. Those struck by the rockslide must first roll DEXx5 to stay standing. If this roll succeeds, the target(s) take 1d6 damage to total hit points. Those knocked prone are carried by the rockslide until it stops, and take 2d6 damage to total hit points. Mundane armor does not protect against this damage, but spells like Shield and Protection will. This spell can be cast on level ground. In that case, the rockslide travels about 30 meters in a straight line before it loses momentum. This spell can only be cast where there are nearby rocks to be called. These can be on the surface, or called from below the earth if not deeper than 3 meters.

Lodril subcult makes sense, especially in Kostaddi. But because Gerendetho doesn’t have any association with the Fire rune, I still feel the need to come up with a whole bunch of different spells for him. Looking at the RQ2 Lodril, almost all of his spells involve fire, including his spear-related one. Not sure how the new Lodril is going to look in GaGoG though. 

Also, I prefer Gerendetho as a son of Lodril in my Glorantha, rather than the big man himself. In general whenever I’m presented  with two similar gods, I tend to interpret them as separate beings. More interesting that way, for me at least. Lodril is often the exception however, cuz that guy gets around.

Thanks for your feedback. I’m planning to use this cult for an upcoming antagonist in our campaign, but I figured I would write it up in more detail just for fun. 

Gerendetho is a fairly minor cult everywhere but Kostaddi it seems, so I guess this would be the Dara Happan version of the cult. I think your take on it as a “cult for adventurers” fits the bill pretty well actually. The HQ1 version paints him as being a more wild, Earth-oriented version of Lodril. In Kostaddi he is somewhat tamed, with his fertility aspects having more importance. But outside the civilized bounds of the empire he is more reckless, feckless, and violent.

His defining myth (his only one really) is his duel with the Granite Man, and his creation of the Hungry Plateau and Jord Mountains. I felt like his spells should reflect his mythic deeds, so he needed a spear-related spell (he fought with a spear, plus, male fertility symbol), and something about creating hills. I found it hard to come up with a good spear spell, because Earth gods generally don’t have access to destructive powers unless they have the Death or Disorder runes. 

19 hours ago, Crel said:

I feel like I don't know if this is meant to represent a major or a minor cult. My gut would say minor cult from what I skimmed in the other thread, but your writeup, to me, presents a cult and deity of a fairly substantial power and quantity of worship

I could probably power him down to reflect his minor status better. He doesn’t really need Heal Body or medium earth elementals. But I don’t feel like a minor cult needs to have weak spells, just less variety than an Orlanth or an Ernalda. 

Okay, maybe this is a less broken take on the Earth Spear idea. Still keeps the idea of HP tied to damage, with less immediate killing or maiming likely to happen to my players. 

Earth Spear (Earth)

3 points

Touch, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell is cast on a spear. While the spell is active, the wielder of the spear adds half of their current hp (rounding up) to any damage rolled. Thus, if the wielder had 16 total hp, they would add 8 to their damage rolls. If their hp were reduced to 4, they would only add 2 bonus damage (minimum bonus of 1). Extra hp granted by spells like Vigor is factored into this bonus. This spell is incompatible with Bladesharp and other damage-enhancing spells.

I started this topic in the Glorantha forum about the cult of Gerendetho, and why it's come up in my campaign. I thought I would post what I have so far on my bare-bones cult write-up. I'm definitely interested in hearing opinions on if the new spells I made up are too powerful, and if so, how they could be nerfed a bit. 

Gerendetho (Earth, Fertility, Beast)

Holy Days – Gerendetho’s High Holy Day is Wildday of Fertility Week, Earth Season. Seasonal holy days are every Wildday of Fertility Week.

Initiate Membership

-          Standard

-          Cult Skills: Climb, Jump, Sing, Dance, Farm, Herd, Peaceful Cut, 1H Spear, 2H Spear

-          Spirit Magic: Befuddle, Detect Life, Heal, Protection, Strength, Vigor

-          Favored Passions: Devotion (Gerendetho), Devotion (Hedonism)

Rune Magic

-          Common Rune Magic: All

-          Special Rune Magic: Arouse Passion, Command Goat, Dismiss Earth Elemental (Small/Medium), Earthpower, Earth Spear, Raise Earth, Reproduce, Summon Earth Elemental (Small/Medium)

-          Enchantments: Ban, Binding Enchantment, Enchant Copper, Magic Point Enchantment, Matrix Creation, Spirit Armor Enchantment

Rune Priest

-          Standard

Associated Cults

-          Lodril – Provides Shield

-          Uryarda – Provides Bless Goats

-          Oria – Provides Heal Body

Earth Spear (Earth)

3 points

Touch, Temporal, Nonstackable

This spell is cast on a spear. While the spell is active, the spear’s normal damage is not rolled. Instead, the damage is always equal to the wielder’s current total hit points. Thus, if the wielder has 15 hit points, their spear strikes always deal 15 hp worth of damage. If they are reduced to 3 hp total, their attacks will only hit for 3 damage. Extra hp gained from spells such as Vigor is not included in the final damage. Damage bonus is not rolled while Earth Spear is active.

Raise Earth (Earth)

2 points

Ranged, Temporal, Stackable

This spell raises up a pillar of bedrock from beneath the ground. The rock explodes upward with considerable force, potentially knocking foes to the ground if summoned beneath their feet. A roll of DEXx5 is required to keep from falling prone in this case. The caster can also choose to raise the ground slowly, however this still causes noticeable rumbling and tremors as the earth shifts. The amount of rock that is raised is a rounded pillar 5 meters tall and 5 meters wide. Additional Rune points add an additional 5 meters in either height or width. This can create walls, support structures, or even entire hills, but the rock cannot be moved or shaped once summoned. This spell affects solid, subterranean rock. It has no effect on soil, clay, or other loose materials. It can only call rock upwards to the surface, it cannot be used to move rocks on the surface or create fissures. Depending on the local landscape, it could be used to cause rockfalls or avalanches.

Edit: Already changed one thing, extra damage from Vigor seems like too much. 

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That said, a quester might go and prove some identities to use local Tada myths to strengthen Gerendetho, but the fact that Tada was slain by Ragnaglar (and remained slain) makes that of limited benefit

Oookay you meant Ragnaglar, I got confused. Lots of goat fathers to go around apparently.

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Gerendetho's Praxian equivalent would have been Tada, only that guy had a fatal encounter with another goat father... He is not a goat-shape(d) deity, however, which makes Hsunchen-like goat body transforms rather unlikely.

Never heard that comparison before, but it’s interesting. are you saying Durbaddath and Basmol are the same?

I'm working on a simple write-up for the cult of Gerendetho in RQG. The reason is because my PC's have ventured into Balkoth country, where they will be tracking down the former king of the tribe, Angtyr of the Horn. In my Glorantha, he has turned bandit since the Dragonrise, and continues to make life miserable for his people by raiding and kidnapping people's daughters (and sons). For details on Angtyr and the Balkoth, I used the Hearts in Glorantha write-up on the tribe. This is a really great article, I recommend it. But it's a little out of date (and canon I suspect). 

Anyway, Gerendetho. In the HiG article, Angtyr is described as having introduced worship of Gerendetho and Uryarda to the tribe, the "Goat Gods." I didn't realize that Gerendetho had anything to do with goats. The Guide describes him as being an Earth/Fertility god, possibly the same being as Turos in Pelanda, or maybe even Genert (this one seems unlikely to me). I then discovered that Gerendetho appears in HQ1, where he has a clear association with goats. Is this still canon? I actually kind of like the HQ1 version of Gerendetho, and I'm considering the goat thing as maybe just a subcult. 

For my cult write-up, I'm not sure what is reasonable to give a Gerendetho follower (or priest). Some spells related to the Earth and Fertility Runes, maybe spears. If Angtyr follows some kind of goat-related subcult, I'm also considering some spells that grant goat features, like horns, climbing up rocks, or eating practically anything. Any thoughts are welcome, and if anyone can offer more insight into Gerendetho, that would also be helpful. 

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I can't remember, are the Waertagi immortal like the Brithini unless they break their caste laws? If so, the number of undead Waertagi would be low, if not then might be higher.

I don’t think it says that anywhere, and I would think their worship of gods prohibits immortality. I was thinking the Waertagi in Hell may have experienced the passage of time differently in the underworld. For them, only a few subjective years, weeks, or even days may have passed. Would you age in the underworld? I thought just being there meant you were effectively dead. 

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

 

Do uh we think the Hell Waertagi are going to be slightly changed by their experience

 

Definitely, but I think how much they are changed depends on if they are the original crews that escaped to Hell in the Second Age, or if they had descendants who have now returned. 
 

Either way they’ve been outside of Time for hundreds of years, but in the first scenario they will have memories of the old world. In the latter scenario they will have only known a lightless world of death, sea monsters, and a diet of whatever they can catch in the Black Ocean, which is likely not healthy or wholesome. 

I prefer the the returnees being the same people from the Second Age, because otherwise it means the Waertagi as they are described in the Guide are truly extinct. All that remain are sad maroons and crazy Hell people. I mean... Hell people are cool too I guess. 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those who survived on the surface may not necessarily share the zeal of their hell-respawned brethren (which is one reason why I thought that the Beysib in Refuge would be Waertagi if you played that setting in Glorantha).

 

The Waertagi in Edrenlin have been trying to repair their ships, which suggests that they seek to return to the old lifestyle of their people. The people in Sog City may be a different story. They have no dragon ships to repair, and they have been stuck there since the Second Age. We don't know exactly how or why the Waertagi ended up permanently in Sog. My assumption was that there were always some of them there between voyages. When the Jrusteli took control of Sog City, it was their own bad luck that they happened to be there then. I think this was around 725 (p. 133 GtG) when the Kingdom of Frontem was founded. 900 or so years is a very, very long time to be stuck in one place. Their culture, language, and beliefs have probably diverged a lot. The original way of life to the Sog Waertagi has likely become the stuff of legend.

In the 1600's I can imagine that some young folks would jump at the chance to join their legendary brethren on the high seas. But it's just as easy to imagine some crusty old elders adopting an attitude of, "This is the only home we've ever known! It may be cold, it may be ruled by despotic OCD wizards, but it's home and we're not leaving!" 

I'm wondering what the culmination of the whole "Cult of the Ship and the City" plot hook is supposed to be (p. 215 GtG). This must have something to do with the underworld Waertagi coming back. They have dragon ships, and they need a dry-dock. They may be the ones responsible for all the recurring dreams and visions. The pessimistic explanation is that they also need sacrificial victims to find lost Brithos, and they end up getting most of them from Sog City. 

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Nothing is ever going to come out of Magasta's Pool - hopefully, as that is where the Chaos Rift is sealed in. The Waertagi re-emerge on Sramak's River, possibly around the same place that connects to Lorion's celestial river (described in Eleven Lights). That's where Umiliath re-emerged, the biggest of the Firebergs remaining after the Battle of Tanian's Victory.

 

I admit that I can't find any reference to ships sailing out of the whirlpool. I just thought that was the only way to get from the Black Ocean to the surface. I'm fuzzy on my mythic geography. 

It's probably safe to assume that by 1625, or whenever the Waertagi actually come back, there is more than one dragon ship floating around, and a small fleet of Fastships for each one. 

Re-reading the Waertagi section in the Guide has been interesting, because it gives a lot of detail on how they actually fight at sea. They seem to rely heavily on magic, and using allies like sea monsters, elementals, and merfolk. At first I was thinking that a massive city ship would not be very useful in a naval engagement, but when you consider that the ship itself is a very potent magical resource (enslaved dragon spirit), it makes more sense. Still, if the Waertagi have any kind of weakness, it seems to be that their Fastships are kind of flimsy, and they may or may not have siege weapons fitted to their ships. 

34 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't there some overall Hero Wars plot with the Waertagi recruiting a bunch of non-Waertagi allies and the murdering them to finish some kind of ritual? I seem to remember that from somewhere.

Same page in the Guide, that’s apparently how they find Brithos and bring the Brithini back to the mundane world. Bunch of jerks.