Gallowglass

Lately I've been thinking about the Waertagi, and the overall role that they will play in the Hero Wars. Most of my info on their big comeback is from the Guide, p. 424 in the Seshnela chapter. This little section describes a naval conflict with Nolos and Pasos, and then implies a bigger struggle with the Wolf Pirates later on. Their reappearance in Glorantha will obviously shake things up, I'm just wondering how much. Here are my more specific questions-

How many dragon ships, and smaller vessels, return from Magasta's Pool? Is it just one? Several? I remember reading that more than one went down the whirlpool when the Closing happened. It seems unlikely that they would have built more during their stay in the Underworld, but who knows. Anything can happen down there! 

Following that question about ships, what does the overall population of returned Waertagi look like? The have essentially been on a prolonged heroquest on the Black Ocean for hundreds of years. Maybe none of them have aged since then, or maybe there are new generations that were born in the darkness. I kind of prefer the former option for some reason. 

What does the Waertagi's return mean for Sog City? My understanding was that they were the original rulers, and the Brithini were allied caretakers. I think the Guide also implies that the people in Sog will have repaired the old dry-dock by the time the Waertagi come back. Their return is also presumably a really BIG deal for Sog's own Waertagi population. These poor schmucks have been stranded in the city for... basically a millennium. Now their legendary kinfolk have returned with actual dragon ships. Most of them will probably want to leave and join their people. 

Finally, what does the return of the Waertagi mean for the other naval powers in Glorantha? We know the Wolf Pirates will clash with them, but what about the Esrolians? Fonrit and Umathela? In ancient times, they sought total control and dominance of the oceans, so I assume that their goal would be to re-establish that dominance. 

In my Glorantha, I've decided that Caladraland also has a native population of intelligent apes and gorillas. Like baboons in Prax, they sometimes serve as mercenaries or guards for local chieftains or merchants. The only place I can remember Genertelan gorillas actually being referenced in the Guide is in Teshnos, but why not in the Holy Country too? There's jungles, mountains, people need gorillas to intimidate their enemies, etc.

Are there any restrictions on local setting or timeline for published content? I know it has to be Glorantha, but does it have to be Dragon Pass or Prax? 

25 minutes ago, JanPospisil said:

I wouldn't mind more info, if you were willing to type it out, or reference to related material. (like "this is that culture, similar to these cultures", present in this official/unofficial art etc.)

My main source is Esrolia: Land of 10000 Goddesses, page 8 has a good description. The Kimantorings are the regular army of Esrolia. The Esrolians are technically an Orlanthi culture, so the style of their weapons and armor is probably similar, maybe more ornate. 

They used to be the Only Old One’s household guards, and were originally trolls. Nowadays they are mostly humans, and worship many different war gods. But some do worship Argan Argar and Zorak Zoran even though they’re human, so when I made my request I was imagining one of those weirdos. 

1 minute ago, JanPospisil said:

Did one those in the past: https://www.deviantart.com/merlkir/art/GtG-02-The-Holy-Country-338901818

Oh yeah, whoops! I forgot that was you. Ok, how about a Kimantoring warrior from Esrolia? I think they worship different gods now, but originally it was the Only Old One. They also wield spears and shields, and would be heavily armored. I would imagine  they have a strong Darkness motif, potentially with black armor and shields. Since the Kitori wore lead masks, maybe these warriors do as well. To look scary and whatnot. 

How ‘bout a Caladralander spearman? Just a big oaf with a large spear, tasseled wrap-around skirt, lots of tattoos. He would worship Veskarthen, the volcano god. 

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

But since you're brave there was also syRANOR here once. All these refractions of the primal patriarch, cut up and rearranged across history and then shuffled in the Ban.

Dammit I was already confused before this!

Evidence seems to suggest that Oran probably was a mythological figure, rather than a historical one. I also prefer the theory about Drona and Oran being the same person.

It is definitely weird that Oranor doesn't show up on the historical maps until 1450, since the city of Oreanor has apparently existed since the Dawn Age. My reasoning for that is that the city's guardian, the Copper Man, was "placed there" around that time (GtG p. 216). Perhaps the city of Oreanor existed as a center for the cult of Oran, rediscovered by Theyalans in the Dawn Age, and then increased it's influence enough by 1450 that it could claim dominion over the other cities in the region that shared it's culture and religion: Agnara, Kikina, Greystone Fort, and Ulros. 

The pantheon that includes Oran may have been consolidated during the Ban. Before it happened, I could see the other cities being more Junoran in character. 

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

The first Orlanthi King in Fronela is Dakal, who ruled in the city of Ayos in what is now Syanor.  Although the historical maps are silent on what is happening among the Fronelan barbarians circa 700 ST, Oranor as a Kingdom does not appear until the 1450 ST which means it was known before the Ban.  Prior to that it seems to have been part of Junora and Jonatela which suggest exposure to Malkioni elements and mythology.

 

I wonder about where the people of Junora trace their descent? Their language is a Theyalan one. The modern Junorans and people of Oranor seem different only in that the latter are described as "traditionalist Orlanthi." It's also worth noting that the area was (according to the maps) controlled by the kingdom of Frontem in the Second Age, so that almost certainly means exposure to Malkionism. 

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

On the other hand, the Kings of Oranor claim to have an unbroken heritage dating back to the late first age (Guide p216).  I think the kings here should refer to the tribal kings as any claim of unbrokenness is implausible for any High King.  My current thinking is that the worship of Oran was developed during the Modern Age to unite the tribes.  

 

This is certainly possible. As Oreanor is described as the capitol of the confederation, I would think that this is where the center of the cult is, and where the current high king resides. 

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

There's nothing stopping King Oran from being a Dawn Age demigod. There's a few of them running around.

Very true, and if that were the case it would make my attempts to create a history of Oranor much easier. 

Another thing about the Frona entry in the Sourebook is that she was guarded by High King Elf while she slept through the darkness, and the people of Oranor are friends with the Erontree aldryami. This is probably not a coincidence?

I have some questions about Oranor, which is a kingdom detailed on p. 216 of the GtG. I consider Oranor to be a good place to set a campaign, due to it's superficial similarity to Sartar. It is (seemingly) a tribal confederation loosely tied together by an over-king, where prospective player characters could enjoy the sandbox danger and heroics of Orlanthi clan life, and not have to worry too much about epic plots and earth-shaking conflicts. Up until now, I've assumed that Oranor is culturally made up of Orlanthi people who settled from the east in the Dawn Age, and mixed with the local Enjoreli tribes. Among other gods and heroes, they worship "Oran, the first king, and his wife Frona, the land goddess." I assumed that "the first king" meant that Oran was the founder of the dynasty that rules Oranor, and that they worship him the same way Sartarites worship Sartar. His marriage to Frona may have occurred within Time, like Arim the Pauper's marriage to Sorana Tor, or as a heroquest. 

But today I looked up Frona in the Glorantha Sourcebook, just to see if there was anything interesting about her mythology. That book mentions (p. 92) that the "demigod" Oran wooed and married her and became "King of Fronela." Then it says that she was defeated by Valind in the Darkness, and reawakened by the Theyalans at the Dawn. This seems to imply that Oran married Frona in the God-Time, which sinks my other theory and opens up a whole slew of other questions. If Oran is part of the mythological cycle, who is he? Where did he come from? Why is he worshiped in Oranor and seemingly nowhere else? Also, if Oran isn't the Dawn Age founder of the kingdom, then what is the true history of that region? Some people have posited that all of the Orlanthi people in Fronela are actually Enjoreli/Tawari that adopted the Lightbringer faith in the Dawn Age. I believe they are a mix of Enjoreli and Theyalans migrating west. But both of those models don't explain why Oran and Frona are so important to that area.

Does anyone have any thoughts or insight on this problem? Sorry, I know this is an incredibly obscure topic. 

28 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

And then the Dragon rises right amidst their lands. Lunars gone. Enstalos leaders gone. But the old Dundealos leadership is probably all gone too. And those that maybe worked with Argrath see him as someone who might have some power to help them.

In our campaign, the old Dundealos leaders are indeed gone. The clan we created is half Pol-Joni deciding to resettle, half exiles of the old clan, some of whom don't even remember Sartar. 

32 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Think of what happened to the Dundealos. In 1618, the Lunars trigger a rebellion there and then destroy it.  Many of the Dundealos are sent as slaves to work on the new Lunar Temple.  The tribe becomes the pro-Lunar Enstalos. Then the Crimson Bat comes and you know it's not the Enstalos leaders being fed to the bat! And then the Great Winter comes, and the pro-Lunar clans survive the best, at least until 1622.  And while the Culbrea rise against the Lunars, this area remains firmly under Lunar control while the Lunar Temple moves towards completion 3 years later. Kallyr is doing nothing for them - she's off raising the Boat Planet. Broyan is nowhere near.  But there is this fellow Argrath and maybe he can help them overcome the Lunars.

 

This all makes perfect sense. I think I just had a moment at some point where I realized, "wait, the tribe is nicknamed the Jaldonkillers!" But at the same time, I can see how the new, traumatized generation of Dundealos would see things differently. Knowing my players, and how they play their characters, they will probably will go fight in the Battle of the Queens, because they hate the Lunar Empire, and don't have any particularly strong feelings about Kallyr (it's the one Passion they all share). 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The only westward migration in the books is that of the Vathmai into Slontos, south of Ralios rather than north of it. Other councilic settlers enter northern Ralios through Kartolin Pass after the Battle of Zebrawood, again probably of Heortling (or Esrolian) origin rather than Talastaring (at the Dawn, the Heortlings outnumber the Talastarings 10 to 1).

 

The more I re-read the relevant sections of the Guide, the more I can understand your theory. But I feel like if all the Orlanthi people of Jonatela, Oranor, Charg and the Janube river were originally Tawari, who were a Hsunchen culture, there would be more of an indication for that than the occasional reference to riding bulls. There clearly was some mingling of cultures going on, but there was also a lot of war and conflict between the Hsunchen and the Talsardians. It's unclear in the Guide, but it seems just as likely that the Orlanthi of Fronela could have conquered and assimilated the Tawari, and resettled their lands in the west. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I have a lot less of an idea what went on in modern Doblian satrapy prior to Sheng's invasion. Fortunate Succession leaves this area out of its focus most of the time. We have a few military units with some history from the region, including the Doblian Dog-Eaters, and we have the Eel-ariash story originating here. The rest is just local color.

Did the natives here join the Council prior to the Dara Happans, or as part of their empire? After the retreat of the horse warlords, the Dara Happans needed a while to consolidate their footman power before spreading out this far east.

There are native deities like Arakang and Orogeria or Sakkar which are not that different from Odayla, yet they appear to have been inside the Pelorian fold rather than the Theyalan one. Was the Suvarian Lodrili inheritance that strong?

I'm not really sure how all this connects. I've looked at the Dawn Age maps quite a bit to get a sense of the local history, and the region of Doblian looks it's part of the Dara Happan Empire from 265 onwards. When I originally mentioned Pelorian or Pelandan gods, I meant the weird outliers like Ladaral (Lodril), Vorthan (Shargash), and Ganestos (probably GanEstoro). 

Not wanting to derail the thread, I agree that the Tawari form a big part of Fronela's Orlanthi heritage. That's probably where the bull-riding comes in. But that same page in the Guide describes the kingdom of Talsardia as a distinct, separate entity from the Hsunchen. They are "ruled by an Orlanthi dynasty from Brolia and their Praxian allies." Where do these people come from if not Dorastor or Talastar? I admit that if it's Dorastor, they may not be culturally Talastari at all, but have Heortling customs instead, or a mix thereof. I'm confused about these "bull-Orlanthi" you describe. Did they exist in the Dawn Age, or is this a term you use to represent the modern people in the region? 

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

They are re-establishing themselves in the Dundealos Valley. And as Pol-Joni, many of them already pledged themselves to Argrath White Bull. 

Okay, as long as I have your attention, one more question. Why would the Pol-Joni and Dundealos trust Argrath if he resurrected Jaldon, their ancestral enemy? This has been an issue in our campaign, and most of my players look at Argrath as a dangerous guy. I’ve dropped heavy hints that he is returning to Sartar with an army, and they think this is bad news. 

Thanks for the response Jeff. Any insight into why the Dundealos tribe would not fight at the Battle of Queens? By 1626 I imagine they’re still relatively weak (they are in our campaign). But they are also strongly anti-Lunar, and I would think most of them support Kallyr. 

I'll be starting up my campaign again soon after a short hiatus. We are entering Fire Season of 1626, which means the Battle of Queens is coming up. My players took part in the last big battle at Dangerford, in which many of the tribes of Sartar joined in. I'm going to give them the option of joining this next fight as well, but the situation is slightly different. According to various sources, only four tribes join in at the Battle of Queens: the Malani, the Colymar, the Cinsina and the Culbrea. I assume the Kheldon participate as well, since Kallyr is still their tribal queen. But 8 other tribes refuse to answer the call, including the PC's own tribe, the Dundealos. It seems weird to me that so many other tribes sit this one out, when the Tarshites are bringing some of their best to reclaim Sartar. 

I understand that many of the tribes are upset with Kallyr since her failed Lightbringer's Quest, which has brought Chaos, bad omens, and conflict to the kingdom. But presumably everyone also knows that she failed because Lunar assassins interfered and murdered most of her family. I've also seen it referenced in various places (like the Sourcebook and Vasana's Saga) that Kallyr is not trusted or respected by many of the tribes. Yet they still chose her as Prince after the Dragonrise. Is this mistrust simply because she failed in her last rebellion? Do people hate her so much that nearly two thirds of the people in the kingdom won't help her to defend Sartar from a Lunar army, clearly a major threat? Is Kallyr Starbrow basically the Hillary Clinton of Dragon Pass?

My other question concerns the aftermath of the battle. It is mentioned that Sartar degenerates into various "squabbling factions" after Kallyr's death, but I don't have a very clear picture of what this looks like. Vasana's saga implies that Leika burned the Prince's body as a move to encourage the other tribes to choose her as the next Prince. She is definitely the most powerful tribal leader. Are there any other sources about this period between the Battle of Queens, and Argrath's coming in 1627?

We're looking at a period of about 4-5 seasons, which I now know can mean at least 5-10 sessions in RQG. That's plenty of room to build some adventures out of political conflict. I'm curious about how Sartar functions (or doesn't function) as kingdom without a Prince. Are there any other claimants who try to become Prince, other than Leika? Do we see any armed conflicts between tribes during this period? Leika does not succeed obviously, but how hard does she push to become Prince before Argrath shows up? 

For the Dundealos tribe and their clans, I would think the logical course during this period would be to strengthen relations with their Swenstown confederates, plus the Pol-Joni, and give the finger to Leika and other tribes in Sartar. She and the Colymar haven't done much to earn their respect, and the problems they have to deal with regularly (Praxians, Chaos incursions from the east, trade and diplomacy with Pavis), likely don't mean much to her. 

Any answers or insights will help me to plan the next parts of our campaign. Apologies for asking a lot of questions (again). 

The question of the Talastarings' origin is interesting to me, because I've been trying to understand the historical/mythic roots of the Orlanthi peoples in Fronela. From what I understand, they all descend from Talastaring clans that gradually migrated north and west in the Dawn Age, and formed their own kingdoms. First there was Somaria (modern-day Anadikki and Brolia), then Talsardia (modern-day Charg). It's interesting to consider that in addition to all the other weird crap that Fronelan Orlanthi do like riding bulls and worshiping some Pelorian/Pelandan gods, they may have different core traditions as well that set them apart from the Heortlings. 

29 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Mask and Clever Hands both work. With Clever Hands you should include Devise.

I thought of including Devise, but it didn’t seem appropriate for a Stone Age people. In retrospect though, traps and snares are still Stone Age technology, so, sure. 

How 'bout this? With the Mask effect, it feels like Invisibility and Lie are somewhat unnecessary. 

Lotara (Raccoon - Beast, Illusion, Disorder)

• Raccoon Tail (Body, doubles DEX for duration of spell)
• Mask (Head, similar to Become [other shape], take the shape of any human, takes an hour to cast while studying a target)
• Clever Hands (Limbs, doubles skill percentage in Search and Sleight)
• Clever Tongue

Sure, all I've done so far is lay out which Rune spells each totem spirit would grant. I think each of them probably would teach some unique spirit magic too, but I'm not there yet. 

All the totem spirits would grant the following common Rune spells: Divination, Extension 2, Multispell 2, Sanctify,  Soul Sight, Spirit Block 2. All totem spirits also grant Speak to (totem animal). So Rathori can speak to bears, Uncolings speak to reindeer, etc. Finally, each spirit has access to the spell Transform Self from Hykim and Mikyh. 

• Bear Spirits (same spells as Odayla, plus the following)
  • Irgar (Beast) - Command Bear
  • Irdag (Beast, Darkness) - Dark Walk
  • Orenrar (Beast, Moon) - Madness
• Uncoli (Reindeer - Beast)
  • Antlers (Provides a spirit block+countermagic effect, extra attack when stacked with Transform Self)
  • Reindeer Legs (Increased speed/agility skills)
  • Reindeer Hide (natural armor+resistance to cold)
• Kloisar (Badger - Beast, Earth)
  • Badger Head (Bite attack)
  • Burrowing Claws (Claw attacks, allows rapid burrowing)
  • Badger Musk (Store use of 1 spirit magic spell in a location marked with scent glands or urine. This is why they cover themselves in piss )
• Zonat (Porcupine - Beast)
  • Identify Scent
  • Claws
  • Quills (Provides natural armor, successful parry with Grapple skill deals damage to attacker)
  • Shoot Quills (Must be stacked with Quills, grants a short ranged attack skill)
• Sabadar (Wolverine - Beast)
  • Wolverine Head (Bite attack)
  • Claws
  • Wolverine Hide (Natural armor+cold resistance)
  • Berserker
• Rinkon (Bobcat - Beast, Air)
  • Catseye
  • Charisma (Body)
  • Claws (Limbs)
  • Identify Scent (Head)
• Lotara (Raccoon - Beast, Illusion, Disorder)
  • Invisibility (Body)
  • Catseye (Head)
  • Strike (Limbs)
  • Lie
• Akkar (Skunk - Beast, Fertility)
  • Musk Spray (Short ranged attack, nauseate enemies with your stench!)
  • Identify Scent (Head)
  • Charisma (Body)
  • Claws (Limbs)
• Flara (Black Owl - Beast, Darkness)
  • Wings (Body, grants a fly skill)
  • Catseye (Head)
  • Dark Walk
  • Talons (Limbs, similar to claws but it affects the feet, and uses Kick skill)
• Hogar (Mammoth - Beast, Earth)
  • Mammoth Tusks (Head, extra attack)
  • Mammoth Hide (Natural armor+SIZ, resistance to cold)
  • Stomp (Limbs, similar to Shake Earth spell)

I believe the Rathori people also worship lesser bear spirits, including Irgar (brown bear), Irdag (black bear) and Orenrar (blue bear). In the White Bear’s absence, these spirits may have taken on more importance. Or maybe Rathor was a more distant spirit in the first place, and the other bear spirits were closer to their worshippers. 

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

Can the White Bear still grant magic to his worshippers? Did the cult function as a spirit cult that gave shapechanging spells like Odayla?

Everything I’ve seen on beast spirit cults in previous editions makes me think this is the case. I’ve written up some sample cults for the Fronelan Hsunchen in RQG, and I used Odayla as a model. 

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The official line is that "pure" sorcerers aren't intended as adventurers in Dragon Pass or the Holy Country, let alone Prax. But nor are Ompalam cultists, Godunya cultists, Daruda cultists, or Garangordos cultists for that matter. You can include them in your game, but their magical ecology is going to be very different from those belonging to cults like Orlanth, Humakt, Seven Mothers, or Storm Bull. Or even Lhankor Mhy or Irrippi Ontor, both of who are tightly connected to more traditional "adventurer" cults.

 

Fair enough. I don't expect my players will meet any Malkioni sorcerers in our current game in Dragon Pass, unless they decide to go down to the Holy Country. Lunar sorcerers on the other hand...

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

So basically David's complaint is that Gloranthan sorcerers make lousy adventurers. I agree for the most part. LM sorcerers work (I've now seen enough in play) because they are using their sorcery to enhance their information gathering abilities. Same thing with Irrippi Ontor sorcerers - they are largely using it to enhance their core abilities (and that Discern Lightfore spell can be surprisingly useful). But these cults aren't pure sorcerers - they are just replacing their (rather lame) spirit magic with sorcery.

Pure sorcerers - by that I assume you mean Rokari or Loskalmi wizard - aren't intended to be adventurers (especially given that the Invisible God is not even detailed at this point). Its RuneQuest, so yes, you can play them (just like you can play a malfunctioning dwarf or a rootless elf) but you are swimming upriver. That's not that the RQG sorcery rules are problematic, but that you seem to have a different view of what sorcerers are than the writers of the setting and the game.  

My original post touched on the idea of (someday) running a campaign in the West, specifically Loskalm. This sort of campaign is what I had in mind when I raised the topic. I feel like sorcery is part of what makes the Western culture unique, so it's a little disappointing to hear the official line that "pure" sorcerers aren't supposed to be playable as adventurers. Lots of folks have shared great ideas about creating homebrew sorcery rules, (thank you!) and I think that's the direction I'm moving in. My Glorantha may have to vary in this case.

I am still curious if Jeff has any insight about what kind of magic a Loskalmi Man-of-All uses in battle. If the Seshnelan horali and talars potentially have access to Rune magic, and supportive spells from their zzaburi, that would balance them very well against their enemies (Ralians I guess). Do the Loskalmi have Rune magic as well? 

6 hours ago, Crel said:

I haven't tried it out in a game yet, but one idea I had was to let sorcerers develop cantrips based on a spell they knew, using the spell research rules. A cantrip would be a set formula for a sorcery spell, that they can't manipulate. Casts at spirit magic speed on INTx5 (instead of POW like spirit magic--just gotta remember the damn thing as quick as you can), fills one Free INT, and always costs its exact MP. So you don't have to wait three rounds to cast Finger of Fire strength 5 (7MP, 3 base + 4 levels of intensity in strength) and be ready to go when the fight's already over. A sorcerer would probably have to have mastered all associated techniques/Runes to develop a cantrip, and maybe a max casting% of their % in the base spell (otherwise you'd just develop a bunch of cantrips to cast at INTx5 and never bother working on spell improvement).

This seems like an elegant solution. There are some sorcery spells that would be very useful even at their lowest intensity, like Mend Flesh or Finger of Fire.