Kloster

The problem is even there you can get things to crash during editing; I can think of several products for lines I used to follow that didn't show that the author understood the rules that well at all. But so many game companies have, at best, very limited editorial staff that this sort of thing can slip through all too easily.

Exemples? :innocent:

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Kloster

Its a bit more obvious if you look at the Worlds of Wonder version; the way certain powers were structured, the free side ability with various energy blasts, and so on.

OK (Just checked), but, for me, this is not as visible as the Champions influence.

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Kloster

I suspect he was thinking more in terms of U.S. regionalism.

:innocent:

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Kloster

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OGL did what is was supposed to do for WotC. It turned around the trend in RPGing and made D&D/D20 the predominant system again. Practically any company that is writing good D20 stuff was writing good or better non-D20 stuff before OGL.

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It already WAS the dominant force, even before OGL!

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OGL won't help BRP much, since the majority of RPGers don't give a squat about BRP anyway. And most D&Ders don't look at and buy non D20 products.

True, even if Mongoose tries hard to push the other way.

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Kloster

Ironically, this is sort of a side thread of a side thread. The idea being that one of the advantages of closed systems is that you can see what you are buying before you buy, where as with PDFs and many third party products, you are forced to buy blind.

I wonder what other regional differences might exist in RPGing?

Language?

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Kloster

Even if I don't like RQM, they at least propose official HeroQuesting rules for RQ, a point Chaosium and AH never managed to cover.

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Kloster

Yeah Chaosium blew it badly. But not with RQ2 or OGL. What killed RQ was letting some other company, namely Avalon Hill, have control over the RQ line, and then the long string of reprinted material. Five years of Glorantha reprints at a time when all the Glorantha fans wanted to see how the HeroWars were going to turn out. The Fantasy Earth line was variable quality (Vikings was good, Ninja was not). When AH started writing their own RQ stuff is when I stopped buying all RQ products. Eldarad was worse than the stuff Mongoose churns out. So it wasn't keeping the property closed that killed RQ, it was not keeping it closed enough.

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As far as I understood, AH never controlled the editorial line on RQIII. Chaosium retained it.

But I agree on the quality comments!

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Kloster

I would rather give such special weapons like rapiers a simple bonus on initiative (like +3) and maybe a lower STR, higher DEX requirement, but not a damage bonus. Ever seen the movie Rob Roy?

If you like it more complex you can maybe introduce fencing with rapiers as "style" like martial arts. (as Nightshade I guess has already proposed) or use some advanced riposte rules.

As an ex-fencer (foil and epee), I woleheartedly agree.

'Land of Ninja' proposes a kind of rules for that with the ki-skills.

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Kloster

I think your missing some stuff for Marvel and DC. DC did release some adventures, and I own at least 3 supplements. Likewise there were more products for Marvel.

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As I explained, from France were Super Hero rpg never managed to succeed, I never managed to get more. That does not mean those companies never produced anything else. I know for instance that Silver Age Sentinels had quite a number of extensions, bu I never managed to get hand on one.

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I think TSR Mavel probably outsold it through. Marvel and DC had an advantage in being able to use their own universes. Since most Super gamers read comics that is a telling edge.

For the figures, I don't know, but for the analysis, I agree.

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Kloster

GURPS SUPERS and Heroes Unlimited

Both systems badly needed an non-lethal combat option, but didn't get one. Our group got the message when I started wondering why my hero character was toting around an SMG.

HU's "one power" rule probably made it the worst supers RPG. THe pwers didn't balance, and as the game was combat driven, and fights ended with someone dead/dying, the result was a very, very bloody RPG. Too bloody for the genre.

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Agree!!!

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Yeah, were talking about the same Golden Heroes.

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There was also an alternate version similar to V&V that broke up powers by type, better fitting certain concepts.

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Mine was a blue box, A4, about 5 to 7 cm height.

It seems from your descriptions it was the 2nd.

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Actually character creation wasn't that bad, since you have to justify your powers with your origin story. You got some extra powers, but were expected to drop some. With a good GM and players, character creation worked.

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Yeah, true. Magic, energy projection, HTH Attack and Bionic brain (if I remember well what I rolled up around 20 years ago).

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GH played very well and had some nice ideas. For one thing, it allowed a thug to be able to actually kill a civilian with a single shot, something that was tough in most other hero RPGs at the time.

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Yes, and I like it.

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GH also had some neat stuff, like the campaign ratings, that helped to flesh out things. I also liked the HTC/HTK way of handling damage much better than the methods used in Champions or Superworld.

I would not say it worked better than in Champions, but it worked well.

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Kloster

Not really. While Champions had an influence there was as much influence from V&V on it; in fact, the origin of Superworld was an attempt to take V&V and BRP-ize it, according to Steve Perrin.

This I have read, but I think the Champions influence is more clear (The point system for buying powers, with advantages and limitations, forex).

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Kloster

I'd argue that wasn't a bad scenario, just a specialized one; it did a pretty good job with the teen heroes genre of the time, but if that wasn't what you were after...

Even for a very specialized one, I found it bad.

It's true I've never been a fan of teen heroes, but this one ...

Almost the only one I find acceptable are the one about the Something Academy, for Champions New millenium (the one using Fuzion system).

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Kloster

I think there was maybe one supplement for Superworld. Most of the superhero RPGs did have supplements printed for them, though. The best supported were the first Marvel and DC rpgs, not surprisingly.

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No, Champions wins, no question asked, for the best support and the sheer amount of products.

Even if, from France, I never had the ability to see all the production on the subject, here is what I saw or have (in addition to rules):

- Superworld - 3 products.

- Villains and Vigilantes (FGU): Around 10 scenarii I do have.

- MSH (TSR) and Advanced (Sic) MSH: 5 sextensions and around 20 scenarii.

- DC Heroes (Mayfair Games) : 3 extensions.

- Golden Heroes (Games Workshop) : 2 Introductory scenarii (excellent).

- Heroes unlimited (Palladium) : 1 extensions.

- Champions (Hero Games) : more than 30 Scenarii and more than 50 extensions.

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Kloster

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IMO, the worst fits are probably GURPS (which really breaks down, as it tries to be grittier than BRP), and Palladium (no non-lethal combat, so people don't drop unless dead or dying, making most heroes mass murderers).

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I never saw a better assassination attempt on GURPS Super and Heroes Unlimited (that was the name). How true.

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Superworld was in fact Champions, 2nd ed system for managing powers tacked on BRP.

It was one that part badly done and prone to breaking (we tried and succeded successfuly at that time when we were quite powerplayers):

With champions, the active cost is divided by 1+(sum of limitations) to get the real cost, which drives a reduction of efficiency each time you add a limitation.

With superworld, you get a price break of n 6th of the price for each limitation, which means that if you get 6 1/6th limitations (or 3 1/3rd limitations), the power cost becomes ... ZERO, and you could get all the powers of the book at an infinite level for free.

At that time, a friend of mine discovered that. We were already more inclined to used Champions and, in addition with the lack of support from Chaosium, that was the crippling blow. We stopped using Superworld because some players were unstoppable.

Another problem was that the number of power points was to be equal to the total sum of characteristics, which could drive to stupid characters, just to have the right amount of power points.

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Kloster

Yeah, it all depended on your mindset at the onset. DC heroes are severely overpowered in my book. I find Marvel heroes more plausabily in my mind.

If you tried to re-create a comic book hero with Superworld, then you would run into issues. However, if you created a hero from scratch within the Superworld rules framework, then you can create some really cool heroes.

If your's is the 1st ed of DC Heroes, you're getting pre-crisis characters, which are GROSSLY overpowered. If I remember well, Superman's strength was 50, as a normal one was 2, and each increment was a doubling. That meant 48 doubling, or 2 power 48 times the normal strength.

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Kloster

I think you are on to something there. BRP with its nitty gritty realistic approach does not really fit well as an enginge for toon-like superhero gaming. Were there ever any published scenarios for Superworld or any of the other superhero games?

SGL.

- 1 scenario pack called 'Bad medicine for Dr Drugs', which is for a teen hero campaign (not good, compatible with Champions, 2nd Ed and Villains and Vigillantes)

- a second scenario book called 'Trouble for H.A.V.O.C', which contained 3 scenarii, one of them clearly drawn from Cthulhu mythos.

Plus Superworld companion (additional rules, conversion for champions, and some other things)

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Kloster

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Who else but a gamer can hold discussions on mythology, ballistics, use Einstein's theory of relativity to work out the energy output of a photon torpedo, and know the difference between Lorica Segementata and CHOBHAM? :shocked:

Hey Atgxtg, some of us also went to school!!!

But globally, I think you're right.

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Kloster

Hello,

First of all, count me in favor of fixed armor+localization table.

One house rule we used (with RQ) to solve the problem of having some armor (like plate) that are difficult to go over, but don't absorb damage well once they are overcome was to add a Damage Threshold to each type of armor.

If I remember well, for plate, DT was 10 but AV (Armor Value) was only 6. If damage is less than 11, nothing goes through. If damage is over 10, only 6 is substracted to damage.

I'm sorry, but at that time, the computer I had was using an odd format floppies and I can't read them anymore so I don' have access to all the values we ended to use.

The system worked well for RQ, but we never used it for other settings, so I have no idea to the in play results it would bring with firearms.

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Kloster

Hello,

As I don't have SB5, I can't check!

Will the combat skills be Attack/Parry (like RQ) or same skill for both (like SB1)?

Is the skill the same for all weapons in same category (like RQ III, same skill for all 1H axes) or different skill for each weapons (like CoC)?

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Kloster

Welcome to the board Kloster!

Have you heard anything about the licensed french BRP game we hear rumours about?

SGL.

No, Nothing. The last french game using BRP I heard (and saw) something about was Nephilim (by Multisim), and it was years ago.

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Kloster

Hi,

Kloster here, newbie to the forum but not to BRP.

Apparently the 1st frenchie here on this topic.

40 years old, father of 1 1/2, 26 of roleplaying, 23 of BRP:

started with RQII, then Cthulhu, RQIII, then some iterations of SB and Hawkmoon.

Other roleplaying include D&D (there must be a start, and in France in 1981, no choice), Champions (3, 4 and 5), JB007, Shadowrun, Vampire, Traveller, plus some other.

Avid RQ fan since the begining.

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Kloster