Ladygolem

Can I say @ZedAlpha I love how you've embraced the wild and creative side of Glorantha so whole heartedly, it's really inspiring! It's easy to get bullied out of having a fun experience by "you're playing your elfgames wrong!" crowd and it's super cool how you haven't let that happen Your campaign sounds super awesome!

21 minutes ago, davecake said:

It is obviously of use to both the Lunars and the Yelm worshippers, as both cults have both the Life and Death runes (and Life and Death related magic)

Isn't Yelm Fire/Sky (twice), Mastery, Stability?

19 minutes ago, Darius West said:

There is something called egregious munchkinery...

 

Munchkinry is trying to abuse the rules to inflate stats or do silly or unreasonable things - a far cry from just wishing for some agency in their own character's story! One disrupts the building of narrative - the other strengthens it.

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I like this idea! In absence of metal, the second one could also be substituted for the pottery kiln, for example.

Good point, I'd thus amend my post to have the metaphor for the second fire be the firing of soft clay (farmers and herders) into hard pottery (warriors), something along those lines...

7 hours ago, metcalph said:

A parallel might be the Three Lowfires of Lodril - the hearth fire, the forge fire and the wildfire.  So one breath can light a campfire, the second melt stone (because metals are not common in Doraddi lands) and the conflagration.  

You could also tie each of these metaphorically to types of leadership/speech like in the first post. Sort of "fires of the heart" a good leader must know how to start, feed, and extinguish, and the appropriate times to do so.

The hearth fire is the protective urge to defend one's home and family, with which a leader must motivate their soldiers. It is the Nourishing Fire. The forge fire is the transformation from farmer/herder to warrior, steeling their resolve and inspiring them so they are ready to fight. It is the Hardening Fire. The wildfire is the bloodlust that a leader whips up in their warriors as they charge into battle and fight fiercely. It is the Destroying Fire.

So when Father Vangono breathes across the plains, it's both a magical phenomenon but also describing the people preparing for war.

Bacteria exist in Glorantha? I thought diseases, rot etc. were caused by spirits and such...

26 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The third of the Seeds is what becomes their item of use - for some its the Elf Bow, a path to defend the Forest; for others it might be a dowsing stick to find buried Water; in the Errinoru Jungles it might be a long reed for poison darts; for others it might be an instrument to play the Songs of the Forest and give cheer to the Trees.    

The instrument could be a harp - if you squint reeeaaaally hard, it's basically a bow that looses notes instead of arrows...

21 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I hadn't heard this - I knew they were used in (at least late) Medieval Scandinavia.

Note the lovely horse-snowshoes!

There are also really old - 4th millennium BCE - finds in Europe. 

My mistake. I admit I'm no snowshoe expert, and was just going off of a quick google search. I still think I have point saying that just because a certain thing is physically possible to create within a given culture's means doesn't mean they'll necessarily have access to it.

44 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Which kinda implies that skis are a bit rare, at least.

That's what I was trying to get at earlier - despite skis being very useful on snow, they are only widely used in Scandinavia and the Russian White Sea coast until the 1800s, with some very early evidence of their use in Xinjiang about 5000 years ago. This was not widespread tech, even if you only consider areas with significant snowfall. Clearly, other factors are at play here.

There is scant evidence of snowshoes outside of North America, but here they are widespread across almost every indigenous people from the Arctic to the Great Plains. These make much more sense as widespread snow-traversal technology, and sleds even more so, which were used worldwide.

7 hours ago, soltakss said:

They might. It isn't the only outcome and is a rare one, but that is possible.

If someone declared that they'd achieved such sublime Kabbalistic insight that they can eat pork now, they'd be laughed out of any Jewish community, society, seminary or study group they stepped foot in. It's theological nonsense.

The point I was trying to make earlier is that we see that mystical practice, for the most part, functions as an extension of religious practice. They cannot exist in isolation from that religious context.

Moving on to Gloranthan mysticism, and its practical implementation...

I notice many of the mystical traditions in Glorantha seem to be centred around emulating a particular Rune*. Larnstings are all about Movement, Lunar Illuminates obviously embody the Moon rune, Kralori mystics seek the Dragon rune, etc. Perhaps Gloranthan mysticism could be described as figuring out how to embody a rune directly. Those who worship deities or deal with spirits gain access runes through the lens of the deity or spirit that possesses them. Even sorcerers manipulate runic forces externally. A mystic becomes that rune, being able to do anything that the rune can do, essentially. Lunar Illuminates can mix cults, utilize chaos etc. because that's what the Moon rune does, beyond simply the spell effects afforded to worshippers of the Red Goddess or the Seven Mothers. A Larnsting does what Movement does, performing feats that fall outside of what a Wind Lord could - because the latter is accessing Movement through emulating Orlanth Adventurous, while the former is going right to the source.

Mechanically, mysticism could maybe be implemented as working similar to Divine Intervention? Succeed on a roll (Meditate? POW? Relevant Rune rating? Some combination of these?) and the magical thing just happens. Maybe that's too close to sorcery? I have no idea.

Anyway I could go on but I've been writing and rewriting this post for like an hour and a half now so I'll just call this good enough.

20 minutes ago, Alex said:

Let me try to frame it as the following questions:-

If one were writing up RQ (or HQ, etc) Practical Kabbalah -- or some fictional Kabbalah-inspired practice -- how would it crucially differ from 'normal' Sorcery?  (Assuming that's the closest available starting point.)  Which 'rules' of sorcery might it 'break'?

And likewise, what're the gameable effects of Ecstatic Kabbalah (or fictionalised analogue again), beyond what we'd see with the standard Worship [liturgical entity] sort of thing?

It's hard for me to say exactly, even harder to explain in a forum post. I don't think any form of Kabbalah maps neatly onto a Gloranthan analogue. I was merely using it as an example of mysticism, in order to explain my thoughts on the Gloranthan version of it. It's really quite hard to explain Kabbalah in concrete terms because most of the concepts are vague and meant to be understood intuitively after years of meditation and study.

My initial sense would be that Meditative-Ecstatic Kabbalah is to Judaism as Illumination is to The Seven Mothers or Larnstings are to the Orlanthi - a deeper understanding of religious practice that allows a new perspective. Practical Kabbalah, to throw you a curveball, could actually be described as closest possibly to spirit magic - a lot of it deals with deriving enlightenment through positive possession by angels or ghosts of deceased sages (ibburim) or expelling or repelling evil ghosts or demons that negatively possess people (dybbuks), with an understanding that all of these are ultimately subservient to G-d, whom the practitioner obviously still worships in the regular way. Almost everything else falls under divination (dream interpretation mostly) which I'm unsure how to categorise. The Golem myth, the part that everyone's most familiar with, is most similar to a heroquest than anything else - a magical reenactment of a mythical event in the hopes of recreating its effect.

(Note: historically, it's unlikely anyone actually attempted to create a literal man out of clay - rather, it referred to an ecstatic ritual where participants would induce an altered mind state through meditation, chanting and walking in circles until a particular transcendent state of mind was achieved for the briefest of moments, emulating/witnessing the formation of Adam, after which the steps of the ritual were reversed to "return the golem to the earth" and thus, safely return the participants to the mortal world)

Anyway I'd really recommend reading the book I mentioned earlier (Gershom Scholem's On Kabbalah And Its Mysticism) or even just the wikipedia page for an understanding of what it's about. Gloranthan sorcery has seemingly not very much in common with it.

Anyway, enough about Kabbalah, it was only ever tangential to the point and the thread threatens to derail completely. I have thoughts on how mysticism works and, more importantly, how it might work in the context of game mechanics, but this post is long enough as is and I should really try to sleep at some point (it's 10:30 am and I've been up nearly a full 24 hours)

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

-20 in HW due to Misapplied Worship, i.e. using the wrong kind of magical system to approach an entity. Like Aeolians trying to approach Orlanth through sorcery.

Very few people think it was a good idea these days.

Right, though I think I was arguing for exactly the reverse (or is that converse? Maybe inverse? I'm lost here...)

6 minutes ago, Alex said:

Back in the HW era, and in the parallel track of Greg's draughtier ideas around the same period, we got sucked down the vortex of equating the method and the object.  Thus if we were doing a spell on something, it was an Essence, even if it filled a part of the magical ecology that made it look a lot like what would otherwise be called a spirit (say).  In that sort of concept, we'd declare that you got to the Transcendent Orlanth by some sort of High Theism, ecstatic worship was the shamanic method, so 'Manifest Mysticism' and 'High Animism' were essentially the same thing, and so on.  Liberally issued -20s all round.  Not exactly the pinnacle of the roleplaying or metaphysical arts.

So I think we have to unpick those:  what's the method, and what's the object.  And the third dimension is then of course what the magical consequences of the interaction of the those two.  And then yet another particular to the medium:  if 'mystics' eschew magical powers per se, but grandiose magical effects 'just happen' around them, how are we choosing to handle that?

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I follow what this has to do with what we're describing here? Where do -20s come into play? I'm not even sure I disagree, I just don't understand your argument.

Just now, Alex said:

I took the implication to be the reverse, if anything.  Perhaps I made myself obscure.

"Illumination works like this, therefore Kabbalah also works like this?" That would be a ridiculous thing to claim, if I'm understanding you correctly. I'm simply mentioning Kabbalah a lot because, as a Jewish person with some formal religious training, it's the form of mysticism I'm the most familiar with - I can't help if it colours my ideas, much as anyone's background influences theirs. (And that's a good thing!)

6 minutes ago, Alex said:

Everything is permitted in a rules and metaphysical sense -- not necessarily in a moral one.  But whether Practical Kabbalah has anything much in common with rules stabs at 'mysticism' such as Illumination or Refutation does seem pretty dubious to me.  Much less how one might map that to Monotheistic/Liturgical mysticism in Glorantha, as meaningfully distinct from 'normal' sorcery and IG worship.

Nobody is saying "Kabbalah works like this, therefore Illumination must also work like this". Rather, since we're discussing fictional mystical practice, it's helpful to look at IRL mystical practice for reference, much like how one might look at a Corinthian helmet to help determine what a Humakti might wear to battle, or read up on Mesopotamian city states and Roman provincesto help determine how a Lunar satrapy might govern itself.

Aside: Another reason to read On The Kabbalah And Its Symbolism that I just remembered is the part where Scholem describes Paracelsus coming up with the idea of the homonculus by reading rabbinical texts on creating golems and going "hm, sounds neat! But I think instead of clay, I'll make it out of my own blood, shit and cum - because I really, really hate women".

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

The large focus on Nysalorean Illumination with its frequent outcome of "nothing is true, everything is permitted" seems like short-changing the mystical tradition as well. No-one would do Kabbalah and then suddenly realize that no divine laws apply to them any longer.

Precisely - practice of Kabbalah mandates rigorous Torah and Talmud study separate from study of mystical texts, as well as strict observance of dietary, purity, and worship laws and of the Sabbath. It's where the old rule comes from: one must study the Torah for forty years before one can start learning Kabbalah.

Side note: this is one of the many reasons the Kabbalah Institute and organisations like it are basically nonsense-peddlers for bored celebrities and have nothing to do with real Kabbalah, which is by definition a closed practice!

Thus, I agree that the Illumination described in the rulebook is specifically that of the Nysalorean/Lunar variety, which makes sense as that is the kind most likely to be encountered by adventurers. The "nothing is true, everything is permitted" outcome, as you put it, isn't universal to all traditions but in fact the effect of an ecstatic understanding of the concept: "We Are All Us". The Lunar philosophy of universal acceptance is what allows the mystic to accept universally!

Thus the way I see it, a Larnsting would not gain the ability to mix and match cults and runes (since that's specifically the Lunar thing) but rather would gain powers appropriate to the Orlanthi mantra: "No-one can make you do anything"! In practice, I see them not rejecting Orlanthi practices but in fact following them to a degree as strict as the most devout Wind Lord.

A tangent: with this in mind, could one potentially make the argument that Brithini immortality is also the result of some kind of mystical practice? It's a stretch, but an amusing one to think about 🙂

51 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think this definition is a little restrictive. There are Christian and Muslim mystics as well, who often don't practice ascetism (at least not a very strong one - excess should typically be avoided). There's an ecstatic aspect to it that is almost universal, though, as in Sufi whirling. The idea is to achieve direct contact with an otherwise inaccessible Ultimate, whatever that is pictured as being (God for Christians, unsurprisingly).

A good read on the topic is Gershom Scholem's On The Kabbalah And Its Symbolism, 1965. Obviously the book is mostly about the Jewish / Kabbalistic perspective, but he places it in the context of Christian, Muslim and (to some extent Buddhist) theories on the subject. The first chapter in particular, "Religious Authority and Mysticism" is particularly relevant here - exploring the idea that the mystic upturns the orthodoxy of their source religious tradition even as they cling to it as a framework and claim to legitimacy. 

As an example: the ideas put forth in the Zohar about the Ein Sof and its Emanations to the uninitiated observer may come across as nearly polytheistic. But the Kabbalist mystic, initiated into its mysteries, understands that not only are these ideas not heretical, but that in fact this is a deeper understanding of the Torah, passed down from the eminent tannaitic scholar, Rabbi Shimon bar Zochai! Instead of attempting to supplant the established text, it takes great pains to support the orthodox theology even as it suggests radically new ways to interpret it. Furthermore, the book draws on the history of religious practice to further bind itself to it, by presenting itself not as the mystical insights of the  probable historical 16th century author, but a figure of great importance from the religion's distant, mythological past.

I can see there being similarities here to the Larnsting traditon. Here too we see a mystical tradition being attributed to a mythical figure of great importance (King Sartar); we also see a seemingly radically different philosophy than that of the established Orlanthi orthodoxy which is, however, a deepened mystical understanding of those same beliefs (or so it claims).

I'm not really doing the book justice - I'd recommend picking up a copy and giving it a look. It's a really good read, if nothing else.

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

Winter hunting could be another.

Which begs the question: why don't they hunt in warmer weather? Maybe there's rare prey that only shows up in winter. Maybe winter is the only time that the Brown Elves, which guard the local game-filled woods, hibernate...

Something to consider: like the modern sport of cross-country skiing, skis were invented for travelling long distances over snow. So if you're trying to figure out if a given clan or culture would likely use them, then considering whether or not they would often have a need for Dark Season travel would be a good place to start. Keeping up with migrating herds (for instance, of reindeer, as mentioned above) is one such reason. I'm sure the imaginative writer could come up with more.

Is it that much of a deal to have some differentiation between mechanics and lore? It doesn't seem so unreasonable for a Goldentongue character to proudly display their affinity with the Issaries/Trade rune, which is then recorded on their character sheet as high percentages in Harmony and Movement. Equally, it would be ridiculous for someone to say "Fear my prowess in battle, for I have a 1H Sword (Broadsword) rating of 155%!" or "I was going to travel to the temple next season and sacrifice a point of POW for an extra Rune Point, but alas - my current Rune Points are equal to my CHA!"

On a related note, I know older material like Hero Wars had individual runes for every deity - their non-inclusion in RQ:G I never took as being retconned from existence, but rather simply deemed mechanically redundant. I don't really see the issue.

Someone was working on a Glorantha mod for Dwarf Fortress at one point,  and was planning to include playable uz and Mostali. Unfortunately, they only thing they seem to have coded in before promptly abandoning the project are... scorpion men, of all things? Shame, really. If I didn't have enough on my plate as is I'd make one myself.

I'm no rules maven but consider: perhaps the fact that sorcery requires a protective screen of warriors is why their society developed separate wizard/warrior castes, instead of the Rune Lord warrior-mages common in theist societies?

You have to choose a specific Melee Weapon, but yes, that works. Remember that Rune Lords need multiple skills at such a high level (not to mention multiple other requirements), so it's not like you can become one straight out the gate.

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

We might be past it (with major reservations, there are plenty of people I know who still think that way), but Orlanthi society isn't. I don't want all fantasy societies to be postmodern liberal progressive utopias.

Given extensive archaeological and anthropological evidence for the existence of enormous amounts of gender fluidity and variance throughout history and across the globe, it'd be more accurate to say that the imposition of a strict binary hierarchy upon history/pre-history constitutes a "reactionary conservative utopia"

Anyway what surprises me is, despite the supposed existence of six genders and accepted homosexuality is that none of these things get mentioned outside of the little blurb at the beginning of the book. Going from real world examples, you'd expect to see more cults and cultures with codified roles for gender-variant people, at the very least some eunuch-only priesthoods, things like that; as well as actual named characters in same-gender relationships mentioned in the text. But.... well, "surprising" is the maybe the wrong word. Disappointing and expected, perhaps.

But hey, YGMV; if you want to base your Bronze Age on the self-censored writings of squeamish Victorian archaeologists (who'd regularly destroy/leave out artifacts they deemed "immoral" from their reports), well, nobody's stopping you.