dumuzid

9 minutes ago, John Biles said:

So why didn't Ompalam die with the other gods?

Why do the Praxian tribes, just about the most Chaos-hating human society we have detailed information on, practice widespread slavery without their own Storm Bulls turning on them in snorting rage?  Why do the Sartarites, worshipers of some of the most Freedom-minded gods in the cosmos, accept atrocities like the Sun Domer genocide and mass enslavement of the Kitori?  Why do even the uz, the most Chaos-hating sentient beings in Glorantha, enslave almost every enlo born to them?

Because Ompalam is the most insidious of the surviving Terror Lords.  He's taken the tactic shared by Krarsht, Cacodemon, Thanatar etc. of secretive parasitism a step further, and made his 'gift' a poison so sweet and tempting for those who wield it that even the most inveterate foes of Chaos find themselves taking a sip.   He doesn't send 'demons of slavery' out into the world, he simply supplies a concept, and leaves it to the greed of mortals to execute and proliferate it.  In large swathes of Fonrit, where he's stronger than anywhere else in Glorantha, he's considered to be the same being as the Invisible God of the Malkioni.  I think there's some truth there.  He's invisible, formless and diffuse, given shape only in the form of the tools for implementing his concept--right down to his old personal rune, a pair of manacles.  When Argrath and his Trickster garrote the gods with Arachne Solara's own web, he simply is not there.  He's waiting patiently for the opposition to finish twitching their last, safe in the chains of High King Argrath's own household slaves.

There's a corollary to all this.  If Glorantha's nightmare future is to be averted (eventually becoming our own sad ball of dirt), at least one major element of the Prophecies of the Hero Wars has to be turned on its head: the Veldang Revolution in Fonrit has to succeed.

The actually victorious power in the 'Argrath Saga' ending to the Hero Wars is Ompalam.  In the Fourth Age, without magic to increase crop yields and otherwise bolster economic productivity, the elites of new and surviving cultures across Glorantha will almost inevitably turn to more and harsher means of securing reliable labor inputs to make up the new shortfalls.  Societies that only practiced slavery on a limited basis will see it increase, and many societies that did not practice it in the Third Age will take it up as their previous methods of magically-assisted subsistence fail.  The rattling of chains will encompass the world to replace Arachne Solara's web, while Ompalam lounges atop the corpses of the gods and laughs, drinking the blood of successive generations of ground-down humanity, growing fatter and stronger with time like a malignant tumor in the flesh of the cosmos.

This is why your player characters must ensure that Argrath's Saga does not end according to the script.

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

(I may still be stuck with Columbia as wyter of the USA, though, however wrong that is.)

Sadly, the United States' tutelary power is Ompalam.

11 hours ago, EricW said:

Given trolls left the underworld after Orlanth killed Yelm, and all dead things (including trolls?) end up in the underworld, surely there are well trodden paths dead trolls could take which would return them to the surface world? Why isn't this a regular occurrence? After all, the surface world has lots of yummy food, and I'm guessing even dead trolls get hungry?

This sort of thing might indeed have been reliably possible at the Palace of Black Glass, before a certain would-be God King annihilated the place and filled the old stairs to the Hell Basement with bubbling pitch.

edit: Having said that, it raises a follow-up question: what could motivate a troll to come back, when they could be living out the several excellent afterlives available through the Darkness cults?  They could be feasting in Argan Argar's mansion between forays onto the surface to unfurl Xentha's blanket across the world each sunset, or enjoying the bounty of the restored Wonderhome under Kyger Litor's Darksense gaze, etc. etc.

Seems to me that only trolls with serious unfinished business and the power to make a significant difference would make the journey; for those awaiting the arrival of loved ones, well, everybody gets to the Underworld eventually, unless the Bat gobbles them up.  Just have to wait, and enjoy themselves in the meantime.

I reckon she died about the same time that Argan Argar escorted Esrola into the Underworld

21 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I understood Lodril was imprisoned under the Shadow Plateau at some time but may have misunderstood that...

yeah argan argar stole his spear, put him in a gimp suit, made him raise the Palace of Black Glass and installed him in the basement.  

When a friend of mine was running a 1626 campaign he had Argrath show up at Boldhome with his Praxians only to find that the Flame of Sartar was already lit: by Leika Black Spear.  After some internal struggle he set out to woo Leika; they married, and Argrath became the Princess of Sartar.  The royal couple went on to fight a decisive battle in Tarsh for the climax of that campaign.

My own players started my current campaign as Eaglebrown Warlocks, but they grew disenchanted with Argrath after he launched into a bit of a supervillain monologue about how he would tear the moon from the sky, no matter what opposed him.  They're still technically his warlocks, but he sent them to travel the world with Gebel and Gabaryanga in the Quest for the Red Sword and they've shown no great inclination to look back.

It's the ancient homeland of the Third Eye Blue, as opposed to their modern center in the Brass Mountains of Carmania.

I did some development of this area for my current campaign, it was the setting for the climactic adventure for Fire Season, 1627 in that game.  For our purposes I decided that the Ban dissolved around the area over Sacred Time 1626-1627.  I theorized that when the Ban first rose, it trapped Third Eye Blue pilgrims from the Brass Mountains come to visit the ruins of the old homeland plus the Uncoling and settled Fronelans who regularly came to trade with those.  Over the decades of the Ban these people formed a composite community that built a new walled settlement on the site of the Third Eye Blue's original city.  They'd grown to a few hundred individuals by the time the Ban lapsed.  I named the settlement, both the modern one and the ancient site, Pikungo after Piku, the leader of the Zaranistangi offshoot who settled in Fronela and became the Third Eye Blue at some point after their people first lost the Red Sword of Tolat.

I made Pikungo the resting place of one of the three Weapons of Talor for my campaign as well.  My players visited  to earn the Weapon, and ended up helping to command the community's defense against an expedition from the Kingdom of War.

19 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I'm inclined to place them in Ramalia - a notably cursed land

That would lend itself to the idea of Slontan God Learners, or their debased post-cataclysm successors, attempting to replicate Nysalor's gift to the Telmori in the First Age to create their own controlled population of were-boar shock troops.

Selenteen of Alampish's doomed expedition into the Wastes seeking the Red Sword of Tolat, played either from the Praxian or Teshnan perspective.

the main obstacle to using the Tarpit as a magical pathway is, of course, that it's full of bubbling tar

not entirely related, but i'm a big fan of those jolanti in Aggar (I think) that were taught how to grow and reproduce by the elves.  i used that as a horror story for the Pavis Dwarf player character in my campaign

whoever happens to be wielding the Red Sword of Tolat is Glorantha's current instance of the Eternal Champion

On 11/26/2022 at 6:23 PM, Nevermet said:

Gebel brings back the Lopers as part of the quest for the Rest Sword of Tolat.  Do these new Zaranistangi care about Maniria?

When the Lopers were last in Slontos they were fighting the modern Ramalians' ancestors on behalf of the Autarchy.  When they return in force during the Hero Wars I expect most of them will be in the East and Pamaltela, but there may be some who return to Maniria to visit some long-delayed revenge on the surviving heirs of the God Learners and reconnect with the suddenly renewed Autarchy in Ralios.

On 11/26/2022 at 6:23 PM, Nevermet said:

Quest for the Red Sword

• Does the quest pass through Maniria at all?
  • [No Idea]

I have done some 'field research' on this question, as part of running my current Quest for the Red Sword and Bones of Artmal campaign.

My campaign first took to the sea with Gebel and Gabaryanga at Corflu, after the players determined the current resting place of the Red Sword: Spada, Loskalm.  They sailed west along southern Genertela, stopping at Nochet before reaching the Manirian coast.  In Maniria the quest stopped at Handra and Khorst, where their ship contributed to a force sent from Handra to break a blockade staged by the Alatan pirates around Khorst.  The blockade was supported by a land expedition from Valekos.  The companions of Gebel and Gabaryanga learned enough about Ramalia to understand that it was a slaving society descended from the God Learners before they proceeded on to Seshnela.

In my campaign they have since drawn the Red Sword and are participating in the War Against War in Fronela.  The Sword was drawn with an oath to wield it against the surviving remnants of the God Learners, and there is a strong possibility that once the quest has found the last Bones of Artmal in Genertela the questers are likely to retrace their path along the Genertelan coast before setting off to Teshnos or Jrustela.  Given what they know about Ramalia, they are likely to pay the place a visit on their return trip and attempt to overthrow the current regime.

The Alatan blockade was my own invention, but the general shape of the quest (starting in Teshnos, sailing along the Genertelan coast to eventually reach Fronela, ultimately leaving Genertela for Jrustela and Pamaltela) means the sailor-heroes will pass the Manirian coast at least once.  Given the strong anti-slavery flavor of the quest (Gabaryanga is a former rebel slave from Fonrit destined to lead the Veldang Revolution etc), it is highly likely that in most Gloranthas the Red Sword questers will be opposed to the rulers of Ramalia, and if they've gained enough power before leaving Genertela they're likely to try doing something about the state of things in Ramalia before they head for the open ocean.

this would've been pretty handy to have when my campaign set out in a Haragalan tallship from Nochet to Pithdaros a while back

My current campaign has had one of each of the main Elder Races as player characters, a Pavis Mostali (rock caste), a Pavis Garden Aldryami (green, Aldrya/Halmalao initiate), and a Shadow Plateau Dark Troll (Gorakiki/Subere shaman).  The Aldryami and Uz are still active players.  Our campaign is focused on a big globe-trotting quest, we're currently deep in the terminal phases of the War Against War in Fronela.  The campaign began as a story about one of the first cadres of Argrath's Eaglebrown Warlocks, which provided a ready explanation for strange and usually inimical people being bound into a shared magico-military unit.  As the campaign shifted into a ship-based world traveling story we've had the quest (restore the crippled god Artmal) to keep everyone's interests focused in at least complimentary directions.

In terms of supporting Elder Race player characters mechanically, it took a certain amount of porting forward older cult rules (Flintnail, Gorakiki and Subere specifically), and some spitballing around results in the Character Histories that didn't make sense, but I've found there's enough material in the Bestiary to ease that process considerably.

My own first time playing an Elder Race character was as the sole troll in a human PC group, and I really enjoyed playing into both the differences and similarities between my troll and the surrounding human society.  I'm pleased to be able to give my players the opportunity to do the same.

3 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Ok, that makes sense. It seems one sword is in the Temple of War in Spada, Loskalm, another is possibly still in Melib?

The Zaranistangi only had one Red Sword, the one they brought from Pamaltela to Melib.  The Great Temple of Tolat in Melib has been without its Red Sword since Avalor took it with him into the west in 950.  Hence the quests for the Red Sword: the expedition led by Selenteen of Alampish out of Teshnos, that got as far as the Zola Fel River in Prax in 1250 but no further; and the expedition of Gebel and Gabaryanga at the start of the Hero Wars (i.e., the 1620s ST), which is supposed to succeed according to the Prophecies of the Hero Wars in the Guide.

10 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Does anyone wish to list the 3-4 swords and the birthdates?

No exact birthdates exist because the swords were born in the Gods Age, before Time.

The First Sword, Tolat's Sword, I've never heard a genesis story for.  He carries it in his earliest myths.  It dates to the Golden Age of the Gods Age or earlier.

The Second Sword, Artmal's Sword, was born in the late Golden Age after Umath's invasion of the sky.  It was probably lost when Artmal was slain by Baraku, the Pamaltelan invader Storm god usually associated with Orlanth.

The Third Sword, Yeetai's Sword, was born in the Storm Age after the Artmali first settled in Pamaltela.  It was either stolen by the Zaranistangi, becoming the Sword of Melib, or lost in the wreck of the Artmali Empire in the Darkness Age of the Gods World.

If the Sword of Melib is actually the offspring of the Third Sword and not the same weapon, then it was born in the late Storm or early Darkness age, when it was given to the Zaranistangi by one of the later Artmali Emperors.  There are no known offspring of the Sword of Melib.

Of the several Red Swords only the Sword of Melib is known to still exist in the Middle World: at the Temple of War in Spada.  The others can only be contacted or summoned by heroquesting into the Gods World and experiencing their associated myths.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

I'll need to readup on them but, may I assume if a PC from the East is looking, any information on the Loper People would be at the Knowledge Temple in Pavis or with the tribes' maybe wandering shaman?

In Prax the Loper People are a sort of boogieman.  They were like the Praxian tribes in that they were intrinsically tied to their Loper Beast mounts, but moved vastly faster than the tribes could as a group, so they seemed to simply appear from nowhere, and return there just as quickly (the Zaranistangi and their mounts possess excellent, cheap teleportation magic, see the 'Loper' entry starting p. 150 of the Bestiary, for both rules and a picture).  It's been a very long time since they were last known to travel the wastes though, so you'd be as likely to find tidbits about them in Prax from wandering storytellers and performers as from actual shamans.  Ancestor shamans in contact with ancestors from the Second Age and Earlier might be better informed though.

In Heortland the Knowledge Temples might preserve information about the travels of the Loper People, and the very best libraries, like that of the Nochet Knowledge Temple in Esrolia, might contain references to their service with the Autarchs.  Just like with Praxian sources, though, all of this will be pretty archaic knowledge, most of it coming from before the cataclysm at the end of the Second Age.

1 hour ago, Erol of Backford said:

Also there was mention of three (3) swords, (of which two might be replicas similar to the Orb and Scepter for the Sun Dome)?

No, not replicas.  A lineage of divine swords, which have begotten offspring parthenogenically.  The first Red Sword was the Sword of Tolat.  The myths say that when Tolat/Shargash battled Umath, the first storm god, after he broke through the Sky Dome from outside, Tolat was nearly bested but saved in the nick of time by his nephew Artmal, son of the Blue Moon.  To reward his nephew Tolat had his Red Sword produce a child, a new weapon which became the Red Sword of Artmal.  Much later in the Gods Age, Artmal led his children the Artmali people down from the Blue Moon to settle in Pamaltela and he's said to have given the offspring of his sword, the third Red Sword, to his son Yeetai, the first Artmali Emperor.  Still later in the Gods Age, the Zaranistangi (cousins of the Artmali, descended from the Blue Moon and the god of the wandering star the Orlanthi call Mastakos) gained their own Red Sword from the Artmali Emperor, but accounts differ.  One version says they saved the Artmali Emperor in battle, and the Emperor repaid them by doing as Tolat and Artmal did, and gave them the offspring of his Red Sword as an heirloom.  Another account says the Zaranistangi betrayed the Artmali and stole the Emperor's Sword. 

Whichever is true, this is the Red Sword the Zaranistangi took with them when they departed Pamaltela for what's now Melib and Teshnos, the same sword that was eventually lost to the Brithini, regained from the Autarchy, lost again to the God Learners etc.  Thus the Red Sword of the Zaranistangi is either the third or fourth sword in the lineage descending from the Red Sword of Tolat, depending on what exactly happened between the Artmali and Zaranistangi before the latter left Pamaltela.

7 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

Was this close to the year 450? Just not familiar with the Red Sword timeline. And if so was this (when was) the last time the sword went out into the world to be lost? Last seen in the Heortland or so I thought I read?

The Red Sword has changed hands and criss-crossed Genertela a few times, and its origins lie in the Artmali Empire of Pamaltela.  Myths describe how the sword was wielded by the kings of the Zaranistangi, to save Melib from the Great Flood of Sshorg in the God Time, and subsequently on adventures beyond Melib.  I think an old source said it was lost to the Brithini for a while in the early First Age, after they ambushed a group of wandering Zaranistangi they mistook for their ancient enemies, the Blue Vadeli.  The Sword returned to Genertela with Arkat when he led the Brithini Army of Law into Seshnela to oppose the Empire of Light.  It remained among the treasures of the Autarchy, the realm he founded in Ralios after the Gbaji Wars, and the Autarchs traded it back to the Zaranistangi to get their aid in their long struggle with Seshnela.  In 760 ST the Zaranistangi king Bradoszaran lost the sword in battle with the Seshnelan God Learners. 

The God Learners did not fully understand the Sword.  It took fifteen years before a God Learner adventurer named Ordanal figured out enough of its origins to sail to Melib, where he re-sheathed the Sword in the earth of Tolat's great temple there, a deed that saw him acclaimed king of the island.  He and his successors expanded God Learner rule over all of Teshnos as the 'Kingdom of Eest,' but none could draw the Sword from the earth again until Avalor, the last and greatest king of Eest, who could draw and sheathe the sword as he wished.  He abandoned everything and took the sword with him in 950 to chase the kidnappers of his wife into the west. 

The movements of the sword for the next few decades are unknown until 980, when it was laid to rest in the Temple of War at Spada, a city of Loskalm, after 'the foreign hero Avlor' wielded it in the final revolution against the God Learners there.  As of ~1618-19, the 'present' of the Guide to Glorantha, the Sword is still interred at Spada.  According to the 'Prophecies of the Hero Wars' scattered throughout the Guide it will eventually be recovered by the Teshnan sailor-hero Gebel and the Fonritian rebel slave leader Gabaryanga, as part of the great quest to heal the crippled god Artmal, son of the Blue Moon and father of the Veldang people of Pamaltela.

The Sword would be known in Prax and Heortland as the great weapon and symbol of the 'Loper People,' another name for the Zaranistangi, who travelled through those lands extensively in the First and Second Ages, but who have mostly withdrawn into the Gods World by the Third Age.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that that timetable works out - Avalor left Teshnos rather late before the cataclysms, and Halwal's liberation of Fronela started significantly earlier.

According to the Guide, the (sparse) timeline runs:

Avalor leaves Teshnos in 950 ST (GtG 429), ten years after the Closing cuts Jrustela off from the wider world (GtG 138).

The final revolution against the God Learners in Fronela succeeds in 980 ST (GtG 200).

I think it's perfectly reasonable for Avalor to have made his way to Fronela within thirty years.  It's also possible that an adult child of his, even one fathered after he left Teshnos, is the one who arrives with the Red Sword as "the foreign Hero Avlor who used it to aid Tryensaval and Halwal to free Loskalm from the God Learners" (GtG 211).  As you say, it's a shame we have no sources about what exactly Avalor did when he headed west with the Sword, but there's room in the timeline for him to have had years of perilous adventures in late Second Age Genertela before he or someone with a peculiarly similar name brings the Red Sword to Fronela.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

and if the deity was introduced only by Avalor or his foes (a possible explanation for the abduction of his wife), why was it separated from the Red Sword?

I wouldn't expect Vorthan to have been introduced to the region in the Second Age.  The center of Vorthan worship seems to be Vorthan's Hill, near Ayos in the western heartlands of modern Jonatela, and the cult is of enough local significance that the Courtyard of Sacrifices in the palace of the Jonatelan kings has a shrine dedicated to him alongside Jonat, Humakt, Orlanth, Talor, and Urox (GtG 227).  The Temple of War at Spada, where the Sword was interred, is described in the Guide as a place "where the barbarians once placated the gods of war and storm with blood sacrifices," (GtG 211).  I'm not sure what you mean by the Sword being separated from Vorthan, it sounds to me like it was laid to rest after the revolution in a place at least partially dedicated to the Fronelan god of the Red Planet.  I'd argue that Vorthan's cult has roots in Fronela at least as deep as the coming of the Lightbringer cults in the First Age,  possibly earlier through the Zaranistangi followers of Piku, and is 'the same god' as Shargash to the same degree as Tolat: probably within the God Learner monomyth, but with significant local variation.

The hottest new religious movement sweeping the Western Reaches of the Lunar Empire is pretty mysterious.  From what I can find in the Guide, it was elevated from a local phenomenon to a growing mass movement by one Saranko, brother to the Hierophant of Carmania and the Satrap of Spol, son of Yolanela the Taloned Countess.  The Hierophant, Brostangian Archmoor, has resisted calls from the other magi to condemn the cult as a heresy as of ~1618 ST.  The cult is spreading amongst both the common people and high nobility of the Reaches, including Kaufan Destrino the Castle Builder, Satrap of Bindle, who's deliberately spreading the cult among his followers and subjects as part of his project to fortify his realm against the emergence of the barbarian bull-riders of Charg from the Syndic's Ban.  The cult's center is the small city of Ajaak, which is surrounded by mysterious, cyclopean walls of unknown origin.  The priests in Ajaak claim that 'their god was enlightened and conquered the Invisible God,' (GtG p. 325).  When interfaith tensions flare in the Western Reaches the priests of Invisible Orlanth make themselves scarce.  This is the sum of what my research has turned up.

What's going on here?  Is this some sort of Aeolianist movement springing up in Carmania?  How does it interface with the cults of the Red Goddess, with their own affinities for the invisible?  Where is it going as the Hero Wars start to kick off?  Most importantly: are there any published sources on this subject outside of the GtG?  I turn to the tribe for answers.

25 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

That being said and accepted, what would be an alternate for this character in the Heortland as a daughter of Arasilthos the Sage?

If she reached Initiate status in the Tolat cult before leaving the East she wouldn't necessarily need a shrine to worship at: as long as she's got a rune point left come the next holy day (for Shargash at least that's Wildday, Death Week each season, plus associated cults) she can cast Sanctify to create a temporary ceremonial space dedicated to Tolat even in the lands of the storm barbarians.  As others have mentioned she could also make periodic pilgrimages to Nochet, where there's a Teshnan quarter that probably has at least a shrine dedicated to Tolat, given his cult's importance in Melib.  These would be the answers for her continuing to practice any Teshnos/Eastern cults while living in Heortland.  Some communities, especially trade-focused settlements, will have a 'shrine to unknown gods' that works as a sacred space for guests who worship powers not recognized or known within the community.  If the group is associated with a Dormal sailing ship it will have a shrine on deck that functions as a shrine to all cults worshiped by full members of its crew, as well.  This last option has proven pretty important in my current campaign, which has traveled from Prax to Fronela by sailing ship.

Her alternatives would be to join a local cult, which has its own complications and advantages, or potentially to be a practicing mystic, as her parent likely is.  Of course there's no rules that I know of for Teshnan/Kralorelan/East Isles mysticism, so you'd have to take what's described in the Guide and the Stafford Library's Arcane Lore and riff out the details with the daughter's player, a labor-intensive but potentially rewarding process.

Off the top of my head, the Marazi explanation for their own genesis (per the Guide) is that they descend from women who were failed by their mates and societies in the Darkness, and chose to follow Tolat instead as their lover and leader.  The original Marazi could've been from any number of late-Gods-War Gloranthan societies, in both Genertela and Pamaltela.  They might not even have all been human: it's at least theoretically possible that female aldryami, trolls etc. pledged themselves to Tolat in the Darkness, he is a creature of both the Sky and the Underworld after all.

e:  Since it hasn't been mentioned elsewhere in this thread, I'd add that while there's not much reason to expect Shargash/Tolat shrines and temples in south-central Genertela, there is one place on that continent where Red Planet worship is strong outside of Teshnos and Dara Happa: northwest Genertela, Fronela generally but especially the kingdom of Jonatela, where the God of the Red Planet is worshiped under the name Vorthan.  The kings of Jonatela are High Priests of Vorthan, along with several other gods.  The Red Sword of Melib (AKA the Red Sword of the Zaranistangi, probably the third in the Red Sword lineage) lies at the Temple of War in Spada, Loskalm circa 1619 ST, where it has rested since its last known use: by 'the foreign hero Avlor,' per the Guide, in the final revolt against the God Learners in Fronela.  Avlor is almost certainly the same person as Avalor, the High King of Eest who ran off with the Red Sword into the west in the late Second Age, and he may also be Sigur, the first king of post-God Learner Loskalm.

The primary Trickster opposing Ompalam in Fonrit would be Bolongo, the nearest equivalent in the Pamaltelan pantheon to Eurmal.  Several of his nastier tricks are recorded in Revealed Mythologies.  According to one of them he's responsible for the division of the world into physical and spiritual planes (through murder).  Garangordos and his Glorious Ones began their conquest of what became Fonrit by heroquesting the myth of the Necklace of Pamalt, the Pamaltelan understanding of the Great Compromise, with Garangordos taking the role of Pamalt and drawing his relatives and associates into the drama in the guise of different Pamaltelan gods, re-textured and re-contextualized by making the lessons of Ompalam central to the story.  Garangordos' brother Jokotu proved to be Bolongo within this new Necklace, who murdered Garangordos at or near the end of the conquest and was dismembered by the rest of the Glorious Ones for his trouble.  The City of the Free is named for Jokotu, and I suspect that the Bolongo cult has a powerful role in resistance to the Fonritian slaving system, both among rebellious slaves and counter-cultural masirin, or really anyone in Fonrit who wants to flaut or undermine the strictures of society.