Squaredeal Sten

As i re-read the Rune cults chapter of RQG, I don't see any reason that there should be a fixed number of Rune Lord positions at any temple.  Not as a general requirement, though who can say what might be in yet-unpublished cults books?  If you play it that way, YGWV, but it would be too bad if any third -party reader were to take a Rune Lord office count limitation as canon.

Why do i write this?

The Rune Priest requirements on page 276 do include "Have a vacancy at the temple as determined by the gamemaster."

But the Rune lord requirements on page 280 do not.

Those requirements are

   - Initiate in good standing for 5 years.  (And note that priests do not have a matching time requirement.)

   - Rune affinity and Devotion (deity) or Loyalty (temple)  of 90%

   - CHA of 18+

   - Cult skills, details vary

And that's it.  No vacant office required by the book.  Yes the book calls Rune Lord an "office" but I don't see a reference to a limit.

And I can see Gloranthan reasons why that would be so:  Qualified candidates for Rune Lord are going to be pretty rare, much rarer than clan or tribal thanes.   And rune lords do die in combat, so we ought not to assume that many live to a non-combat retirement, unlike priests who can perform their official functions into old age.  If you have one more rune lord and one less initiate thane, your tribe or clan still has the same count of "nobles" to support, so it's not a big economic issue even though the lord may have perks..  And the rune lord is going to give you much more combat power than the average initiate thane: Cheap DI, maybe an allied spirit, probably higher skills.  finally, it's the Hero Wars now!  You want all the rune lords you can get.

YGMV.

-

2 hours ago, svensson said:

But initiates are not ordained in the priesthood... they're committed worshipers only. Yes, they can worship without a priest/ess, but there are functions they can't do... My point in my first comment on the thread is that Shamans with no connection to deity cannot access the deity's magic. Initiates have a connection with the deity granting the powers and a place in a cult's hierarchy that shamans simply don't have.

There are exceptions, of course, Kolatings sometimes have access to Orlanth-given Rune magic for one example. Shamans can Summon a Specific Ancestor to gain access to a deity's Rune magic if the shaman knows of the Specific Ancestor by name. A shaman would have summon his ancestor 'Bob, son of Joe', not 'I summon one of my ancestors who was a Barntar initiate'.

I suppose we'd need a mechanic to sort out whether or not a given Shaman knows of a specific ancestor that was an initiate of a specific deity. Off the top of my head that would probably be a Customs [Own], Cult Lore, or Insight [Own] roll, probably requiring a Special or Crit success.

Any player who wants to do that should take pains to put maximum detail into the Ancestor part of character generation.  

1 hour ago, svensson said:

Initiates are part of god's hierarchy, though not part of the church. Initiates have donated POW, made the commitment oaths, and have some dedication to the faith. They are not ordained but they can conduct worship if no Rune level is available. They can cast Divination [it is a Common Rune Spell] but only via their cult connections. For example, an Orlanth initiate cannot use Divination for information that would rightfully belong to Yelmalio, etc. Just because an opposing Yelmalion initiate breathes Air does not mean that Orlanth knows what he's up to - - this works vice-versa of course... Just because an Orlanth initiate is working under Yelm's light doesn't mean that a Sky pantheon initiate knows anything about him either.

So, yes, Initiates can get Divination and/or prophetic dreams from their deity, but they may have to consult with the priesthood to understand the meanings [aka 'failed the Cult Lore skill roll to understand the allegories'].

Yes, I know what initiate means.  And I know that priest is essentially synonymous with intermediary.  What got me was the "only" part, since as I understand it if there is no ordained priest available SOME initiate will lead Worship on appropriate days.  And initiates can divine, can consecrate (temporarily), and more important for game purposes they can use the god's powers (rune magic).

 

On 3/28/2024 at 7:33 AM, svensson said:

I would submit that most gods communicate through their priestly hierarchy exclusively unless the faith has a shamanic component... 

Does that mean that mere Initiates cannot use Divination?  

Does that mean there are no portentous dreams except for priests?

 

On 4/7/2024 at 5:55 PM, Akhôrahil said:

This is an interesting suggestion, because they can be defeated in physical combat, on HeroQuests. Perhaps it's rather that you need the correct mythical framework (I don't know exactly who the Bad Man is, but shouldn't he be vastly stronger if he's the enemy of someone divine or godlike? this suggests that a mythic frame has been created where a would-be shaman has a chance of fending him off).

I am also not clear about who or what the Bad Man is.  But I doubt "he" is a god, because apprentice shamans bucking for a promotion can occasionally beat him in a round of spirit combat.  Prosopaedia page 13 says "powerful maleficient spirit" and shamans' special foe, who seeks to halt the dissemination of magical knowledge. 

What is Bad Man's relation to the Horned God, or Horned Man, since both terms are used?  Evidently a perpetual but inferior opponent.  Or a punching bag, always sprining back to be whacked by the next apprentice. 

Who is the Horned Man and why the confusion of names?

And of course the temple now supports the newly promoted Rune Lord. Probably with assignment of five hides of land and/ or herds with grazing.  Maybe with free meals at the temple, if it practices communal dining.  ( In my mind that is the way to go for a large temple with several priests and initiates on staff.  I don't believe they should all be living at inns.)  A small temple at village level probably has one priest/priestess. who lives in a nearby house. probably temple property but maybe family property.

In general, same here.  End movement and begin to call "Strike rank 1, strike rank 2" etc.  

But I don't understand why you care whether  they say the magic words "attacking", "defending".  In melee they will both attack (may say "I spear the broo") and parry. In missile combat they either shoot or don't.  In casting magic they name the spell and if applicable name the target.  We can play a whole session without saying "attack".

 

4 hours ago, Karlak One-eye said:

Hi folks,

The various RQG books and multiple products from the Jonstown Compendium give us excellent and atmospheric example of youthful initiations but I cannot recall seeing anything on what happens when our heroes take the big step of becoming rune level (in our campaign we call it "Taking your rune". Obviously each cult will be different but has anyone got any thoughts?

It is possible that lack of material may be because in RQ2 making rune level was generally character retirement.

Anyway, thoughts:

First thought:  

The cult should probably have some tests, to verify the prerequisites; Power 18, skill 90% in cult skills.  For a check on Rune points you might cast your Rune magic.

But second thought:

I am not absolutely sure of that, because to make Rune level you "should' already be well known to your temple.   For example your Humakti has demonstrated his skill to comrades in battle.  He may be the guy who cut the head off an Allosaurus with one blow, so after that who would ask for a test of sword skill?

There may be a priest at the temple who taught him his rune spells, so can count on his fingers and attest from memory how many rune points  the applicant has.

Recognizing that your campaign may vary, and for all I know your player characters are rootless wanderers, in which case they may not even have a temple to call theirs. 

Anyway I would expect a ceremonial investment, laying on of hands, oath of acceptance of the office.  Maybe a rune lord gets his first piece of iron if the temple can afford it.  But in my campaign they already had iron, talen off of defeated Lunar rune levels.

On 4/1/2024 at 10:07 PM, Stan Shinn said:

Let's say you make your statement of intent that you are going to attack enemy #1. Then, as you resolve actions, enemy #1 dies before you get to attack them, but enemy #2 is within reach.

Would you rule that:

(1) The PC's original target is down so you lose your attack.

or

(2) The PC can use their 'attack action' to attack enemy #2, or any enemy with reach.

or something else?

-- Stan

We are talking about a 12 second melee round, and if there is movement involved half of that must be gone.  I would never allow a change to statement of intent to undo that.  The most I would allow would be to change to strike at a second adjacent enemy. 

Next question, do the NPC enemies also get to change SOI when the situation changes?  If not, this is just another munchkin push and should go to the munchkinrythread.

On 3/29/2024 at 9:38 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Having said that, I think it is too bad that the question was posed in terms of a generic shaman.  It seems likely to me that most player shamans will be shamans of Waha or of Daka Fal. Either of those has already given parts of his soul to that god, and if she/he/they wants to approach that god the easiest path is through Worship.  The god is already on their side and giving  benefits, too.   If the shaman approaches that god in the spirit world it should be handled as an act of worship.

So the cult shaman's only remaining question is about other gods.  Now, I am not speaking canon here but IMHO a god can probably read a mortal's spirit like a  book (Consider the shamanic powers, then amplify and add for a god.)  . Links to gods will be visible.  So when the Waha shaman approaches another god, the likely reaction will be shown by the cult compatibility table.  

But what about shamans of spirit cults, or completely freelance shamans?  They are not used to dealing with god level spirits, and we should consider that they avoid doing so.  The risk of being gobbled up iby a random god in the spirit world is high.  

 

dou le post. mods please delete.

Having said that, I think it is too bad that the question was posed in terms of a generic shaman.  It seems likely to me that most player shamans will be shamans of Waha or of Daka Fal. Either of those has already given parts of his soul to that god, and if she/he/they wants to approach that god the easiest path is through Worship.  The god is already on their side and giving  benefits, too.   If the shaman approaches that god in the spirit world it should be handled as an act of worship.

So the cult shaman's only remaining question is about other gods.  Now, I am not speaking canon here but IMHO a god can probably read a mortal's spirit like a  book. Links to gods will be visible.  So when the Waha shaman approaches another god, the likely reaction will be shown by the cult compatibility table.  

But what about shamans of spirit cults, or completely freelance shamans?  They are not used to dealing with god level spirits, and we should consider that they avoid doing so.  The risk of being gobbled up by a random god in the spirit world is high.  

 

All right, to the shaman gods are just very powerful spirits with a known agenda.  But the shamanic way is to dominate weak spirits and bargain with strong spirits.  A god must have near infinite power from the shamans perspective.  The shaman has no hope of dominating, and on the bargaining path - what does the god want that the shaman has?  His soul and perhaps some spirits. 

To bargain his soul is to join the god's cult (which some gods will accept). 

Otherwise maybe the shaman had control of a cult spirit, which would be a bargaining chip.  Or maybe the vastly more powerful god doesn't feel like bargaining today, and  will dominate the shaman.  It is risky approaching gods in the spirit world.

 

On 3/18/2024 at 1:47 PM, M Helsdon said:

......

I will create a poster of this picture when sales reach a certain level. Work on the POD may commence in a month or so.

....

That is good news.   Hundreds of us eagerly anticipate the POD.

I am looking at Caladraland as reflected in Tradetalk #5 and also Guide to Glorantha - and trying to project to about 1630 ST, five years after the Dragonrise:

There are a lot of political players in and around Caladraland (see list below) , so what are the likely events and conflicts (adventure hooks)?  There are thousands of ways these players can move.

I have some ideas about how this will turn out, but would like your opinions.

Personally at this point (subject to advice)  I am probably going to go with:

 

◊ The High King of Caladraland tries to find allies where he can and to buy influence internally so that he can stay in office.  Resistance to Solanthi and brown elf raids, and aid to the Hrennan tribe, will build his legitimacy but drain his treasury.  He has essentially no taxing power, but the Mostali are used to dealing through a High King.  He wouldn’t have gotten (or extended his tenure in) his position without Low Temple support, therefore High Temple tries to impede him, and he tries to get friends in the Three Tribes in order to affect High Temple.  He reaches out to the Spear and Plow faction by promising a strong government, but with little success because he also needs foreign help. 

 

◊ Solanthi raids from Maniria into and through Thomble continue.  But without Greymane they don’t have the unity to raise a big army and invade Esrolia again.  

 

◊ The Trader Princes of Maniria  (https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-manirian-road-and-the-trader-princes/  ) try to re-establish dominance over the Solungi and Ditali clans, but have little success in that beyond keeping banditry down.  They are peacefully inclined (trade is more profitable than war), but don’t have their pre-Opening revenue.  They have little interest in common with Nochet except access to Nochet’s markets, because Nochet trades by sea, undercutting the Manirian Road to the West.

 

◊ The Brown Elves of the Arstola forest harass the Solungians (NW Caladralanders) while they also quietly attempt to reforest and dominate Thomble.  Today Thomble, tomorrow the world.

 

◊ The Solungians (NW Caladralanders) look for help to anyone they can:  Esrolia, even Argrath;  and fund themselves through trade from Vinvale.

 

◊ Porthomeca and the Demivierge in Rhigos impede Nochet’s influence “just because” – and because Rhigos competes with Nochet. 

 

◊ The Demivierge doesn’t want to alienate Sartar or Heortland because she wants Sartar’s trade.

 

◊ Nochet / Queen Samastina wants to dominate all of Esrolia and to control exports from Vinvale and Porthomeca, and maintain Nochet’s access to the Caladran timber and obsidian trade.  Therefore Samastina wants to expand her influence in Caladraland but not to fight Rhigos and not have a public falling out with the Esrolian houses who are in the Warm Earth Faction.

 

◊ The Spear and Plow faction attempts to minimize Nochet’s influence, Argrath’s influence, the Demivierge’s influence – and also to resist the Solanthi & Ditali.  They don’t like Brothers of Restorations’s program either.  Isolationists, they are by nature opposed to having foreign allies in the long term, and Caladraland probably can’t resist all the foreign influences without either making some allies or instituting a strong central government.  Therefore they are inclined to support the High King if they can influence him.

 

◊ The Warm Earth Alliance and Rule of Hot Spear factions together resist most things Queen Samastina does.

.◊ Dark Doom faction members will try to kill any trolls (who are in short supply in Caladraland). They will also try to gain influence in Esrolia, however unlikely that may be given that Argan Argar is a Husband-Protector of Ernalda and the Only Old One was attached to Nochet for hundreds of years.

 

◊ Both Esrolian Warm Earth and Old Earth factions will oppose any re-formation of the Solunthi-Ditali alliance, and will send military aid against the Solanthi if asked.  

 

Political players Outside Caladraland:

○The Solanthi-Ditali alliance of Greymane can be expected to have fallen apart after his and his two sons’ deaths at Pennel Ford.  Both those Maniarian valleys were formerly dominated by “western” Trader Princes, and may be again; but there will also be Orlanthi relatives of Graymane (maybe younger sons?) who may demonstrate leadership and legitimacy by resuming raids or warfare against both Caladraland and Esrolia.  Thomble is presumably still depopulated / devastated and subject to their raids, though there is little to loot.

○ The Trader Princes of Maniria.

○ The brown elves of the Arstola Forest NW of Caladraland  (and question; Are there no elves IN Caladraland’s jungle-ey terrain?  Why?  Forests are forests.)

○ Esrolia, ruled by Earth Priestess Queens, with Nochet / Queen Samastina (Old Earth faction) controlling much of the north and Rhigos / the Demivierge of Rhigos (Warm Earth faction) controlling much of the south.

○ Vinvale, which has evidently changed hands between Caladraland and Esrolia, dominated by ethnic  Solungian Caladralanders, and is the source of the famous Vinvale Red wines exported to Esrolia and

thence to Sartar, mentioned in RQG.

○ Porthomeca, another border state “under Calandraland’s influence” whose ruler is titled “Warlord”.

 

Political players Inside Caladraland:  Caladran Factions include:

 

● Policy based factions according to Tradetalk #5:

○ Spear and Plow, want Caladran self-rule, especially popular in western Caladraland.

○ Warm Earth Alliance:  Solungians in Vinvale but also many Esrolian supporters including the Demivierge of Rhigos.  Anti-Lunar, anti Red Earth Alliance in 1615ST.  Politics may be redefining after the Dragonrise and death of Queen Hendira.

○ Brothers of Restoration, most numerous in Vinvale, want to find and revive Belintar.

○ Rule of Hot Spear, want to bring all of Holy Country under Caladran rule.  Members overlap Brothers of Restoration.

○ Dark Doom, want to attack the Shadow Plateau to prevent any troll resurgence.

○ Prayers for Twins: Low Temple priests (but adherents in every temple) who pray that Caladran heroes Moray and Telerio come back. 

 

● The High King, in the traditional but unimpressive palace at Low Temple, who seems to be turning a weak term limited elected office into his own possession for life. 

 

● The High Temple and Low Temple factions of the cult of Caladra and Aurelion, whose political split dates to the Second Age.  The High King must have the support of Low Temple but Low Temple does not need him very much, only uses him as a tool against High Temple.

 

● Tribes: These Include the Ajasi ( sea shore SE of the Vent), Hrennan (living around the Firepit volcano, and raided by Aldryami), Rillani ( SE of the Vent volcano), Holimin (cult of Caladril), The Three Tribes (Carrimin, Kralin and Serronan, around Holy Town), and Solungians (ancient tribal confederation of the Solung Plateau in northern Caladraland). 

 

● The Mostali of Gemborg, inside Caladaraland but not part of it, and somewhat attached to the cult of Caladra and Aurelion, with and through whom they trade.

In my unofficial opinion ( but it worked for my campaign) they don't get the cult skills or magic until after initiation.  The only exception is their first rune spell, when they sac their first POW point to initiate.   Then skills and spells  not all at once, but the cult gives a free accelerated Training program (work half time, train half time] in the first year or two, in cult skills including Worship, and also magic.  

The same with occupational skills, really.  Though a farmer or potter will learn some of the parents" skills in early childhood, a heavy  cavalryman won't. (But once they come of age  the village will train them to fight in the fyrd, the militia.)   And no child has the 75% professional skill level at age 16.  The family and village will train them to be productive adults.

Look at RQG's advice on starting Adventurers younger than age 21.  RQG page 25, top of the right column.

But since your Adventurers will be starting at age 16 and not 21.and adventuring  early, then  by age 21 they should have professional skill levels.  Actual play shows they will be beyond that at age 21 if they live and you challenge them.

The actual pace of the free adulthood training should be adjusted to fit the adventures you plan to give them at ages 17-20, so you don't kill them off unnecessarily.

In th 1625 ST time frame, it dies not make sense for the Kitori to raid your neighbors without provocation or to practise banditry.  They lost the last war very badly and are a shadow of their former strength.  If they antagonize their neighbors the neighbors may combine against them.  It is in their best interest to trade, follow the Argan Argar principle of equal exchange, and do favors which they may redeem in security.

 

2 hours ago, narsilion said:

I dont want to start a new topic, so i add my question here.

Being relatively new to Glorantha, i do not know what does the title "inspiration of Moonson" mean. What is this "inspiration"?

As far as I know, "Inspiration of Moonson" is a title and not an office, though it indicates a close personal relationship..  But what I say is not canon, not Chaosium official material.

5 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Wow! I am impressed.

That's what happens when I try to touch type on my phone.

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Why would anyone want to play in this game?

I mean, if that's what your group wants, then fine. ....

Because the campaign started with a community.  They had several adventures with and for the community in the beginning.  If they left the community it was by necessity, and so they wanted to get back to it.  The adventure seeds are mostly things for the community.  

This does not mean the adventures all  have to be located in one little village.  An example is the Smoking Ruin adventure.  The adventurers are going to do it for the Clearwine Earth temple, and for the Colymsr tribe.  So they go on a fairly long journey....

22 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

....... because even in a fantasy world, no sociopath would become a leader of their community.

Ii am sure that I can cite Real World examples of sociopaths rising to the top.  I don't even have to get into present day political figures.  I can cute as examples some who are dead.  

1 hour ago, Alexandre said:

Hi all,

Hits to arthropods legs and wings don't affect (too much) the total HPs or the functionalities of the creature. Shouldn't it be the same for the tail of reptiles? It can be rendered useless or even severed/maimed, but the creature shouldn't lose general HPs (maybe past the base hit points of the tail). What do you think? I thought this was the rule but actually I can't find it anywhere. 

Cheers,

Alex

As you found, it is not the rule. I don't think tails have ever been an exception.

And it's not " don't affect", it's a limit of GHP taking hit points rather than double hit points for legs.

The arthropod rule on legs is because they have so many that the general hit point idea will break down without the exception as written in the Bestiary.

I don't have a problem with tails as they are.  Have been running Stone and Bone recently and the combat results for scorpion man tails do not rub me wrong.

 

 

 

But back to the original topic: Of course Greymane might have a third or 4th son.... and certainly  will have a clan full of cousins.  So likely someone who might want to show legitimacy by continuing to raid Caladraland and maybe Esrolia.

 

 

On 3/7/2024 at 2:53 PM, Geoff R Evil said:

Might be about to define that…our GM is about to run Pennel Ford as a battle in which our rune levels just disrupted the yelmic rituals the day before. Now preparing to fly over the battle and seek to use Battle skill to follow the fight, so if we spot Greymanes defection we will be dealing with it….happy to define here what happens, if anything. Should occur next week or the week afte I hope.

My vague recollection about Pennel Ford  is that Harrek attacked Greymane and his army when they turned their coats.  If that is reflected in your game, the players may be cleaning up after Harrek. or if they swoop down first he saves their asses.    ? Perhaps develop  Loyalty (Wolf Pirates)?

 

 

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Hmmm, not keen on that, sure it might be realistic but in game terms taking a character's stuff is generally a big no-no. Great way to lose friends.

Surrendering has to have some downside.   

Slaughtering the enemy til their bodies are piled waist  high and then getting away with saying "my ransom is 500L" when you clearly have thousands of Lunars worth of iron and magic?    Not believable.

And it's pretty hard to keep someone captive when they still hold their magic sword, teleportation matrix, and Sandals of Darkness.  It just doesn't make sense for the captors NOT to take it.  Giving it back is to be negotiated.  

 

Looking at this from the Well of Daliath

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/west-of-esrolia-four-orlanthi-tribal-confederations/

For the context of my campaign now in 1630 ST,

So who are the heirs of Greymane?

To be written?  

And when Greymsbe's Ditali- Solanthi alliance collapses, what is the status of the Trader Princes?  When Greymane was alive, what was the status of te Trader Princes (besides declining economically after the Opening of the seas?)