Jape_Vicho

The new and absolutely gorgeous sneak peeks of the Cult Book's Divine Genealogies (which you can see at the Well of Daliath or Katrim Dirim's Twitter) got me thinking: are there any known sons of Yelmalio, either with Ernalda or with other goddesses?

By myself I have only found one candidate, Minlister. According to the wiki, Minlister, god of Brewing, is a son of Elmal, and in Katrim's Earth goddesses WIP it appears as a son of Ernalda with neither Orlanth, Hykim, Yelm or Flamal. But from the texts it really seems more connected to Orlanth and the LB than to Yelmalio. 

Question: Have you ever used other geases than those on the books? If so, which ones?

It doesn't appear to have any name in any released map that I know of, but it's the center of the Odanog (Odonog?) clan of the Kultain tribe, and as many sartarite villages have the name of their clan, it's a possible option.

When I first saw Odayla I thought it was pretty limited and not much fun to play. Foundchild seems like a better hunting god but I'm adamant that in my Gloratha he is not worshiped in Sartar bc it just seems dumb to have it once you already have Odayla AND Yinkin (which is not exactly a hunting god but it's close). My solution is actually just written in the rulebook but for some reason not developed, and it's simply that "Odayla is often worshiped as a subcult of the Orlanth cult." (RQG, p. 300). Odayla already gives even less Rune Spells than Adventurous or Thunderer on their own, so it doesn't make it OP at all, it just makes it more versatile and, imho, realistic, as it changes from being a cult that only hunting-obsessed Orlanthi would choose to follow to one of the many aspects of Orlanth one can choose to focus on, and would allow clans and tribes that mainly live off of hunting and foraging to do that without losing their connection with the storm god.

Essentialy my changes are to add the "Special Rune Magic (all subcults)" from Orlanth to Odayla's Rune Magic pool, to replace the Associated Cults with those of Orlanth EXCEPT for Ernalda, which is changed for the Lady of the Wilds, as it's his mother and also hunters are not connected as much as farmers and herders to the powers of Earth ( also I wouldn't take Foundchild and DF as associated, I don't get why is Odayla associated at all with ancestor worship and Foundchild is just an analog in another society), but leave the rest, including the Spirit Magic, the same. At the moment I would do Barntar and Voriof the same way, we still don't have the yearned Cults book so my take can change but that's my current opinion on the matter.

Hi and welcome

Starting with the Starter Set is a very good idea indeed, they link well with the GM pack adventures, and don't forget to take a look at the Quickstart, The Broken Tower, available in the Chaosium page, and the free adventure, The Rattling Wind, also in Chaosium page, if you haven't already.

For when you get to the GM's pack I recommend reading through these reviews by Skull Dixon, they offer very interesting knowledge and ways to improve the games. 

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Nevertheless, all players in the campaign deciding their characters are orphans would indicate this GM has a track record of using family history ties as adventure hooks too often for the players' taste. 

If you say that for my previous post, all family deaths of the first example came from the known meat grinder that is the family history charts.

11 hours ago, Dissolv said:

This is the central point though.  The GM can use the personal tragedy of the characters to push the plot along, but the players steadfastly refuse to care about the NPC's, and are 100% intolerant of their character having any sort of suffering as they game away the years....what then? 

Depends on the players and GM. I, for one, know that me and all of my group wouldn't enjoy that kind of behavior, so we wouldn't play together anymore with that person. No shame on those who play that way, it's just not our style. But if most of your players straight-up refuse and is your only group... it's a difficult situation that needs to be talked openly.

2 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

But what were your players aiming for? Feels like bit of a railroad. 

My players were aiming for following the story, the story is a tragedy. I did not force anything on them that was not scripted in the module itself. 

For me tragedies are great and an almost needed plot point in any character. In my last RQ campaign, all the characters had suffered great losses before the games. One had his whole hometown murdered bc of the duck hunt, other 2 had their parents executed by lunars, and the fourth lost a great deal of friends in a scorpionmen raid, of course he was a troll so his loss wasn't experienced in the same way as the humans'. When I ran Six Seasons in Sartar, previous to that, a great deal of tragedy happened to all characters, I won't go into detail bc of spoilers, but the end was a great tragedy for all, even if it was technically one of the "better endings", which was at what I was aiming for after all.

No canonical snake-men AFAIK but there is the Stoorworms, which are chaos-corrupted dragonkind. They have no legs or arms so they look like snakes but huge, with draconic heads and poison breath. They are pretty formidable, luckily they also have no intelligence (Glorantha Bestiary, p. 105). Also even though broos are usually depicted goat-like or at least mammal-like, there should be plenty snake-like (and anything-like) broos too.

For me it has to be:

-The chapter in King of Sartar about that weird memory wiping event. I read it through and through and didn't understand a single thing. Now, more than a year after I read the book, it looms in my mind as a weird hazy thought that you don't really know if it was real or dreamed.

-The whole Nysalor/Gbaji/Arkat dynamic. That thing broke my brain when I first entered this community. Now I kinda make sense of it, or at least I have made up a sense.

-The Cult of Silence of Fonrit and Umathela. That thing is just straight-up bizarre. A cult of madmen who declared a crusade in order to make the whole world silenced led by monks who extirpated their vocal cords. 

17 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For GMs who have dealt with Yelmalian PCs (or other "weaker" cults), what have you done to make those players feel more relevant?  Lots of stuff at night?  Anything else?

Had a Yelmalion from the Elmal subcult (I made it myself and it was sort of a worse version of Yelmalio with some horse magic) when playing the GM Adventure Pack. He had no feelings of irrelevancy whatsoever. Two of his companions were a Humakti duck and a very strong troll, who were far more brutal in combat than him, but he was not a magikarp either, he had a trusty composite bow in which he was pretty efficient. 

I always try to make a sort of subplot for each character to develop on its own and have some spotlight.

If you are out of the Empire, definitely Seven Mothers (or other lunar cults). Most people hate you and most of your spirit magic is costlier, so you better make good use of that Befuddle Spell, which, luckily for the loonies, it's one of the best spells in all RQ. OFC I'm not counting chaotic cults (or am I), bc if you are an Initiate of Thed and run out of RP in hostile territory, you better pray.

And yes, I think ppl put too much importance in the RS, I know they are the "Big Guns", but in my short experience as GM they are overall less useful than SM spells. All Lightbringers are absolute beasts in SM bc of the great net of cult associations, and Ernalda shows here why she is such an important cult in Theyalan societies, bc she has great SM which she gladly shares with all her husband-protectors. 

On 5/28/2022 at 10:50 AM, soltakss said:

That is how I have always used it.

Just curious, when you do gifts of Yelmalio, do you let the player choose the gift? 

(I know it's not on topic but i'ts related and I don't want to create ANOTHER Yelmalio thread)

23 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

When I first saw it I thought it might be a hardback with a dustjacket :-). I'm assuming not but I hope the binding doesn't fall apart like my old copy of MIG II 🙂

Is there anything else that can be shared about it right now, even just a tiny little teaser?

What's a MIG?

I think Esrolians are supposed to make up their armies mostly with mercenaries, so I'd think most Yelmalions in the HC must be that, pikes for pay from Vaantar (most of them), southern Peloria and Mo Baustra. Of course there'll be some locals to but a minority, mostly passing mercenaries or former ones that decided to stay and form families. This would make for very interesting campaigns with a party of Yelmalions, maybe employed by Samastia to solve some problems and cement her rule in post-war HC. 

As for the rest of Kethaela, in Heortland most sun-worshippers emigrated north after the take-up of the Pharaoh, that's why there are so many Yelmalions in Sartar, bc they (well, their Elmali forefathers but potato potato) were the ones who emigrated the most (also I suppose that the influence of Monrogh might have converted some, but in my headcanon most Yelmalions in Sartar come from long dinasties of sun-lovers), and almost none remain. What I don't get from this is why the old Heortling Elmali decided to flee from Belintar, I get that the Hendriki were friends with Ezkankkeko but you would think that a country without an Uz demigod overlord would be better for the sun-lovers? Well that's how it is anyway, I guess Yelmalions can be even more stubborn and hostile to change than the Orlanthi, even if it could be for their best. 

Also I love the idea that Lodril kinda takes Yelmalio's niche in Esrolia and Caladraland, even though they have very different cults and personalities, an Orlanthi society can only take so much sun-worship, and two major cults would be too much. 

Okay so three things:

1) I'll assume by the lack of answer to my original question, that the answer is "no", and that the cult distribution is pretty much the same than the one Sun County presented. 

2) Very interesting stuff about the oasis people, I like the saman idea. In that case, we could say that Daka Fal is an important cult right? If they have almost no gods but only themselves and the spirits, the Daka Fal cult would fit them perfectly.

3) This was not included in my original question but fits the thread nonetheless. In the Sun County book we are told that there are " a few Lunar expatriate families" who reside in the County and "still revere Yelm the Fiary Father, and can claim certain prerogarives". I wonder which prerogatives are those, I assume they are linked to the relation of reverence and respect that the Yelmalio cult holds towards Yelm, and thus my guess is that it means that they are honored guests in Yelmalion rituals and treated with respect even though they are outsiders, and this probably even improves the magic mo Mo Baustra, bc of all that "if Above so Below".

What I've quoted is as much as the book says about those Dara Happan families which reside in the County, but of course, with (almost) every Yelm worshipper there has to be a Dendara worshipper, and there is according to the Cult Membership chart, which puts a 2% chance to each, which would mean that there are about 760 individuals in Sun County Prax, including children, who are Dara Happan. This is a minority, but is the biggest religious minority in Sun County, and thus cannot be ignored easily. 

The question is, if there are about 500 adult Dara Happans in Sun County, what is their livelyhood? Bc as we know, the Yelm-Dendara cults are the aristocracy of Dara Happa; there, their work (well, more like Yelm's work) is to manage the local Lodril worshipping farming communities, collect taxes, redistribute gains, invest in infraestructure, defend... Well, what bronze age aristrocacies used to do. The "lowest" of the yelmites I can see being little more than household warriors, tax collectors, or local headmen, maybe even crafters, but they most definitely don't farm. But the Sun Counties (at least Mo Baustra) are very different from Dara Happa; in Mo Baustra (almost) every family is a family of free farmers who toll a land directly given by the temple, and they only have to pay taxes and aswer to the priests there. In that case, where do the Dara Happans fit? How do they earn the money they need to sustain their (costly) standard of living?

Jeff posted in December in Facebook:

Quote

Cult Demographics for Civilized Prax

I’ve been fine-tuning some of the cult demographic numbers for Pavis County and the Sun County. As of 1626, there are about 25,650 humans residing in Pavis County – this includes Argrath’s companions but does not include those nomadic bands that might winter in Pavis County. There are about 19,000 humans residing in Sun County.

The biggest cults are:

• Ernalda 5325 (with another 4375 who are mere initiates of the Grain Goddess for a total of 9700)
• Yelmalio 4900 (575 in Pavis County and 4375 in Sun County)
• Orlanth 4700 (all in Pavis County)
• Zola Fel 3500 (1500 in Pavis County and 2000 in Sun County)
• Pavis himself has about 1000 initiates.

Now Orlanth punches higher than that, if you add the 650 Humakti and 550 Storm Bull cultists in Pavis County (many of whom are sworn to Argrath), and the other Lightbringer cults.

But it does give you an idea of the relative numbers of the various cults. Post the Liberation of Pavis, the Seven Mothers cult is very small, only about 500 members, and all in Pavis County).

---

For a point of comparison, in all all of Sartar (including Far Point and Sun County County) there are 6525 Yelmalio cultists. Of that, 2700 are in Sun Dome County and 1725 in the Far Point. There are more Yelmalio cultists in New Pavis than in Alda-Chur, but the Alda-Churi can also call on the 1000 Yelmalio cultists in the Vantaros tribe.

So let’s just ignore the Yelmalio cult in Tarsh, and focus on the cult in Sartar and Civilised Prax.The cult in Sartar is about a quarter bigger and is definitely richer. The Sun Dome Templars in Sartar are definitely more militarily skilled and disciplined. But they also must deal with a far more powerful and established Orlanth cult. It may be autonomous, but generally the Sun Dome is an ally of the Prince of Sartar. In Sartar, the Sun Dome and Varntaros are effectively just two more tribes among many.

The cult in Civilised Prax is smaller, but can approach the Orlanth cult as a peer. They are objectively weaker than the Sun Dome templars in Sartar but compared to their neighbours they are much stronger. They can be far more independent and autonomous than their kin in Sartar. And within Sun County, the cult is far more dominant than in Sartar. In Sun County, the traditional “Ernalda cult” is effectively a Grain Goddess cult and is long-tied to Yelmalio – but in Sartar, the Ernalda cult can always call upon the Orlanth cult for protection and support, and has ties to Esrolia.

So even though they are the same cult, worshiping the same god with the same myths and rules, the cults behave differently.

The Big Rubble has several other cults of importance:

• Pavis 500
• Black Fang 250+
• Kyger Litor 500 (plus numerous lay members)
• Zorak Zoran 150
• Argan Argar 50
• Aldrya 1000
• Thed 200
• Mallia 175

That being said, Sun Dome County in Sartar maintains close religious and cultural ties to Sun County in civilised Prax. Two of the last three counts of Sun County have been Sartarite, and Yelmalio cult in Sun County was among the first to follow Monrogh’s vision (after the Sun Dome itself).

All the post is very interesting and you can find it here https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/facebook/2022-01-jeff-on-facebook/ , but something in particular has piked my interest and is the numbers for Yelmalio and Ernalda in Sun County Prax. Considering the population of the county, which is around 19.000 as it's statet there and on the Guide, of which around 2/3 are adults, so around 12.667 then. If the cults of Yelmalio and Ernalda together have 8750 members, which is around 35% each, then there is some degree of change from the original cult distribution on the Sun County book, which made each 40%. Does this means that there are some cults in Mo Baustra that break the 1% mark and were not present in the Sun County book (besides Zola Fel)? Sorry if it's just WIP and the exact numbers don't say anything, but I would love some more diversity in the Sun Dome and this maybe means that.

Also, are other Sun Domes less religiously homogenous than Mo Baustra or just as much?

And do we know which are the preferred deities of the Oasis People? I'm sure Eiritha is the main one but it's a mainly femenine deity, there has to be one that speaks to the males too, and I don't think they worship Waha or Storm Bull, no one wants slaves worshipping warrior gods (unless those slaves are mamluks of sorts of course, but Prax is not Fonrit).

The only weird thing with all this is how the praxian tribes are described and drawn very differently from each other. 

Does the High Llama people come from Krarorela? Are the Impala and Ostrich tribes Agimori? How do they maintain their different complexions if they have been interbreeding since the tribes were founded, is there magic involved in that? Like, a male Bison Rider marries a female Sable Rider and goes to live with them and they have a child and then some magical Waha stuff happens and their child is a perfectly looking Sable Rider?

Also, the Lunar Provinces chart is very interesting. Looking at it, it seems that the most popular cults among provincial warriors/soldiers would be Seven Mothers (through Yanafal Tarnils), Yelmalio and Hwarin Dalthippa.

We know that Orlanth is mostly worshipped in the Provinces through Barntar and Thunderous, which are less "warriory" than Adventurous, but are there any Orlanth initiates serving in the provincial armies? Or do the lunar authorities tend to put them as away from weapons and military training as possible?

Also, what about Humakt? He is a small cult in Sartar but if my math is right the fact that he doesn't appear on the list means that his cult is around less than 1% of the total adult population, which is far less than in Sartar. Is he even worshipped at all? On a similar note, which is the position of Humakt in the Heartlands? Is he recognized as Death like the Orlanthi recognize Yelm as the Sun but don't worship him? Or do they have their own way of looking at Death?

Which are the runic affinities of Surenslib?

43 minutes ago, Jeff said:

OK, there's maybe 100 or so wagoneers in Sun County. They mainly carry grain upriver to New Pavis - initially to feed the Lunar garrison, now to feed Argrath's army. They likely came with the Lunar conquest in 1610 and have become a feature in Sun County. 

Oh so the restriction on trading only through the Lokarnos cult and the usage of Wheels as only coin are recent additions in Mo Baustra? I thought those were standard practices thoughout all Sun Counties. In that case, is the cult of Issaries still practiced in Sun County Prax (or was it before those changes were introduced)?

5 hours ago, Alexaco said:

My little grain of sand for the Spanish translation (may have some problems with Spain-Spanish/Latin-American-Spanish, tried to use the most neutral terms):

English	Translation
Hatchet	Hachuela (?)
Pick-axe, Small	Pico-Hacha Pequeño
Pick-axe, Large	Pico-Hacha Grande
Lunar Crescent-axe	Hacha-Creciente Lunar
Orlanthi Broad-axe	Hacha-Ancha Orlanthi
Pick	Pico
Wood Axe	Hacha de Leñador
Esrolian Knife	Cuchillo Esroliano
Flensing Knife	Cuchillo para Desollar
Stone Knife	Cuchillo de Piedra
Armored Glove	Guantelete
Knuckle Strip	Cinta para Nudillos (?)
Wrist Wrappings	Vendaje de Muñecas (?)
Boot Blade	Cuchilla de Bota
Head Butt (Minotaur)	Cabezazo (Minotauro)
Hammer	Martillo
Great Club	Garrote Grande
Pole Hammer	Martillo de Poste (?)
Trident	Tridente
Fork	Horca (?)
Pole-sword	Guja
Sword Staff	Espada de Bastón (?)
Trident	Tridente
Lasso	Lazo
Combat Net	Red de Combate
Large Combat Net	Red de Combate Grande
Rope Dart	Dardo con Cuerda
Throwing Hook	Gancho Arrojadizo
Lash	Azote
Whip	Látigo
Long Chain	Cadena Larga
Spiked Chain	Cadena con Pinchos (?)
Falx	?
Halberd	Alabarda
Moon Blade	Espada de Luna (?)
Pole-axe	Hacha de Asta
Pole-hook	Garfio de Asta (?)
Missile Weapon	Arma de Misil
Long Bow	Arco Largo
Horse Bow	Arco de Caballeria
Medium Crossbow	Ballesta Mediana
Stone Bow	Arco de Piedras
Pistol Crossbow	Ballesta Pistola
Amentum	Amentum
Lanyard Dart	?
Feathered Dart	Dardo Emplumado
Kestros	Kestros
Hunting Boomerang	Búmeran de Caza
War Boomerang	Búmeran de Guerra
Dart, Small	Dardo Pequeño
Thrown Club	Garrote Arrojadizo
Thrown Spike	Púa Arrojadizo (?)
Throwing Star	Estrella Arrojadiza
Throwing Ring	Anillo Arrojadizo
Bola	Boleadora
Thrown Net	Red Arrojadiza

Shields

English	Translation
Apron	Delantal
Bladed Shield, Small	Escudo Afilado Pequeño
Bronze Shield, Hand	Escudo de Mano de Bronce
Bronze Shield, Small	Escudo de Bronce Pequeño
Hide Shield, Large	Escudo de Piel Grande
Hide Shield, Medium	Escudo de Piel Mediano
Hide Shield, Small	Escudo de Piel Pequeño
Insect Carapace Shield, Medium	Escudo de Caparazón de Insecto Mediano
Spiked Shield, Medium	Escudo con Púas Mediano (?)
Spiked Shield, Small	Escudo con Púas Pequeño
Turtleshell Shield, Small	Escudo de Caparazón de Tortuga Pequeño
Wicker Shield, Extra-Large	Escudo de Mimbre Extra-Grande
Wicker Shield, Large	Escudo de Mimbre Grande
Wicker Shield, Medium	Escudo de Mimbre Mediano
Wooden Shield, Large	Escudo de Madera Grande
Wooden Shield, Medium	Escudo de Madera Mediano
Wooden Shield, Small	Escudo de Madera Pequeño

I'm quoting to put my own gran of sand.

-Hatchet: in peninsular spanish it would definitely be Hacha de Mano, but maybe in some parts of latin america it's called hachuela IDK.

-Pick-axe: is not a pick and and axe but really just the average farm pick, to distinguish it from the "Pico" I would put Zapapico.

-Pole hammer: I would say that's a Lucerne.

-Sword staff: minor nitpick but I would put Espada-Baston.

-Falx: this is a difficult one. The difference between the "falx", the "rhomphaia" and the "sica" is very small and it doesn't help that the falx is usually translated in spanish as "Falcata", which is also what we call here the weapon RQ calls "Kopis", adding to the confusion. In historical matters we can simply say "Falcata dacia" to distinguish it from the regular falcata which for us is obviously the iberian one and be done with it, but you can't mention the dacians in RQ. I would simply go with Falx, but I'm no translator so don't take me too seriously.

-Missile weapon: Arma arrojadiza.

-Stone Bow: I think that's not refering to a bow literally made of stone but to a stone (or pellet) shooting crossbow, kind of like a super-slingshot ("tirachinas" here, but I'm certain that in latin america it's called by a million other names), and in spanish it's usually called Ballesta de Perdigón.

-Landyard Dart: I don't even know what that is supposed to be, let alone translating it.

-Thrown Spike: Púa Arrojadiza. 

I wonder if the developers have thought about making some of the named non-player knights women. Like for example Gawain, to name one, could be more or less the same, but being a woman. It might be problematic in some cases as many named Arthurian knights have storylines that include romance with women, and having a gay woman knight might be a little too wild, but well, we have dragons too so, why not? And also, if there are no named non-player knights, which are the most numerous and important npcs, Pendragon could never be totally egalitarian in terms of gender, which is the place a lot of modern TTRPGs are going for today. 

21 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes.

It can be played in a few different ways depending upon your preference.

1) Kangharl / Korlmhy is simply a ruthless ambitious man.

Kangharl was adventurous (participated in the events of Greg's pre-Starbrow Rebellion campaign).  He helped raise the Colymar against the Lunars.  When defeated, he went into exile.  Depending on how you read the Colymar lineage in GM Adventure's p.21, some of his family may have been taken hostage by the Lunars to ensure he did not rebel further.  While in exile, his cousin Leika, who he probably does not like, takes the Colymar throne.  He is angered by this, and comes to an agreement with the Lunars where he gets the kingship in return for Lunar support and favors.  He rules harshly for 10 years, and takes his revenge upon those who supported Leika, particularly within his own Taraling clan.  This is largely the version presented in SKoH and the GM Adventure text on p.10-12.

2) Kangharl / Korlmhy is a Lunar puppet or tragic figure.

Kangharl was adventurous (participated in the events of Greg's pre-Starbrow Rebellion campaign).  He helped raise the Colymar against the Lunars.  When defeated, he went into exile, and Leika became King in the aftermath.  The Lunars did not like Leika.  They coerced Kangharl through the use of hostages to challenge, overthrow, and exile Leika, which he did.  The Lunars continued to manipulate and use Kangharl to advance their position while his family remained hostages (probably in Furthest).  Kangharl may be a puppet who takes out his frustrations with the Lunars against his clan.  Or may just do what he's told like Temertain.  Or is a tragic figure trying to find a way to save his family. 

You can then choose whether Kangharl is the family man in the lineage, or the brother of the Lunar hostages (i.e. wicked uncle, wandering "hero", etc.).

And what about him finding the light of the Lunar Way at the defeat of the rebellion just like Beat-Pot in the webcomic?

3 hours ago, metcalph said:

Yeas, the oddity is why a Yelmalion would have worshippers of Gargarth as his thanes.  I myself think it a slur  or comment about his thanes tactics that misread as a comment about the religion of his thanes.  Shades of the Thuggee here.

Make sense, also as the pro-lunar side of the conflict was called "Moon Storm", by the "righteous winders" I think it's very possible too that the yelmalion element of that rebellion is greatly exaggerated, as the name (and the importance given to the "wind walkers") suggests that in both sides the main party were Orlanth-worshippers. So it's not a Yelmalio vs Orlanth thing, but a pro-lunar Aldachuri clans vs pro-sartarite Aldachuri clans.