Alternate supers

[HANZO]

Not sure why but basing character points off your highest characteristic score doesn't sit right with me. And I feel using power point to fuel them is just a bit limited. Other wise Ive got to spent character points to get more power points.

Here is how I plan to use supers. Character points to buy powers will always be based on power (not your highest characteristic). super human level is powerx5, this is to average it out a bit since It is too easy to just load up on power.

Rather than power points, powers will be powered by fatigue.

(maybe use power points for lower power settings and fatigue for more superhuman level games.)

that's it.

Edited April 18, 2009 by HANZO

[pulpcitizen]

Not sure why but basing character points off your highest characteristic score doesn't sit right with me. And I feel using power point to fuel them is just a bit limited. Other wise Ive got to spent character points to get more power points.

Here is how I plan to use supers. Character points to buy powers will always be based on power (not your highest characteristic). super human level is powerx5, this is to average it out a bit since It is too easy to just load up on power.

Rather than power points, powers will be powered by fatigue.

(maybe use power points for lower power settings and fatigue for more superhuman level games.)

that's it.

The immediate downsides that occur to me are:

1. if you don't allow attribute scores to be assigned, there could be really big variance between characters due to what POW they have, even if you allow the higher starting characteristics option; furthermore POW becomes the 'one stat to rule them all' if you do allow allocation, which I think Jason has stated he tried to avoid - effectively everyone will possibly be running around with a similar POW score.

2. if dropping power points, what about extending the fatigue in a similar fashion to power points (Extra Fatigue?), because if not players may look to increase fatigue through other means: which has a knock-on effect - suddenly everyone is buying Super CON because it becomes very valuable (resistance vs some potencies; HP and thus major wound threshold which in turn determines knock out threshold which is a useful supers spot rule; and then fatigue as a very valuable commodity/resource amongst other factors).

Edited April 20, 2009 by leonmallett

[HANZO]

The immediate downsides that occur to me are:

1. if you don't allow attribute scores to be assigned, there could be really big variance between characters due to what POW they have, even if you allow the higher starting characteristics option; furthermore POW becomes the 'one stat to rule them all' if you do allow allocation, which I think Jason has stated he tried to avoid - effectively everyone will possibly be running around with a similar POW score.

How is that different that pumping up any stat you choose to base it on. Im not sure I like 18+ appearance being the source of my powers. If every one has one huge stat how is it any different. At least power is mostly useless for anything else. and totally useless really if your powers are based on your very high level appearance.

Luckily I don't have power gamers in my group, and don't have a lot of concern about abuse.

2. if dropping power points, what about extending the fatigue in a similar fashion to power points (Extra Fatigue?), because if not players may look to increase fatigue through other means: which has a knock-on effect - suddenly everyone is buying Super CON because it becomes very valuable (resistance vs some potencies; HP and thus major wound threshold which in turn determines knock out threshold which is a useful supers spot rule; and then fatigue as a very valuable commodity/resource amongst other factors).

How is this any different than buying extra power points. which at the beginning of supers almost tells you have to buy to be able to use your powers very often. I just figured with a larger pool this may be avoided some.

If you start with a low power say for example 8, because you chose to base you powers off your 18 strength. now you are forced to spend a good chunk of your point pool buying up power points so you can use your ability more than twice with out running out of power points. So I get more points. But im almost forced to waist most of them, not sure I like that.

Isn't basing you power point pool off of an already useful stat double dipping? especially a combat useful stat. now iv got a strength of an Olympic power lifter. And more power points for min/max'in my way to higher strength and hopefully a better damage bonus at the same time?

I understand the concern with basing it on one stat. But find the alternative a bit wonky and less balanced. Not that I care as much for balance, But I'm no fan of wonky!

[pulpcitizen]

How is that different that pumping up any stat you choose to base it on. Im not sure I like 18+ appearance being the source of my powers. If every one has one huge stat how is it any different. At least power is mostly useless for anything else. and totally useless really if your powers are based on your very high level appearance.

It isn't any different to basing it on any one attribute - whichever attribute you choose becomes the most valuable by default. What the pool approach does is flatten out the need to focus on one stat since any can generate the requisite character points. It isn't that being more attractive makes you more powerful, rather that there was a hook to hang the size of character points pool onto.

It is your game to rule and house rule as you want to.

Consider combining another system with the super powers (magic or psionics or both) and you will see that for some characters POW becomes very valuable, whilst other charcters have other attributes of value.

Luckily I don't have power gamers in my group, and don't have a lot of concern about abuse.

Good to hear.

How is this any different than buying extra power points. which at the beginning of supers almost tells you have to buy to be able to use your powers very often. I just figured with a larger pool this may be avoided some.

Only game play will tell. Try to figure out what totals fatigue pools will feature (probably in the 25-40 range for most), and compare that to common powers.

A 6D6 Energy Projection will eat through 25-40 fatigue in 4-7 rounds, less if the (very) expensive reduced power (fatigue) point modifier is taken. Fine if you want a game that features fast-paced action that ends quickly, not so fine when trying to simulate the protracted slugfest.

If you start with a low power say for example 8, because you chose to base you powers off your 18 strength. now you are forced to spend a good chunk of your point pool buying up power points so you can use your ability more than twice with out running out of power points. So I get more points. But im almost forced to waist most of them, not sure I like that.

Maybe you need to consider what you want to achieve and why. Is the current example so broken that you don't like it, or is it a question of how the rule 'feels'?

If the latter then maybe think of using an arbitary pool size, maybe just topped up by the POW charcteristic: eg instead of 5 x POW, instead you could use 50 + POW (or 40 + POW or whatever). With this method there will less extremes of potential difference (using the higher starting Characteristics rule and assigned option, and the choice to shuffle three points around yields a range of 8-21, meaning in you x 5 suggestion pools ranging from 40 points to 105 points - make a couple of character archetypes with both extremes to see the reality of this difference).

Isn't basing you power point pool off of an already useful stat double dipping? especially a combat useful stat. now iv got a strength of an Olympic power lifter. And more power points for min/max'in my way to higher strength and hopefully a better damage bonus at the same time?

It is. It was your suggestion, not mine to use Fatigue. I am just pointing out that STR and CON become much more important with the Fatigue option.

I understand the concern with basing it on one stat. But find the alternative a bit wonky and less balanced. Not that I care as much for balance, But I'm no fan of wonky!

Actually balance is an overated issue in any RPG since true balance is impossible and is an idea people get hung up on. But that is a debate for another day.

You say you are concerned about balance yet favour an approach that potentially allows the best result to have more than 150% more character point resources than the worst; or to put it another way - the worst result has only two fifths the resources of the best result.

Edited April 20, 2009 by leonmallett

[HANZO]

At least on paper I still like using power for character points. For characteristics I often give a spread to be assigned based on the setting. Or point buy. If the player wants to place most his points in power to get more points so be it. If every one does do it (which with my group I doubt it) then again that is balanced lol.

The idea of ramping up power points I like. Since the low amount of them is what I didn't care for in the rules as written, Forcing me to buy more just to use powers. My group is getting together tomorrow, well give it a play through.

Edited April 20, 2009 by HANZO

[Harvey Walters]

At least on paper I still like using power for character points. For characteristics I often give a spread to be assigned based on the setting.

In the designer's notes for Superworld 1st edition, Steve Perrin wrote that he

originally intended to have three types of hero/villain, acrobat, inventor, and

superhuman. Each would get points to purchase powers based on a stat and

a multiplier: acrobats would get DEX x 5 points, inventors INT x 5 points, and

true superhumans get POW x 5 points. He discarded the idea after

considering characters like Batman, who is both an acrobat and an inventor,

and went with build points equal to the total of the character's seven

characteristics (STR, CON, etc.).

I think you could do a variation of his original idea that has some merits:

1. Players roll stats as normal (2D6+6 for Superworld).

2. Characters have a total multiplier of 7, which can be apportioned out

to their characteristics as the player desires. So a player wishing to

make a mentalist might use all 7 multipliers on his character's INT score

(INT x 7 points). An inventor/acrobat might use DEX x 4 + INT x 3 (4 +

3 = 7), etc.

There would be different types of characters based on different stats:

STR: strongmen, warriors

CON: bricks, mutants

SIZ: giants/bricks

INT: inventors, mentalists

POW: magicians, those with innate powers

DEX: acrobats, speedsters

APP: illusionists, controllers

Players could be given the option to choose any power they can describe as

appropriate to their character concepts (effects based powers), or the GM

may wish to come up with lists of powers that are available to the different

character types (with or without some overlap of availability among types).

Michael (and his two cents)

[Nightshade]

In the designer's notes for Superworld 1st edition, Steve Perrin wrote that he

originally intended to have three types of hero/villain, acrobat, inventor, and

superhuman. Each would get points to purchase powers based on a stat and

This is actually a variant on what the old system Superhero 2044 did, except it called them ubermensch, toolmasters and uniques. The problem is that its easy to have characters that land twixt and tween. Blue Beetle is an acrobat/inventor, as is Batman to at least some degree; Spider-Man (at least the usual comics version) is an inventor/superhuman. Iron Fist is an acrobat/superhuman.

The reason most superhero games avoid anything resembling character classes is that superheroes resist any sort of tight pidgeonholing even more than most fictional characters.

[HANZO]

In the designer's notes for Superworld 1st edition, Steve Perrin wrote that he

originally intended to have three types of hero/villain, acrobat, inventor, and

superhuman. Each would get points to purchase powers based on a stat and

a multiplier: acrobats would get DEX x 5 points, inventors INT x 5 points, and

true superhumans get POW x 5 points. He discarded the idea after

considering characters like Batman, who is both an acrobat and an inventor,

and went with build points equal to the total of the character's seven

characteristics (STR, CON, etc.).

I think you could do a variation of his original idea that has some merits:

1. Players roll stats as normal (2D6+6 for Superworld).

2. Characters have a total multiplier of 7, which can be apportioned out

to their characteristics as the player desires. So a player wishing to

make a mentalist might use all 7 multipliers on his character's INT score

(INT x 7 points). An inventor/acrobat might use DEX x 4 + INT x 3 (4 +

3 = 7), etc.

There would be different types of characters based on different stats:

STR: strongmen, warriors

CON: bricks, mutants

SIZ: giants/bricks

INT: inventors, mentalists

POW: magicians, those with innate powers

DEX: acrobats, speedsters

APP: illusionists, controllers

Players could be given the option to choose any power they can describe as

appropriate to their character concepts (effects based powers), or the GM

may wish to come up with lists of powers that are available to the different

character types (with or without some overlap of availability among types).

Michael (and his two cents)

I guess that makes a lot more sense. From a power source standpoint. Although I cant think of many comic book supers who would fall into a single power sources. At least not one that is not a one trick pony. Although Mixing two or more characteristics would work for some. Good Idea. Still not sure if I like the approach over just using power. Im going to have to put it to some play tests.

[pulpcitizen]

Not sure why but basing character points off your highest characteristic score doesn't sit right with me. And I feel using power point to fuel them is just a bit limited. Other wise Ive got to spent character points to get more power points.

Here is how I plan to use supers. Character points to buy powers will always be based on power (not your highest characteristic). super human level is powerx5, this is to average it out a bit since It is too easy to just load up on power.

Rather than power points, powers will be powered by fatigue.

(maybe use power points for lower power settings and fatigue for more superhuman level games.)

that's it.

Did you get around to trying your system out?