Book of Estate, Where is "Stones"?

[Atgxtg]

In the Book of the Estate, page 94, under the entry for WEIR, KYDELL it states that the Thames counts as Huge " upriver to Stones", and Large "from Stones to Oxen Ford". The place index in the bake of BoE lists a Stone, Hantone as Stoeham but that's not on the Thames. 

I'm pretty certain that Oxen Ford is Oxford, but an unsure as to where Stones is. Is is Stains (Stanes, Pontibus) in Surrey?

One of the  PKs was awarded a manor for their part in March of Aurelius, and random rolls in the Book of Knights & Ladies reveal said manor to be in Stains, Surrey (perfect as they were a Berroc Saxon). So I need to figure out what size the river is at Stains, ha, for purposes of a weir. 

[Morien]

I believe Stones = Staines-upon-Thames in Surrey. A bit downriver from Windsor and south-southwest from Heathrow Airport.

As for the size of the river at that point, that totally sounds like a GM's call. You choose. Is it upriver or downriver from Stains itself?

 

 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Morien said:

I believe Stones = Staines-upon-Thames in Surrey. A bit downriver from Windsor and south-southwest from Heathrow Airport.

Thanks. that was what I thought, but wasn't sure.

2 hours ago, Morien said:

As for the size of the river at that point, that totally sounds like a GM's call. You choose. Is it upriver or downriver from Stains itself?

 Looks like the PK is going to be set up well. The character is actually a Berroc Saxon shieldmaiden who was in exile at Budec court and served as one of Uther's guards, and supported Aurelius campaign, and was gifted with a manor after the march. So going with the typical £10 manor and eliminating the need to maintain a wife, maid, children and squire (but adding in for a steward and chamberlain) she should have around 2.5-3 in discretionary funds and could easily build 6-8 weirs, 2-3 fisheries , a riding and route, and make a tidy sum. Thats without using "Space".

[Morien]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

So going with the typical £10 manor and eliminating the need to maintain a wife, maid, children and squire (but adding in for a steward and chamberlain) she should have around 2.5-3 in discretionary funds and could easily build 6-8 weirs, 2-3 fisheries , a riding and route, and make a tidy sum. Thats without using "Space".

Surely she would have a valet of some sort, at least, to look after her horse(s)? Even if she is a shieldmaiden and not a knight, surely she would prefer to ride rather than walk?

As for the weirs and fisheries, one big thing to note for riverside manors/estates... Some of these weirs may have already been built and are part of the assized rent (see example estates). Also, does her manor straddle the river, or does she only own land on one bank? This limits the number of weirs, too. In the end, though, it is not a huge issue. If she builds, say, 3 weirs and a fishery, that is about £25 spent over 4 years for an income of £3 per year. So, she has about recovered her money in 8 years after finishing to build, which means in about 12 years. Sure, she gets nice little income after that if she survives that long, but after she croaks, the estate will be reassessed at the new value. No biggie. If she builds 8 weirs and 3 fisheries and a riding and route, that is £110 investment (good luck affording it), and at least 12 years of building. Sure, the income is nice, £8 per year, but it will be about over another 12 years before she sees a profit. This is already a generation, so it is debatable if she actually realizes a profit before dying and the manor going to her heirs.

So it is more of a self-correcting 'problem'. As far as I am concerned, it is much less unbalancing when PKs spend their money on investments, than if they are suddenly raising a huge mercenary army.  

[Atgxtg]

52 minutes ago, Morien said:

Surely she would have a valet of some sort, at least, to look after her horse(s)? Even if she is a shieldmaiden and not a knight, surely she would prefer to ride rather than walk?

Yes we are going over what sort of staff she wants/needs. Remember that Stabler, grooms, and a "Lacky" is included in the basic manor. She just got the manor this year. At the least she will need a Steward to run the lands, and probably a Chamberlain to run the household, and is considering training another shieldmaiden which would be similar to maitaining a squire. 

52 minutes ago, Morien said:

As for the weirs and fisheries, one big thing to note for riverside manors/estates... Some of these weirs may have already been built and are part of the assized rent (see example estates).

Yes, but I think BoE is a bit too harsh with that. It seems that historically it took quite a while for manors to be revalues properly (that's exactly what Doomsday was supposed to be doing). So I plan on only re-evaluating manors when the King changes or so. Otherwise many investments don't make a lot of sense, considering how long they take to become profitable. 

52 minutes ago, Morien said:

Also, does her manor straddle the river, or does she only own land on one bank? This limits the number of weirs, too. In the end, though, it is not a huge issue. If she builds, say, 3 weirs and a fishery, that is about £25 spent over 4 years for an income of £3 per year. So, she has about recovered her money in 8 years after finishing to build, which means in about 12 years. Sure, she gets nice little income after that if she survives that long, but after she croaks, the estate will be reassessed at the new value. No biggie. If she builds 8 weirs and 3 fisheries and a riding and route, that is £110 investment (good luck affording it), and at least 12 years of building. Sure, the income is nice, £8 per year, but it will be about over another 12 years before she sees a profit.

Yup, and since the manor was a gift and not a grant, and the character is in her 50s, it's debatable if she will live long enough to make a profit before she dies and looses it. 

52 minutes ago, Morien said:

This is already a generation, so it is debatable if she actually realizes a profit before dying and the manor going to her heirs.

Which at present it can't. Now, if she does more stuff for Aurelius and/or Uther before she dies, there is a chance that it might become sort sort of grant or that the King could do some sort of end run around primogeniture to see that the land ends up with someone she chooses as a heir. Kings can do that, especially with newly won land. 

Frankly with her Nordic Charm of 26 and Uther's weakness for the fair sex, it doesn't seem all that difficult for the land to become more permanent.

52 minutes ago, Morien said:

So it is more of a self-correcting 'problem'. As far as I am concerned, it is much less unbalancing when PKs spend their money on investments, than if they are suddenly raising a huge mercenary army.  

Yup. Plus investments can be damaged or destroyed, manors lost and so forth. In fact, as most of the PKs have returned from exile, they have had to spend a good amount of their accumulated treasure (all those successful battles under Aurelius) to repair their manors to the states the were left in. Nothing eats up PKs money like land. One of the PKs had a villa on his holding get raided and torched, and lost a tower, stable, and a small fortune in furniture, but was just happy that the Saxons didn't find the hidden vault full of coin.