The Grey Knight

[zzMannyzz]

So I've read through the module a couple of times in preparation to run it for my players soon(tm), and there's an entirely optional bit right at the end that really has me scratching my head. Just for clarity, I'm a new Pendragon GM so a lot of this terminology is new to me therefore apologies in advance if my question here seems ridiculous (I shall fall on my sword!). Right, on to extremely rambling question:

In The Grey Knight 6e, p76, part of "Ariette's Final Bid", there's a chance that one of the Player Knights can end up marrying The Lady of Stonewall, Ariette de la Belle Sourire. This is fine by me, and several of my Player Knights have been making no secret of being on the lookout for someone to marry already. To that end, I noted the advice to GMs which appears to be, in a nutshell, that if a Player Knight marries Lady Ariette they get her land holdings and this may completely break the game due to their newfound wealth and influence. Quoting from the module:

  "So great is this success, in fact, that the Player-knight could justifiably retire. Discuss this possibility with the Player and how marriage into the upper echelons of nobility with one degree of removal from the king’s court and the attendant increase in responsibilities could change the course of the campaign, before letting them decide whether they wish to move forward with the wedding. More guidelines on running campaigns at this level may be found in the Pendragon Noble’s Handbook."

 

So I looked at the holding (Stonewall Estate, listed on p82) and note it says:

  "Value: £50 (£5 discretionary income; 50 Passive Glory)
Army: 5 knights, 10 spearmen, 10 archers, and 10 garrison troops (personal household)
Special Holdings: Streamside Quarry (held in trust for the Crown)."

 

Curious about this newfound wealth, and how unbalancing it may prove to be, I looked in the Core Rulebook (p228) to get an idea of what knights earn and found as follows:

"Income
Vassal knights typically gain £10 from their lands, spending £6 in maintenance for themselves, their squire, and their family, £3 to paying soldiers and servants, leaving £1 discretionary funds."

 

So, my question is: does £4 per year "break" the game in some way, or are we more focused on the fact there's a non-garrison at the holding of 5 knights, 10 spearmen, 10 archers?

If, as I suspect, it's the later, is there no control / restraint around how often, and for what purposes, those forces can be used? Presumably a vassal knight would not trapse off to the local woods with his forces in tow, just on the off-chance he might encounter a wild boar etc.

I suppose I'm asking this question as I like the idea of letting players start to setup shop in the game world like this, want to understand what the drawbacks might be and how they can be handled in a game of Pendragon. 

Another question is: what is the purpose / effect of Streamside Quarry? It mentions it is held in trust for the Crown, but there are no further details. Presumably it's just flavour text and can effectively be ignored in terms of any impact it might have on the game?

If you made it this far, thank you 🙂

 

Edited August 13 by zzMannyzz
typo

[Morien]

7 hours ago, zzMannyzz said:

So, my question is: does £4 per year "break" the game in some way, or are we more focused on the fact there's a non-garrison at the holding of 5 knights, 10 spearmen, 10 archers?

No, it doesn't break the game.

Also, there will be opportunities for the other PKs to gain more lands, too.

7 hours ago, zzMannyzz said:

If, as I suspect, it's the later, is there no control / restraint around how often, and for what purposes, those forces can be used? Presumably a vassal knight would not trapse off to the local woods with his forces in tow, just on the off-chance he might encounter a wild boar etc.

Technically there is nothing stopping the PK from using those household knights as he wishes. That being said, their main utility would be that they will guard the estate while the PK is out adventuring. He might send one of them to look after his ancestral manor as well, assuming he has one. And if he is feeling very generous, he might even send a couple to help with guarding the other PKs' manors (if any). Presuming that the PKs are from Salisbury, raids from Wessex is an ever-present threat. And if summoned to war, then the PK would be bringing (most) of his knights (usually some knights stay behind to guard the homeland even when it is technically a 'full muster').

Generally speaking, in my experience, the Players tend to understand that hauling a bunch of NPCs with you just makes the adventures more of a chore. Also, you may point out to any power player that bringing more knights means sharing Glory and Loot amongst more knights; are they willing to do that? But obviously if the adventure is a battle or something, this estate holder will naturally become the leader of the conroi in battle, leading his own household knights and presumably his friends (other PKs) would be happy to fight under his banner, too. Assuming that their liege lord doesn't object (i.e. depends if you'd prefer running two conrois rather than one).

If there is a family feud or something, leading to a more private warring between the PK's family and another one, then those extra 5 knights might become very useful in bulking up the PK's family & friends.

7 hours ago, zzMannyzz said:

Another question is: what is the purpose / effect of Streamside Quarry? It mentions it is held in trust for the Crown, but there are no further details. Presumably it's just flavour text and can effectively be ignored in terms of any impact it might have on the game?

It is effectively flavor text.

Edited August 13 by Morien

[zzMannyzz]

Thanks Morien, much appreciated. I shall go ahead and leave it in the module as an option, in that case.

[Morien]

1 hour ago, zzMannyzz said:

Thanks Morien, much appreciated. I shall go ahead and leave it in the module as an option, in that case.

There is an argument to be made that it is actually beneficial if the PKs are a step above the norm, as it gives them easier access and parity with the more famous canonical characters. It makes them more important 'pawns' to be cultivated by the various factions, and that becomes even more important towards the end of the campaign.

But there is no requirement either way. The game runs just as happily with a bunch of household knights without any lands of their own, or even mercenary knights without a permanent home.

[Vortimer]

My only concern is players may get the idea that getting an heiress to be there wife is easy and rewards are ample. 5th edition had a problem, imho, with heiresses. It also elevates the Winter Phase just a tad as the player knight has climbed the rung of the ladder and so is expected to partake in that portion of the game. You mentioned you are new to GMing Pendragon. Congrats! and welcome to the club. Do you want to take on the extra work with the player? 

Assuming the PKs started with the Starter Set in 510 and you have run the three years there, and the three years in Grey Knight, that is six years total. The knight is now 27 (assuming start age of 21), so definitely will want to start a family. Have the rest of the PKs also found spouses? When one does, usually others will join that band wagon. Which can open up courtly side of the game.

Agree that the game runs either way, just depends on the detail you want to take it to.

[Tizun Thane]

1 hour ago, Vortimer said:

My only concern is players may get the idea that getting an heiress to be there wife is easy and rewards are ample. 5th edition had a problem, imho, with heiresses. It also elevates the Winter Phase just a tad as the player knight has climbed the rung of the ladder and so is expected to partake in that portion of the game. You mentioned you are new to GMing Pendragon. Congrats! and welcome to the club. Do you want to take on the extra work with the player? 

Indeed. Ariette is quite a catch. Don't give her hand easily. If her suitor was marvelous during the adventure, why not. Otherwise, let the knight court her a few years...

With her estate, the newly wed will become rich. Nothing game breaking, but many petty issues with money (for buying the new armor, the new horse) become non-existent.

[zzMannyzz]

2 hours ago, Vortimer said:

My only concern is players may get the idea that getting an heiress to be there wife is easy and rewards are ample. 5th edition had a problem, imho, with heiresses. It also elevates the Winter Phase just a tad as the player knight has climbed the rung of the ladder and so is expected to partake in that portion of the game. You mentioned you are new to GMing Pendragon. Congrats! and welcome to the club. Do you want to take on the extra work with the player? 

 

Thank you, it's quite enjoyable so far although I appreciate I'm only just scratching the surface of Pendragon right now. I do own most of the older books but only kicked-off a game of Pendragon once 6E landed, so I can refer back to some of those for assistance (hopefully).

I'm certainly happy to expand the Winter Phase, and I think the players are too. I've picked up The Book of Feasts partly for that purpose. Although I certainly wouldn't use it for every feast it seems to add a lot of fun to the game - I've even got my feast deck all ready to go in Roll20! I've also skim-read Book of the Manor to get an idea of what might be involved, assuming it doesn't change too much for 6E. I think I'll need to revisit this several times to really understand the goings-on of running a manor as it mostly went over my head on first glance. Potentially though, we could even just skip that as it does seem to be quite in depth and I genuinely have no idea if that sort of thing will appeal to my players - time will tell.

Are there any specific books or references I can look at to get a feel for anything else that might be involved during the Winter Phase? I assume it would be politics and rubbing shoulders with the more senior nobles of the land etc.

 

Edited August 13 by zzMannyzz
typo

[Morien]

5 hours ago, zzMannyzz said:

I've also skim-read Book of the Manor to get an idea of what might be involved, assuming it doesn't change too much for 6E. I think I'll need to revisit this several times to really understand the goings-on of running a manor as it mostly went over my head on first glance. Potentially though, we could even just skip that as it does seem to be quite in depth and I genuinely have no idea if that sort of thing will appeal to my players - time will tell.

Book of the Manor has been superseded by the Book of the Estate in 5e. BotE is much easier, less random and better balanced than BotM.

5 hours ago, zzMannyzz said:

Are there any specific books or references I can look at to get a feel for anything else that might be involved during the Winter Phase? I assume it would be politics and rubbing shoulders with the more senior nobles of the land etc.

I don't think a "mere" estate holder / banneret would have that many extra duties. Sure, attending the liege's Christmas Court is always a good idea, but other vassal knights ought to get there too. It is once you hit the Baronial level that the admin work really starts to pile up, and even then, the GM can just handwave it and let you pellinore as much as you want.

[zzMannyzz]

21 hours ago, Morien said:

Book of the Manor has been superseded by the Book of the Estate in 5e. BotE is much easier, less random and better balanced than BotM.

Just sitting down to read Book of the Estate now, many thanks.

Edited August 14 by zzMannyzz