Lloyd Dupont Posted September 16 Share Posted September 16 (edited) Hi Yall... Long Introduction: -- Still working on my (yet untested) power system. Friend is gonna GM-ing a bit longer so... polishing it up. For the record, I am porting the old 1989 games "Master of Magic" to Mythras. Mythras - as opposed to BRP - mostly because of combat, XP instead of check mark and Opposed skill instead of resistance table - change my mind 3 time on that last one. Anyway the power system is entirely custom - ditching usual D100 magic. And a port of the 6 realms of magic of MoM (with a tiny bit of D&D and Xianxia fantasy sprinkled in). A big area of current work in progress is Summoning. The costing being an area of contention (I made a new skill, just to pay for permanent spell upkeep, which include unit enchantment and summons), and - but less so - the summon stat / monster stats. -- Anyway I was also thinking what happen when the summoner stops paying the upkeep? Where do the summon comes from? Obviously, the Demon Lord summon come from the magical realm of death through a death portal or something. And just as obviously, but quite differently, skeletons are death magic infused remains from our world. But what about unicorn and dragons though? Are they coming from another world? Are they just called though a magically broadcasted food offering which makes them travel to the summoner? And what happens when the summoner stops paying (in MoM they simply disappear btw)? Also... what about the colossus, feels more like a giant golem than a summon? Now, obviously it's all made up as I want it to be. In MoM it's a simple stop paying => summon disbanded. However, I'd like to add a few lore categories / tags with possibly a few game implications. For example, undead might be Animate and require "good condition" remains, golems might require manufacturing expensive body, summon a dragon or unicorn might require a food budget (I will ignore a lair, since summon are often on the move as army member)... And what about when they are banished? Anyway... if that provoke any reaction, please share :) So far, I am thinking: - Banished: means cast back to other world first, or death otherwise - Animate infuse or corrupt an existing creature or remain bad reputation since we need to kill thing or deform them, 50% to become feral if no upkeep, or stop working - Golem must create expensive artificial body. just stop functioning when stop paying upkeep - Summon (need better word?) Need food for summoning and upkeep. Call a magical creature from our world Becomes feral when stop paying upkeep Most animal and "nature realm" summon - Portal Open portal to other world and bargain. Go back whence it came when stop paying upkeep Also require gifts or the promise of a soul harvest Used for powerful intelligent magical being BTW, bonus fun fact, a normal human can be turned into a Chaos creature (permanently) with "Warp Creature", then Banished to the Chaos Realm with Banish! That could be a "fun adventure" for said person... 🙂 Edited September 16 by Lloyd Dupont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 16 Author Share Posted September 16 (edited) Just for fun, checking the big book of monsters... (a BRP fan made contribution by, ahem... he didnt put his name) Keep in mind the BBoM is designed for BRP that like to be bombastic with creatures status, very much more that Mythras I was looking at Efreet and some demon lord and... questioning my choices. Any reaction? Basically my big supernatural baddy are a little bit over sized human with legendary skill and BRP is very oversize human with good to excellent skills Also.. I gave human size to Angels and Valkyries. So loathe to inflate Efreet and Demon Lords Stats below for comparisons: My Effreet STR 3D6+6 CON 3D6+6 SIZ 2D6+12 DEX 3D6 INT 2D6+8 POW 4D6 CHA 3D6 Combat/Magic 120% (lots of spells) BBoM Efreet STR 6D6 CON 6D6 SIZ 6D6+6 DEX 3D6 INT 4D6+6 POW 4D6+6 CHA 3D6 Combat 70% no particular spells My Demon Lord STR 4D6+6 CON 4D6+6 SIZ 4D6+6 DEX 2D6+6 INT 3D6+6 POW 4D6 CHA 2D6 Edit MoM says they are multiple times the size of a human, so I gave them 8D6 in STR, CON, SIZ Combat/Magic: 150%, lots of spells BBoM random demon lord STR 26 CON 30 SIZ 25 DEX 2D6+6 INT 18 POW 16 CHA - Combat 110%, a small list of at will Edited September 16 by Lloyd Dupont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 16 Share Posted September 16 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Anyway I was also thinking what happen when the summoner stops paying the upkeep? Where do the summon comes from? I think that would depend on why the summons needs a constant upkeep. Keep in mind that in standard BRP games, that isn't the case, although apparently it is for MoM. But assuming it is for your game then what is the upkeep for? Is it: to keep the creature on this plane of existence? If so then it would probably be sent back. to keep the creature under control? If so thenit is now free to do what it pleases, which could mean going home, or going on a rampage, or seeking revenge upon it's former master. to allow the creature to live in this plane of existence? If so it will die, although how fast that takes place would matter. Does it die instantly, "suffocates" in this plane, or slowly starves for lack of magical energy to pay off the creature's boss/master back home. If so then when the payments stop the boss cancels the arrangement. So depending on which one of the upkeep frameworks you pick from from above (or some other power framework) that you use to explain upkeep will probably explain everything else. And you might even use different frameworks for different summoings. Perhaps weak, low level beings are summoned directly, but more powerful beings require paying off a boss, etc. 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Obviously, the Demon Lord summon come from the magical realm of death through a death portal or something. And just as obviously, but quite differently, skeletons are death magic infused remains from our world. But what about unicorn and dragons though? Are they coming from another world? Are they just called though a magically broadcasted food offering which makes them travel to the summoner? And what happens when the summoner stops paying (in MoM they simply disappear btw)? Also... what about the colossus, feels more like a giant golem than a summon? Now, obviously it's all made up as I want it to be. In MoM it's a simple stop paying => summon disbanded. However, I'd like to add a few lore categories / tags with possibly a few game implications. For example, undead might be Animate and require "good condition" remains, golems might require manufacturing expensive body, summon a dragon or unicorn might require a food budget (I will ignore a lair, since summon are often on the move as army member)... Yeah is really is all made up as you want it to be. That's a bit of a two edged sword too. There are several ways of looking at things and all are valid. I think you will need to figure hust how things work and use that to figure out what can be dome and how. 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: And what about when they are banished? Anyway... if that provoke any reaction, please share :) My initial reaction is caution and concern. Most of the summoning rules, terminology, internal logic and justifications you imported from MoM are very different from how BRP games have traditionally done things. Not that's not a bad thing, but since it is differernt it's harder to comment on since we aren't quite on the same page. But tap dancing into where angels fear to tread, here are some observations and questions about it. They are not criticisms, just stuff I think you need to clarify or work out to avoid potential confusion and problems. ANd, not having MoM I probably don't correctly understand half of what you've posted so far. But maybe an outside viewpoint might help so... 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: So far, I am thinking: - Banished: means cast back to other world first, or death otherwise Since you wrote "cast back" then banishing is summoning the creature from the current plane of existence back to it's point of origin? Okay, but that is how it works then can a summoner banish another character to a different plane of existence? If not, why not? For instance, if a caster can send a demon to hell then they might find it useful to send some belligerent muscle bound barbarian to hell as well. Or maybe there is some sort of feture that "tags" the creture that the spell uses in someway to send it back. Sort of like a mystical email address. An alternate take on this would be that the banishing spell disrupts the original summoning or blocks the magical upkeep and that and shuts down the original summoning spell. But that's just one possible interpretation. You will need to work out how it does work for your game, whatever way that might be so you can figure out how all this stuff will interact with other magic. 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: - Animate infuse or corrupt an existing creature or remain bad reputation since we need to kill thing or deform them, 50% to become feral if no upkeep, or stop working Infuse or Corrupt? With what? If it's just magical energy then why doesn't magical energy corrupt when used on other magic, such as a Golem? If it is infused with some sort of summoned entity that controls and animates the body, then what sort of entity? As far as killing things or deforming theM/ Why? I mean if you want to animate a dead body, you don't have to kill something, unless you want to animate a particular body. Otherwise you could just be a little patient, wait for something to die from other causes and animate it then? Why do some go feral? Are they imbued with some sort of animal spirit? Oh,m and in RQ there tended to be a difference between animated dead (which are dead bodies animated and controlled by the summoner) and undead (dead bodies or spririts that inhabit a deceased body. Do you want such a distinction in your game? Again, just a possible explanation: What if the animated bodies were possessed by spirits, possibly from another plane or reality, or maybe spirits from the local reality, say nature sprints or those from recently deceased animals or sentient being, with the intellect and instinct to match. So when they are not keep up they revert to their natural state/behavior. Those possessed by animal spirits go feral (at least the wild ones do, domesticated ones might act differently, perhaps going home to their former master. Undead "Mittens" shows up at the doorstep with a (un)dead mouse?) Those possessed by nature spirits return to nature (and "Stop working"). Those possessed by sentient beings, can do various things depending upon the mind of the sentient and how well it can adapt to it current state of existence. Say some go mad and turn into the living dead of legend, others shuffer off this mortal coil, and maybe other still learn to adapt to their new conditions. Again, just one possible way of stapling it all together. But my point is why are animated dead different from other animated creatures. BTW, it's also possible that some of the upkeep for animated beings would be to keep them from decaying, or allowing them to continue to function despite the decay. In fact you might give them a slowly increasing upkeep cost to reflect the increasingly damaged state of their body. Maybe stopping the upkeep results in the animated creature rotting away. Just ow fast would depend on how high the upkeep has gotten to. So zombies slowly rot away while centuries old vampires crumbled instantly to dust. This could also explain unread feeding on the living- they are getting POW to pay for upkeep. Agiian, just one possible explanation. (I'm starting to feel like Leonard Nimoy on In Search Of) 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: - Golem must create expensive artificial body. just stop functioning when stop paying upkeep Again it depends on what the magical upkeep is for. If it is the energy that animates then golemn that stopping it pulls the plug. If the upkeep is keeping something inside the Golem happy, then when the upkeep goes so does whatever is inside. Oh, and if the Golem is religious in nature then the upkeep probably is the link to some higher power that is actually doing all the work. 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: - Summon (need better word?) Need food for summoning and upkeep. Call a magical creature from our world Becomes feral when stop paying upkeep Most animal and "nature realm" summon Do magical creatures need food, or are they "fed" by the upkeep? Do they become feral or just revert to their natural state? For instance, say someone summons a unicorn and then stops paying the upkeep. Instead of "going feral" it just acts like a normal unicorn, gravitate towards forests and fields, and shy away from most people. 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: - Portal Open portal to other world and bargain. Go back whence it came when stop paying upkeep Also require gifts or the promise of a soul harvest Used for powerful intelligent magical being Does this actually open a portal and allow two way comminication like Skype? Could the portal work both ways? That is could a summoner open a portal and use it to go visits some other plane of reality? Or maybe send so minions through to collect something? And does the caster have any control over where the portal opens up, or is it pot luck? If they do have some control do they get to target a location or an entity, or both? What sort of gifts would the powerful being want? Is there some logic to it, or can it vary be creature? Elric! and Stormbringer game demons needs, basically things they wanted or were compelled to do tat could range from the mundane, to the odd, to the horrific. THay could really add soemthing to the exhange and all the GM to turn the obtain of the requirements into tasks of various complexity, and confortability, possibly even becoming something of a quest. For instance, imagine if a caster is bargaining with a powerful demon lord for something and the Demon Lord is holding out for a mint copy of Amazing Fantasy #15 to complete his Spider-Man collection? Oh, and why do the beings want souls? I know why they do is Earth legends, and it is mostly for relgious reasons with demons wanting to prevent people from going to Heaven. But is that the case here? Or can the summoned beings make some use of the souls harvested? Either as food, a power sorce, or a servants/slaves. 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: BTW, bonus fun fact, a normal human can be turned into a Chaos creature (permanently) with "Warp Creature", then Banished to the Chaos Realm with Banish! Okay....so that means "Warp Creature" must tag the human as Chaotic and Banished to the Chaos Realm detects than and sends them "back to where they (supposedly) belong". If you can Warp a human into a chaos creature, do you have to play upkeep? If not, then some unethical casters could make their own domestic demonic minions through warp rather than pay the upkeep for a import model. And that could get out of hand. BTW, Can Warp Creature turn a human into something non-Chaotic so you could Banish them to someplace else? Could it make someone Lawful, or some sort of elemental, or Canadian? Assuming appropriate banish spells existed? Or is is only Chaos? And can something be warped into one of the other states listed above? For instace could a normal human be warped into a Golem or a Unicorn? And if they can, is there an upkeep? Can the spell be undone or reversed? 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: That could be a "fun adventure" for said person... 🙂 Much like how said player hitting the GM with their rulebook could be "fun" for said GM. Anyway have fun working this stuff out. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 17 Author Share Posted September 17 (edited) Ok I think I work it out for that kind of question, this is a lot of thinking for little or not much game mechanic effect... anyway it does add little bit of cinematic effect, so there is that. Which bring me to another other silly and similar question. A few other spell have evocative description (not game effect, but description of effect), for example "Stream of Life" states "creates a fountain inside the town which pours forth with holy water. The townspeople drinking from this fountain become healthier and more fertile" and I guess... mm... I guess I will have to add that to my terse spell description if I want the flavor to be remembered, hey? No question, just thinking aloud, don't mind me, thanks yall 🙂 Edited September 17 by Lloyd Dupont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 17 Share Posted September 17 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Ok I think I work it out for that kind of question, this is a lot of thinking for little or not much game mechanic effect... anyway it does add little bit of cinematic effect, so there is that. Yes it is, but I think it's somewhat unavoidable if you have PC summoners. A player will try something clever in play and you'll have to figure out if it should work, on the spot. But if you've worked out the hows and whys in advance you won't have a problem, hopefully. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Which bring me to another other silly and similar question. A few other spell have evocative description (not game effect, but description of effect), for example "Stream of Life" states "creates a fountain inside the town which pours forth with holy water. The townspeople drinking from this fountain become healthier and more fertile" and I guess... mm... I guess I will have to add that to my terse spell description if I want the flavor to be remembered, hey? No question, just thinking aloud, don't mind me, thanks yall 🙂 Okay, then I'll toss in a few questions. The spell says... "inside the town". Does the spell only work in a town? Can it work in a village or city? How about on an estate or in a villa? Or on on a farmstead or in the wilderness. "holy water". Is it actually holy or just beneficial to people health? Is the spell somehow divine? If it is can anybody still cast it or do they need some sort of religious status or link? If it is divine in ording does it work for people who follow a different faith? Would the holy water harm vampires? If so then this spell would be a great way for people to defend themselves. 'townspeople drinking". Does it only work for townspeople, or would it work for anyone who drank from the fountain? For instance would it affect a group of travelling adventurers? And does it only effect people or does it effect animals that drink from the well too? And what if the found flows into a small pond with fish, say some Koi? Do they benefit too? BTW, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just figuring out who can use it and anticipating what will come up in play. For instance if the spell can work anywhere for anyone then it's not a bad spell for a PC caster to have for healing up after a battle. If it works against vampires then it great to have on hand for dealing with them (fill up the coffins with holy water).If it only works in a particular local or for those will some sort of religious status or allegiance then it becomes more a spell for the town priest. I think the thing is video games have very limited and controlled effects. Player options are constrained, and you don't have to worry about someone thinking outside of the box, since the game doesn't usually allow it. It like a pick-a-path adventure.But with a full table top RPG players can try things that weren't considered in the video game. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 18 Author Share Posted September 18 (edited) Ha! There are multiple ways to answer that... I don't have a problem here, and the answer is self-evident to me (see later below), but my terse document (that I shared, and has more update in store, with the vain hope of praise and wonder)(it's terse because I am only aiming at covering all the bases, NOT particularly to be published) perhaps might leave a lot to the undecided reader's imagination... also while the answer shall be given soon, there are other spells that are less evocative (and perhaps less important in a table top RPG) such as "Prosperity: double tax revenue" - the mechanic of which is much more.. nebulous shall we say, unfortunately. Anyway, back to "Stream of Life", here is the latest terse description in my word doc: Quote Stream of Life (R 600, U 40%) Town blessing. Cancel unrest, double growth. Additionally, all units are fully healed every night, from damage and mundane sickness, thanks to magical healing water fountains in town. Lore Note: creates a fountain inside the town which pours forth with holy water. The townspeople drinking from this fountain become healthier and more fertile. I dunno if it's clear enough. My personal interpretation (and your questioning gave me a few additional idea), all it really need is a fountain. Yeah "Town" is a bit vague, any settlement will do if you pay the mana cost and upkeep. I am thinking the water lose its property a while after leaving the fountain (duration TDB if needed, it helps the whole settlement, so surely it can be stretched a bit, not just enough to become a tradeable community between cities). I just made a vampire monster, though it is not in MoM and... good reminder, I added some vague effect, although my vampire description is only 5 lines long, mind you. Anyway, I was planning to have pilgrimages to the holy fountain, so the lore question had world building impact! Too bad not all city and world spells lend themselves to the same treatment. Your questioning helped me think that perhaps there is even a tax or coin payment to visit the holy fountain, haha! Edited September 18 by Lloyd Dupont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 Glad it was useful. It's just when I see something new like this my first thoughts tend to be "What could my players do to mess this up?" 15 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Anyway, back to "Stream of Life", here is the latest terse description in my word doc: I dunno if it's clear enough. My personal interpretation (and your questioning gave me a few additional idea), all it really need is a fountain. The description had me thinking that it created a fountain of water. ["Lore Note: creates a fountain"] , not that it needed one. Sorry to be technical about it but when players go to look up what the spell does they will say something like that. 15 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Yeah "Town" is a bit vague, any settlement will do if you pay the mana cost and upkeep. Perhaps the cost could be tied to the size of the settlement? You could probably do up some standard sized settlements (Small Village, Village, Large Village, Small Town, Town, Large Town, Small City, City, Large City, Huge CIty) to work out the mana and upkeep costs. Or you could do it by area covered or population. 15 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: I am thinking the water lose its property a while after leaving the fountain (duration TDB if needed, it helps the whole settlement, so surely it can be stretched a bit, not just enough to become a tradeable community between cities). Two things: First if it is "holy" why would it become less holy? Do the gods stop after "quitting time"? I'm not criticizing it, just wondering why. Is there a in universe reason for the game mechanics? Secondly, how about if you gave it a fixed duration (say one day or so or even 1 day per size category of the settlement) and/or that it only worked for water in the settlement? So if someone filled up some barrels and took them out of town they would be out of the area of effect and the water would just be normal water. This would be a great spell for some sort of local patron deity of the settlement. So if, say, the spell were casts by a priest of Athena in Athens it would only work inside Athens. 15 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: I just made a vampire monster, though it is not in MoM and... good reminder, I added some vague effect, although my vampire description is only 5 lines long, mind you. Well it's just the "holy" aspect of the spell, since that implies the blessing of a higher being, and makes me wonder why that blessing goes away after a few hours or days. If you remove that and it just some sort of magical healing then it's not a big deal. Of course I don't really know how the faiths work in your world either, so I'm just going with generalities. For all I know each religion could function strictly on a "miracles for money" basis. 15 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Anyway, I was planning to have pilgrimages to the holy fountain, so the lore question had world building impact! Too bad not all city and world spells lend themselves to the same treatment. Ah, then maybe certain holy fountains have a game perk or discount associated to them. They might be more powerful or cost less mana or upkeep than the norm. Basically the gods giving a discount to the faithful. 15 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Your questioning helped me think Good, that's the plan To try and help, and maybe think of something that you didn't. In my own experience I find other GMs often point something that I overlooked that my players wouldn't have if it had gotten to the table. 15 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: that perhaps there is even a tax or coin payment to visit the holy fountain, haha! That fits. Heron of Alexandra designed a water vending machine where worshipers would place a coin upon a pan and the weight of the coin would move a lever that opened a value and dispensed water. When the weight of the water matched that of the coin, a counter-weight would turn off the value and stop the water. If you wanted to you could use something like that and link it to your fountain (Heron designed a fountain too). 1 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 18 Author Share Posted September 18 (edited) I am not too shaken by your relentless questions although, I could see them bringing up yet another question: Holy water, is that a thing now? Because there are only 2 mentions I can think of in my booklet so far, for the stream of life spell (in the lore note) and with the vampire monster. And I am not really too keen on the concept. I guess I will have to think about it a little more now that you kick started the process... Meanwhile to answer your immediate "technomagical questions": 1. me think holy water is not just water with some nebulous property. Instead, it is simply water mixed with life mana. But they don't perfectly stick together. Life mana "quickly evaporates", or whatever mana does when the spell say so ^^ 2. It creates the fountain now? Mmm.. Indeed, it's what the text I blindly copy/pasted from MoM fandom said. And in fact... I like it. I was just thinking I needed to add some create water spells. Granted it was going to be an uncommon (i.e. level 2) nature spell. But I guess having a level 3 life spell as well is acceptable! So, ok then, it does create a fountain 🙂 3. Ties the cost of the spell to the size of the settlements? Ouch that will force me to scrutinize and update all city spell cost, and ask annoying question about costing between combat and ritual forms (which I don't think make 100% mathematical sense)... But this is far from an essential question for PC I reckon, so was not planning too. Keeping MoM costs for those. I particularly like that there are no "special NPC spell". I mean perhaps there is, but the overall concept is clearly spelled out for everyone. For example, I hate those floating mountains in Faerun coming from some god forsaken war that no magic in any manual could replicate. But here it's very clear that level 4 spell floating fortress could do that. Anyone could do it. Just need level 4 sorcery and 2,000 mana. For each floating rock. Easy peasy. Edited September 18 by Lloyd Dupont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: I am not too shaken by your relentless questions Sorry, I thought that was what you wanted when you posted this. Plus some things from MoM are a bit vague, since a computer game just works, and players can figure out the details by playing, while an tabletop game requires rules interpretation. 7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: although, I could see them bringing up yet another question: Holy water, is that a thing now? Hey, that's one of mine! Or what exactly does "holy" mean. 7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Because there are only 2 mentions I can think of in my booklet so far, for the stream of life spell (in the lore note) and with the vampire monster. And I am not really too keen on the concept. I guess I will have to think about it a little more now that you kick started the process... Yeah. Plus how would removing "holy" affect other things? For instance does it make the vampire monster more of a problem? 7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Meanwhile to answer your immediate "technomagical questions": 1. me think holy water is not just water with some nebulous property. Instead, it is simply water mixed with life mana. But they don't perfectly stick together. Life mana "quickly evaporates", or whatever mana does when the spell say so ^^ Well sticking with the technomagical approach it's like a phone battery. I'd assume that the life mana probably flows into living things it comes into contact with. That could include microbes and other small life forms it comes into contact with, including airborne stuff. Probably great if you got a tank of sea monkeys. Now if holy = life mana, does unholy mean death mana? Or maybe undeath mana? 7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: 2. It creates the fountain now? Mmm.. Indeed, it's what the text I blindly copy/pasted from MoM fandom said. And in fact... I like it. I was just thinking I needed to add some create water spells. Granted it was going to be an uncommon (i.e. level 2) nature spell. But I guess having a level 3 life spell as well is acceptable! So, ok then, it does create a fountain 🙂 Yeah that is what the text says. Now I assume it means fountain as in some sort of spring of water, and not that it produces a nice structure with a statue in the middle. I don't know why it's called Stream of Life and not Fountain of Life either. 7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: 3. Ties the cost of the spell to the size of the settlements? Ouch that will force me to scrutinize and update all city spell cost, and ask annoying question about costing between combat and ritual forms (which I don't think make 100% mathematical sense)... Maybe. What are the ramifications if the costs remains the same? For instance if a protective spell protects an entire city for the same cost as a small village there is a greater likelihood of the city having multiple casters who are being able to keep the spell up on a regular basis. For instance Stream of Life would be amazing useful to a fortification during a siege. Not only would it heal the defenders, present disease from breaking out, and keep everyone refreshed, but it would also provide drinking water. It would probably make sieges unsustainable, since disease and illness would affect the attackers but not the defenders. It all comes down to how the spells will be used in play compared to how they were used in MoM. 7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: But this is far from an essential question for PC I reckon, so was not planning too. Keeping MoM costs for those. Yeah. But you might want to give them another look with the idea of how players could use them as opposed to how they are used in MoM. Otherwise you might get blindsided with a player uses a spell in a unforeseen way. For instance, imagine if PCs dug a shallow pit around a Stream of Life fountain and then fought while standing in the water filled pit. 7 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: I particularly like that there are no "special NPC spell". I mean perhaps there is, but the overall concept is clearly spelled out for everyone. For example, I hate those floating mountains in Faerun coming from some god forsaken war that no magic in any manual could replicate. But here it's very clear that level 4 spell floating fortress could do that. Anyone could do it. Just need level 4 sorcery and 2,000 mana. For each floating rock. Easy peasy. That's fine, as long as you are happy with the consequences of that. Namely lots more floating rocks, and magic being less mysterious and more like a toll or technology. MAgicans will end up being more like engineers and doctors, which is fine, if that is the direction you want to go in. Oh, another way to do the Faerun thing without the "no magic in any manual could replicate" aspect of it is to make the requirements very high and copies of the spell very rare. I don't know how hard it is to get 4 sorcery or even if that is a high or low value; same with 2,000 mana. But even if they are max values that only delays PCs it doesn't stop them. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 18 Author Share Posted September 18 (edited) 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Now if holy = life mana, does unholy mean death mana? Or maybe undeath mana? Exactly! The name is Death mana btw. It does a bit more than just undeady stuff. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Yeah that is what the text says. Now I assume it means fountain as in some sort of spring of water, and not that it produces a nice structure with a statue in the middle. I don't know why it's called Stream of Life and not Fountain of Life either. Well maybe it's more like a spring of life, the fountain is additional and made by mundane means 😛 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Yeah. But you might want to give them another look with the idea of how players could use them as opposed to how they are used in MoM. Otherwise you might get blindsided with a player uses a spell in a unforeseen way. For instance, imagine if PCs dug a shallow pit around a Stream of Life fountain and then fought while standing in the water filled pit. You know I didn't think it needed another look. But, errmmm.... this funny example is sure thought provoking. I guess you got maximizer players. Lol. Anyway it's fine, it takes a couple of hours to heal everything. And further though later... Yes, perhaps I didn't, but I need to expect it! And be unfazed, city enchantments boost whole cities, they are meant to be powerful. You better bring big guns (figuratively, there are no guns) when attacking an enchanted city! 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Maybe. What are the ramifications if the costs remains the same? For instance if a protective spell protects an entire city for the same cost as a small village there is a greater likelihood of the city having multiple casters who are being able to keep the spell up on a regular basis. For instance Stream of Life would be amazing useful to a fortification during a siege. Not only would it heal the defenders, present disease from breaking out, and keep everyone refreshed, but it would also provide drinking water. It would probably make sieges unsustainable, since disease and illness would affect the attackers but not the defenders. Yea... sieges aint gonna work in MoM, that's for sure! Not worry about that. You gotta break those walls and rain chaos fire instead. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Oh, another way to do the Faerun thing without the "no magic in any manual could replicate" aspect of it is to make the requirements very high and copies of the spell very rare. I don't know how hard it is to get 4 sorcery or even if that is a high or low value; same with 2,000 mana. But even if they are max values that only delays PCs it doesn't stop them. Well.. level 4 is very rare, in the realm only of named heroes (or perhaps secret heroes), regardless it's top of the top. 2,000, well with 18 POW, that's 18 mana a day, take about 120 days if you succeed all your ritual roll with penalty ^_^ Well there are a few ways to speed that up. Mutiple caster (need to be all level 4 though), mana potion, attuned to mananode is the best one, can bring up equivalent of 100 POW but you need to defend each mananode with armies as well. Unrelated... It's a bit tiresome to make all monster after all... I am making Fire Giant, Stone Giant, Storm Giant at the moment. Was reusing Classic fantasy stats, but then realized their stat didn't follow both the relative power of each giant in MoM, nor the suggested size. With +8 in SIZ roughly being x2 in mass right? and 2 times in height being 8 times the mass, being +24 in SIZ, right?) Pffft.... And between you and me 8D6 demon lord... is a tad big... I am not much into giant creatures.. except for dragon, I imagine... Also made another pass at all the spell's number values. I am not 100% sure it will work out as well as expected in game. For example, a wholly life enchanted army of mere pikemen could easily eat multiple dragons for breakfast everyday in MoM. But not sure it gonna work since I gave almost no damage bonus to life spell (most skill % bonus, and there is 1 level 3 spell that increase strength, ie. damage but that's the one, and it's level 3).. mmm... anyway numbers are getting better 😄 Edited September 18 by Lloyd Dupont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Exactly! The name is Death mana btw. It does a bit more than just undeady stuff. Death Mana it's not just for zombies anymore. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Well maybe it's more like a spring of life, the fountain is additional and made by mundane means 😛 MAybe there is a river of life, lake of life, etc? 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: You know I didn't think it needed another look. But, errmmm.... this funny example is sure thought provoking. I guess you got maximizer players. Lol. Anyway it's fine, it takes a couple of hours to heal everything. Well it good to jive such things a thought just in case. I've had some players turn somethings around at the gaming table by noticing something like that. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: And further though later... Yes, perhaps I didn't, but I need to expect it! And be unfazed, city enchantments boost whole cities, they are meant to be powerful. You better bring big guns (figuratively, there are no guns) when attacking an enchanted city! But are there equivalent spells designed for attacking cities? Otherwise I don't see the point in attacking cities. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Yea... sieges aint gonna work in MoM, that's for sure! Not worry about that. You gotta break those walls and rain chaos fire instead. But how? Historically, the reason why people besieged fortresses rather than attacking them was because it was too hard to break the walls and rain chaos. If they could have just stormed the castle they would have done so rather than camp out around it for weeks or months. So you are probably going to need some sort of magic for the attackers to offset all the city protective magic. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Well.. level 4 is very rare, in the realm only of named heroes (or perhaps secret heroes), regardless it's top of the top. 2,000, well with 18 POW, that's 18 mana a day, take about 120 days if you succeed all your ritual roll with penalty ^_^ Okay, so possibly but only if you're highly skilled and somewhat fanatical about it. Maybe worth it if your are building your own stronghold, but not something you do on a whim. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Well there are a few ways to speed that up. Mutiple caster (need to be all level 4 though), mana potion, attuned to mananode is the best one, can bring up equivalent of 100 POW but you need to defend each mananode with armies as well. So in theory if a colossal rock (say an island) was a mananode, a skill caster (or a group) could use it to enchant it to float. "How do you make a city float?" "Take one city, a mananode, two scoops of vanilla ice cream..." 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Unrelated... It's a bit tiresome to make all monster after all... I am making Fire Giant, Stone Giant, Storm Giant at the moment. Was reusing Classic fantasy stats, but then realized their stat didn't follow both the relative power of each giant in MoM, nor the suggested size. Well, I'd do it the lazy way and just make a standard giant and then do up templates for fire, stone, ietc. and then keep those template for other creatures. So I could have Fire Orcs, Stone Golbins, Storm Elves, etc. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: With +8 in SIZ roughly being x2 in mass right? and 2 times in height being 8 times the mass, being +24 in SIZ, right?) Pffft.... Yeah, that's the cube square law. x2 height and x2 width and x2 depth = x8 mass = +24 SIZ. At least it was in most BRP products since Superworld. realistically STR only increases at mass^(2/3) or in game terms +/-2 STR per +/-3 SIZ which is why we can't have 20 meter tall giants in real life (their legs would snap under their weight at around the 9m mark), or or 2 meter long ants, but fantasy worlds can get around this with magic. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: And between you and me 8D6 demon lord... is a tad big... I am not much into giant creatures.. except for dragon, I imagine... 8D^ averages SIZ 28 (about 283 kg) which isn't all that huge. Roughly about 9 feet tall for a human, or about the mass of a large Bengal tiger. 1 hour ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Also made another pass at all the spell's number values. I am not 100% sure it will work out as well as expected in game. For example, a wholly life enchanted army of mere pikemen could easily eat multiple dragons for breakfast everyday in MoM. But not sure it gonna work since I gave almost no damage bonus to life spell (most skill % bonus, and there is 1 level 3 spell that increase strength, ie. damage but that's the one, and it's level 3).. mmm... anyway numbers are getting better 😄 Why could they do it in MoM? Did Life enchantment boost their damage? I'd just assume that it would boost their CON/Hit Points so they could take more damage. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 19 Author Share Posted September 19 (edited) 6 hours ago, Atgxtg said: But are there equivalent spells designed for attacking cities? Otherwise I don't see the point in attacking cities. There are city curses as well, if you must know! ^_^ It's all MoM endgame.... I don't expect PC to sling city spells... even in end games probably, because it does take days (or more) to cast one, in most cases 6 hours ago, Atgxtg said: But how? Historically, the reason why people besieged fortresses rather than attacking them was because it was too hard to break the walls and rain chaos. If they could have just stormed the castle they would have done so rather than camp out around it for weeks or months. Well... you have monsters and spells that have the strength and power to break wall. You have monsters and spells that fly or teleport or simply go through walls. There are spell that rain meteors non-stop on cities, breaking everything, or raising volcano(s). Or turning forest into desert, or vice versa. You have no specific spell that bring unlimited food specifically, but we do have unlimited water. We had city firewall spell, like... real fire. We have antimagic city shell. And so on... All of that together. Sieges ain't gonna be as much of a big thing. Although going to start the campaign like MoM starts, i.e. not many level 3 and 4 casters if at all. So, I guess siege could be a thing, for a while. I was thinking to do quick raids of "unprotected villages" at the start of the campaign, and... I guess if they are blocked by a wall, they will just move up elsewhere... Also, each domain of magic can only do a few things. And each culture will have only a single strong domain of magic. 6 hours ago, Atgxtg said: So in theory if a colossal rock (say an island) was a mananode, a skill caster (or a group) could use it to enchant it to float. "How do you make a city float?" "Take one city, a mananode, two scoops of vanilla ice cream..." Lol.. in the very end game of MoM it happens liberally... ^_^ In the RPG game I am making I am unsure yet... but I think it might happen less... I think up level 3 city enchantment might be common. Level 4 not so.... 6 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Yeah, that's the cube square law. x2 height and x2 width and x2 depth = x8 mass = +24 SIZ. At least it was in most BRP products since Superworld. realistically STR only increases at mass^(2/3) or in game terms +/-2 STR per +/-3 SIZ which is why we can't have 20 meter tall giants in real life (their legs would snap under their weight at around the 9m mark), or or 2 meter long ants, but fantasy worlds can get around this with magic. Oh... so STR is growing up more slowly... checking various monster in CF for Mythras and Mythras I notice there is a mix of STR equals SIZ or STR is less that SIZ (for big critters, that is) and I was somewhat confused. How about CON btw? 6 hours ago, Atgxtg said: 8D^ averages SIZ 28 (about 283 kg) which isn't all that huge. Roughly about 9 feet tall for a human, or about the mass of a large Bengal tiger. You right. In fact, after having updated the giants, I revised the demon lords up to 10D6 SIZ (me think to update again to 4D6+20). And updated the description as "humanoid.....of about 5 meters tall" (and same STR and CON) 6 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Why could they do it in MoM? Did Life enchantment boost their damage? I'd just assume that it would boost their CON/Hit Points so they could take more damage. In MoM there are 2 reasons - a pikemen unit is 8 pikemen, 8 attack. whereas the dragon is a singular unit - in MoM there are no 2 stats attack and damage. It just a single stat. But in my video game to RPG translation, I purposely only did modest bonus to either damage or armor, and there might be some imbalance between the various domain magic. Not really an undesired problem really, just 100% sure how it's going to play, also unused to go full fantastic and monster spamming in a D100 game is all. But AP rarely go above 9 so should be fine. For my dragon, which I just did yesterday-night on 4 lines each, apart from the Powers I wrote "use Mythras stats" which is 8AP. Which I guess 8 pikemen with lots of boost can cheese. Except for the whole flying thing, obviously. Also.. I think there are a few +4AP somewhere... and I am wondering if it's excessive knowing that I don't +4 damage elsewhere. Though I do have way to do more damage, but they are more "unique" as in single use magic paste, or magic weapon. Although I see that low grade magic weapon should be more common in my RPG than in MoM, looking at all the prices... Edited September 19 by Lloyd Dupont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: There are city curses as well, if you must know! ^_^ I'ved live in a city and am familiar with quite a few city curses. 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: It's all MoM endgame.... I don't expect PC to sling city spells... even in end games probably, because it does take days (or more) to cast one, in most cases It all sounds very Glorantha/HeroQuest ish. In Glornatha settlements have have guardian spirirts that protect the settlement. 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Well... you have monsters and spells that have the strength and power to break wall. You have monsters and spells that fly or teleport or simply go through walls. There are spell that rain meteors non-stop on cities, breaking everything, or raising volcano(s). Or turning forest into desert, or vice versa. You have no specific spell that bring unlimited food specifically, but we do have unlimited water. We had city firewall spell, like... real fire. We have antimagic city shell. And so on... All of that together. Sieges ain't gonna be as much of a big thing. That depends on how much magic an army can bring along. One flying monster might not be a problem for the defenders. A hundred... If the wall and such were useless then nobody would waste the time, and resources to build them. 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Although going to start the campaign like MoM starts, i.e. not many level 3 and 4 casters if at all. So, I guess siege could be a thing, for a while. Again, if the walls didn't work, not one would build them. I'm thinking it will be a bit like how siege engines and cannon were historically. That is you can have a pretty good seige as long as the attackers don't have a lot of firepower. If they do then everything accelerates. 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: I was thinking to do quick raids of "unprotected villages" at the start of the campaign, and... I guess if they are blocked by a wall, they will just move up elsewhere... That's pretty much how it worked historically. That and maybe leaving a force at the castle to pin down the defenders, while you go raiding the countryside. 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Also, each domain of magic can only do a few things. And each culture will have only a single strong domain of magic. Lol.. in the very end game of MoM it happens liberally... ^_^ In the RPG game I am making I am unsure yet... but I think it might happen less... I think up level 3 city enchantment might be common. Level 4 not so... Very much reminds me of Glorantha. Especially the old boardgames where armies of casters did powerful stuff. 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Oh... so STR is growing up more slowly... checking various monster in CF for Mythras and Mythras I notice there is a mix of STR equals SIZ or STR is less that SIZ (for big critters, that is) Yes the 2 for 3 thing is for when you scale up an existing creature or type. Nut that real world science, and not necessarily how it would work in a fansty or super hero setting. For instance if you had a growth ray that doubled a man's height then scientifically you'd add 16 to his STR and 24 to his SIZ, but in a superhero game you might want to go with +24 to each. But existing creatures have muscle and bone for their SIZ. Plus there is a tendency for STR and SIZ to be about the same for a given type of creature. Especially magical ones like Giants who have more STR than they probably should for their SIZ. But that's why Giants can exist in game. Also note that recent BRP games don't all use quite te same SIZ scale. 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: and I was somewhat confused. How about CON btw? I've give you two different takes on that. In old RQ CON was health and was about the same for most beings at 3D6 with some unusually healty creatures having 2D6+6. THere was some variance but most creatures were around 3F6. From RQ3 onwards, since CON is poison resistance and affects hit points, CON seems to increase with SIZ at about the same rate STR does (2 for 3) 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: You right. In fact, after having updated the giants, I revised the demon lords up to 10D6 SIZ (me think to update again to 4D6+20). And updated the description as "humanoid.....of about 5 meters tall" (and same STR and CON) I''m partial to 4D6+20 or 3D6+4 or even 2D6+27. Since SIZ is logarithmic, more dice mean a bigger variance in SIZ. For instance at 10D6 SIZ you could end up with a SIZ 10 (59 kg) Demon Lord, which would probably underwhelm, or a SIZ 60 one. And that mean 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: In MoM there are 2 reasons - a pikemen unit is 8 pikemen, 8 attack. whereas the dragon is a singular unit - in MoM there are no 2 stats attack and damage. It just a single stat. So more attacks equal more damage. Yeah that will be hard to port over to BRP. 8 Pikemen might be able to take down a dragon, with a bit of luck (rolling some specials and maybe a crit or two before the dragon kills them all), but smart money is on the dragon. Especially if it is a smart dragon and just fields out of pike range and breath fire on them, overhead. 45 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said: But in my video game to RPG translation, I purposely only did modest bonus to either damage or armor, and there might be some imbalance between the various domain magic. Not really an undesired problem really, just 100% sure how it's going to play, also unused to go full fantastic and monster spamming in a D100 game is all. But AP rarely go above 9 so should be fine. For my dragon, which I just did yesterday-night on 4 lines each, apart from the Powers I wrote "use Mythras stats" which is 8AP. Which I guess 8 pikemen with lots of boost can cheese. Except for the whole flying thing, obviously. Also.. I think there are a few +4AP somewhere... and I am wondering if it's excessive knowing that I don't +4 damage elsewhere. Though I do have way to do more damage, but they are more "unique" as in single use magic paste, or magic weapon. Although I see that low grade magic weapon should be more common in my RPG than in MoM, looking at all the prices... Sounds like you might want to look at old RQ battle magic/sprint magic for ideas. If you don't have RQ, the spirit magic it's similar to BRP sorcery, but there were more spells and not as many limits. In old RQ games pretty much every warrior knew a couple of weapon enchanting spells, such as bladesharp (+5% to hit +1 damage per point of spell). Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 19 Author Share Posted September 19 (edited) 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: I'ved live in a city and am familiar with quite a few city curses. Lol, I bet! 😄 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: It all sounds very Glorantha/HeroQuest ish. In Glornatha settlements have have guardian spirirts that protect the settlement. Yeah! I'll take it as a compliment! 🙂 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: That depends on how much magic an army can bring along. One flying monster might not be a problem for the defenders. A hundred... If the wall and such were useless then nobody would waste the time, and resources to build them. First walls are not useless. It's more of a case it's often either don't bother attacking, or, oh oh, I just have what it takes to not care about your punny wall... You do bring a good point. Summoning 1 dragon is an expensive endeavor. And 100 crossbowmen could probably give a run to the dragon. Most certainly in fact. Which might be a good time to mention a few things.... - yes, I talked raid but... not really used to large scale battle and was not going to focus on it too much. I take it you make a lot of war stories? And, come to think of it, a siege can make a good part of the campaign? Well I was not thinking about them much... - yes, it's obviously going to play different than MoM - the Civ like video game, what matter is the... mmm... feeling? atmosphere? - speaking of which, what prompt me to do that? what are my design goals? --- I was never happy will all D100 elemental magic spells (most of them), so here I tried to fix that --- I was never happy with the D&D dichotomy between "cleric" and "wizard" yet wanted more "school of magic", MoM has 6 domains of magic! Divided in a less absurd fashion for my taste to boot. BTW these are not just the same power with different rule like BRP, each have things they can do but not the other. For example, only nature magic can transmute terrain. --- I love MoM has a lot of practical magic that affect city, terrain, etc.. instead of just 1 creature for 10 minute and 1 spell slot. Most of my city have some "unspecified enchantment" going on, and architecture of most building is magically enhanced. And there are "magic-fridge" aka preserver (those Nature wizards must be filthy rich!). --- while I am at it, I would love to have a cool summoning system I can use without... being annoyed either way (i.e. too weak or too strong). And screw those damn necromancers, they ain't gonna be the best! (Sorry, personal pet peeve, reading lot of those books about a "good necromancer", "totally ethical", "not OP at all", it's just that his 128 summons pack a punch, legit, he only wants to make the world a better place.. grrr... fuck necromancers!) Strictly speaking there are no necromancers here anyway. Though death magic can raise undead, obviously. It's not its only focus. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: n old RQ CON was health and was about the same for most beings at 3D6 with some unusually healty creatures having 2D6+6. THere was some variance but most creatures were around 3F6. From RQ3 onwards, since CON is poison resistance and affects hit points, CON seems to increase with SIZ at about the same rate STR does (2 for 3) 3 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: You right. In fact, after having updated the giants, I revised the demon lords up to 10D6 SIZ (me think to update again to 4D6+20). And updated the description as "humanoid.....of about 5 meters tall" (and same STR and CON) I''m partial to 4D6+20 or 3D6+4 or even 2D6+27. Since SIZ is logarithmic, more dice mean a bigger variance in SIZ. For instance at 10D6 SIZ you could end up with a SIZ 10 (59 kg) Demon Lord, which would probably underwhelm, or a SIZ 60 one. And that mean Thanks for the numerical advice... will have to double check all my monsters, sigh... Anyway, was always gonna double check them when finished... 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: I''m partial to 4D6+20 or 3D6+4 or even 2D6+27. Since SIZ is logarithmic, more dice mean a bigger variance in SIZ. For instance at 10D6 SIZ you could end up with a SIZ 10 (59 kg) Demon Lord, which would probably underwhelm, or a SIZ 60 one Great point! I am sold 🙂 Edited September 19 by Lloyd Dupont Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 19 Author Share Posted September 19 11 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Again, if the walls didn't work, not one would build them. I'm thinking it will be a bit like how siege engines and cannon were historically. That is you can have a pretty good seige as long as the attackers don't have a lot of firepower I thought about it again... a siege could be a good basis for a few game session come to think of it.... However... ahem... their starting raiding party would be like 50 people. Way not enough for any kind of siege... But I guess I should keep that idea in mind for later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 4 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: I thought about it again... a siege could be a good basis for a few game session come to think of it.... However... ahem... their starting raiding party would be like 50 people. Way not enough for any kind of siege... But I guess I should keep that idea in mind for later... 50, might be enough to besiege a place, but probably not enough to assault it. The rough rule of thumb for attacking fortified position is to outnumber the defenders by 3 to 1. So a raiding force of 50 could assault a fort with about 16 defenders. So not much larger than a fortified manor house. But 50 men could pin down a smaller force, since the defenders would have to meet the attackers on the battlefield to drive them off. So if a medieval setting 50 men could raid a few manors (about 5 defenders) without much trouble, for about a week, give or take (basically until a knight reports the matter to his liege lord, who then spends a couple more days gather a force large enough o drive the 50 raiders out). Other setting will be a little different, but not all that much since the weapons, manpower and logistics don't change much for any pre-industrial society. 1 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: First walls are not useless. It's more of a case it's often either don't bother attacking, or, oh oh, I just have what it takes to not care about your punny wall... Go big or go home. Which is what they did historically, only more so. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: You do bring a good point. Summoning 1 dragon is an expensive endeavor. And 100 crossbowmen could probably give a run to the dragon. Most certainly in fact. 100 Longbowben would be better, since they might get two attack per round. What happens is when you get into large groups the number of attacks get high enough that percentage chances of things turn into number of occurrences. Forinstace with 100 men at 50% you get 25 hits, 10 impales, and most significantly, 3 criticals. Three crits doing 18 points through armor will drop most dragons. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Which might be a good time to mention a few things.... - yes, I talked raid but... not really used to large scale battle Raid and large scale battle are two different things. Raid is leading a bunch of guys into someone else's land and grabbing whatever you can and going back home. Hopefully without having to fight much, since the defenders can ususaly muster more men than you can. LArge Scale Battle is leading an army into someone else's land and fighting thier army,and te winner typically end up with control of both sides lands. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: and was not going to focus on it too much. I take it you make a lot of war stories? And, come to think of it, a siege can make a good part of the campaign? Well I was not thinking about them much... No, not a olot. But I have run some Pendragon, where war, battle, and raid are things, both on the small scale (a group of PCs) and the large scale (King Arthur and his armies). 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: - yes, it's obviously going to play different than MoM - the Civ like video game, what matter is the... mmm... feeling? atmosphere? Yes, as long as it works mechanically. You have to keep in mind that you can do things in a RPG that you can't do in a video game. For instance in real life you might be able to get more advanced weapons for your allies, but you normally can do that in Civ. At Least not in most versions. I did play a Civ 2 game where I gave the bronze age Greek some tanks to defend against the Russians, but the game doesn't let you do that anymore. But wiht a tabletop RPG that kinda of stuff could happen. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: - speaking of which, what prompt me to do that? what are my design goals? --- I was never happy will all D100 elemental magic spells (most of them), so here I tried to fix that Okay. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: --- I was never happy with the D&D dichotomy between "cleric" and "wizard" yet wanted more "school of magic", MoM has 6 domains of magic! Divided in a less absurd fashion for my taste to boot. BTW these are not just the same power with different rule like BRP, each have things they can do but not the other. For example, only nature magic can transmute terrain. A bit like Ars MAgica, where spells had a Technique (what you were trying to do) and a Form (what you were doing it to). So if you wanted to trasnmute terrian it would be a Muto (chaange) Terram (Earth/land) spell. Possibly with some other forms as secondary depending on the type of terrain, for instance adding Aquam (Water) if the land being changed had been part of a pond or lake. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: --- I love MoM has a lot of practical magic that affect city, terrain, etc.. instead of just 1 creature for 10 minute and 1 spell slot. Most of my city have some "unspecified enchantment" going on, and architecture of most building is magically enhanced. And there are "magic-fridge" aka preserver (those Nature wizards must be filthy rich!). Yes. It should be intersting to see how that translates on the man-to-man scale. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: --- while I am at it, I would love to have a cool summoning system I can use without... being annoyed either way (i.e. too weak or too strong). Well you could take the existing one and tinker with it to suit your tastes. The trouble is only you know what is too weak or toon strong for you. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: And screw those damn necromancers, they ain't gonna be the best! There are ways to keep then in line. Typically if dead minions have some sort of upkeep or decay, or count as a permanent enchantment, with permanent POW costs then necromancers can be kept in check. They only seem to get out of hand when they can raise bodies permanently with a one time short term cost. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: (Sorry, personal pet peeve, reading lot of those books about a "good necromancer", "totally ethical", "not OP at all", it's just that his 128 summons pack a punch, legit, he only wants to make the world a better place.. grrr... fuck necromancers!) Like I said, the problems in game terms is that many RPGs make it easy to just keep raising more and fore bodies until they can overrun thier foes with sheer numbers, and then get more recruits from the dead. It's like a disease. But if the undead are short term, require upkeep, count towards some sort of limit (Strombringer used a CHA limit for bound demons),or permanent POW, necromancers stay manageable. 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Strictly speaking there are no necromancers here anyway. Though death magic can raise undead, obviously. It's not its only focus. Thanks for the numerical advice... will have to double check all my monsters, sigh... Anyway, was always gonna double check them when finished... Well remember the math is real world data, for real world creatures. It doesn't always hod true in game, especially for fantasy creatures. I will probably hold true if you make a bigger deer, bear or horse, and should probably hold true if you made a bigger unicorn, but whose to say if it would old true for a bigger dragon? 15 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said: Great point! I am sold 🙂 That's good since I forgot to finish that sentence to sell the point. I was supposed to note that a SIZ 60 Demon lord would be over 76 times heavier than a SIZ 10 one. It why when we did the dinosaur stats way back we ended up capping SIZ dice at 3D6 and just increasing the add. That way we didn't have to worry about increasing the spread too much. 3D6+54 (57-72) was better than 18D6+1, since we didn't have to worry about a SIZ 109 T-Rex. that weighed considerably more than a Abrams tank (SIZ 90 ish). 3D6 gives you a spread of about two doubling in mass. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Dupont Posted September 22 Author Share Posted September 22 On 9/20/2024 at 4:17 AM, Atgxtg said: The rough rule of thumb for attacking fortified position is to outnumber the defenders by 3 to 1. So a raiding force of 50 could assault a fort with about 16 defenders. So not much larger than a fortified manor house. This does solve many questions I generally had... (not just think thread), ha! Obviously! On 9/20/2024 at 4:58 AM, Atgxtg said: That's good since I forgot to finish that sentence to sell the point. I was supposed to note that a SIZ 60 Demon lord would be over 76 times heavier than a SIZ 10 one. It why when we did the dinosaur stats way back we ended up capping SIZ dice at 3D6 and just increasing the add. That way we didn't have to worry about increasing the spread too much. 3D6+54 (57-72) was better than 18D6+1, since we didn't have to worry about a SIZ 109 T-Rex. that weighed considerably more than a Abrams tank (SIZ 90 ish). 3D6 gives you a spread of about two doubling in mass. Yes, exactly! 😄 Well, I have been procrastinating, but there is like 5 monsters left to do... and then review all the existing ones! Yeeha!😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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