Gurps magic

[peterb]

Just borrowed a copy of Gurps magic from a friend and it seems incredibly easy to adapt to BRP. They use power points which translates directly to mp. Each spell is a skill, but I guess you could use school skills as well. They use a kind of curriculum approach, the mage have to know the prerequisite spells before being able to learn a spell. For example fireball requires that the mage knows create fire and shape fire.

I know this might not be everyone's cup-of-tea but some people might find it a useful alternative to the existing RQ (III) systems and the "new" BRP systems. An added bonus is that the book is available as a PDF, from which one can copy and paste as much as one pleases... I'm seriously considering adding this to my collection.

There's a fan created list of all spells, with just the basic data at: GURPS Resources

[Tywyll]

Just borrowed a copy of Gurps magic from a friend and it seems incredibly easy to adapt to BRP. They use power points which translates directly to mp. Each spell is a skill, but I guess you could use school skills as well. They use a kind of curriculum approach, the mage have to know the prerequisite spells before being able to learn a spell. For example fireball requires that the mage knows create fire and shape fire.

I know this might not be everyone's cup-of-tea but some people might find it a useful alternative to the existing RQ (III) systems and the "new" BRP systems. An added bonus is that the book is available as a PDF, from which one can copy and paste as much as one pleases... I'm seriously considering adding this to my collection.

There's a fan created list of all spells, with just the basic data at: GURPS Resources

If you end up writing up any specific rules for this, I'd be interested in viewing them.

[peterb]

If you end up writing up any specific rules for this, I'd be interested in viewing them.

Well as far as I can see there are are very few modifications you need to do.

1) Magery. In Gurps magic only those with special talent can deal with complex spells. Magery comes in levels, the recommendation is to have no more than four levels in a standard fantasy setting. I would suggest a rule that states that people with less than POW 15 has no magery. At POW 15 you get Magery 1, at POW 17 you'll have Magery 2 and so on up to POW 23 and Magery 5.

2) Learning Spells. Since the system really only works with skills per spell you'll need to have a fairly high skill base. I would suggest a base of 30 for ordinary spells and a base of 15 for very hard (difficult) spells. Allow the character to add 5 percentiles per point of Magery to the base.

3) Spell requirements. You need to know a required spell. I would rule that once you have skill level 40 in a spell then you understand it good enough so that you could learn spells that depend on it.

4) Measurements. Gurps uses imperial measures. There are not that many of those in the book though. Distances are measured in hexes which is equal to one yard, so it could easily be converted to one hex = one meter. The few other instances of imperial measures are easily dealt with.

5) Modifiers. Modifiers are given as bonuses or penalties of one or more points (Gurps uses skill levels from 1 and up). Multiply by 5 to get the equivalent BRP modifier.

6) Skills. There's really only one skill that needs to be converted: Innate attack. It's the ability to target missile spells and other supernatural powers at targets at a distance.

7) Range. Spells are divided into classes or broad types. Missile spells will need some kind of range rule instead of the Gurps one. I would suggest that a mage could fire a missile up to MP * 5 meters with no penalty. Above that his Innate Attack skill would be halved.

8) Casting Time is given in seconds, use SR instead.

9) Durations are given in minutes etc. and need not be modified.

10) Resistance. Spells are resisted using attributes, as given in the spell descriptions. Just use CON for HT, POW for WILL and so on. You could download GURPS Lite to get the basics of the system to help with this conversion.

11) Damage. I would suggest ruling that spells that deal damage does 1d6 points of damage per power point used.

There's also a chapter on how to build magic items. That seems to be easy to integrate with BRP, or you could use the rules from RQ or MRQ.

That's it really.

[Tywyll]

Well as far as I can see there are are very few modifications you need to do.

1) Magery. In Gurps magic only those with special talent can deal with complex spells. Magery comes in levels, the recommendation is to have no more than four levels in a standard fantasy setting. I would suggest a rule that states that people with less than POW 15 has no magery. At POW 15 you get Magery 1, at POW 17 you'll have Magery 2 and so on up to POW 23 and Magery 5.

2) Learning Spells. Since the system really only works with skills per spell you'll need to have a fairly high skill base. I would suggest a base of 30 for ordinary spells and a base of 15 for very hard (difficult) spells. Allow the character to add 5 percentiles per point of Magery to the base.

3) Spell requirements. You need to know a required spell. I would rule that once you have skill level 40 in a spell then you understand it good enough so that you could learn spells that depend on it.

4) Measurements. Gurps uses imperial measures. There are not that many of those in the book though. Distances are measured in hexes which is equal to one yard, so it could easily be converted to one hex = one meter. The few other instances of imperial measures are easily dealt with.

5) Modifiers. Modifiers are given as bonuses or penalties of one or more points (Gurps uses skill levels from 1 and up). Multiply by 5 to get the equivalent BRP modifier.

6) Skills. There's really only one skill that needs to be converted: Innate attack. It's the ability to target missile spells and other supernatural powers at targets at a distance.

7) Range. Spells are divided into classes or broad types. Missile spells will need some kind of range rule instead of the Gurps one. I would suggest that a mage could fire a missile up to MP * 5 meters with no penalty. Above that his Innate Attack skill would be halved.

8) Casting Time is given in seconds, use SR instead.

9) Durations are given in minutes etc. and need not be modified.

10) Resistance. Spells are resisted using attributes, as given in the spell descriptions. Just use CON for HT, POW for WILL and so on. You could download GURPS Lite to get the basics of the system to help with this conversion.

11) Damage. I would suggest ruling that spells that deal damage does 1d6 points of damage per power point used.

There's also a chapter on how to build magic items. That seems to be easy to integrate with BRP, or you could use the rules from RQ or MRQ.

That's it really.

That's pretty cool. Perhaps starting skill in a spell could be different for hard spells and VHard spells. Though, the next question is: how do you learn them at character creation? Can you just put 1% into them and then get them at 30%+1%+Magic Category+Magery?

How would you handle the spell mastering ability (i.e. the fact that at certain higher skill levels you stop needing to use gestures and such, and the spells cost less)?

Would you leave the duration as they are in Gurps (baring in mind that Fatique recovers faster than MP) or would you upgrade the durations? Or would you simply allow MP of characters using this system to recover more quickly?

Cheers!

[peterb]

That's pretty cool. Perhaps starting skill in a spell could be different for hard spells and VHard spells. Though, the next question is: how do you learn them at character creation? Can you just put 1% into them and then get them at 30%+1%+Magic Category+Magery?

Well, that would seem natural. That's how all other skills work. Perhaps one needs to consider increasing the "known spell" level to 50%. Since you must know all required spells, you would have to spend quite a bit of points just to get for example fireball. You would need a minimum of POW 15 plus 3 other specified spells to be able to learn fireball. The average cost would probably be around 30 points.

How would you handle the spell mastering ability (i.e. the fact that at certain higher skill levels you stop needing to use gestures and such, and the spells cost less)?

I would convert the gestures rules to penalties for not using a lot of gestures and voice:

Omitting the foot movements: -10 percentiles

Gestures with only one hand: -10 percentiles

no hand gestures at all: -20 percentiles

Softly spoken incantations: -10 percentiles

no incantation: -20 percentiles

I would keep the lower casting costs, but I'll use MP not FP.

Would you leave the duration as they are in Gurps (baring in mind that Fatique recovers faster than MP) or would you upgrade the durations? Or would you simply allow MP of characters using this system to recover more quickly?

I would use MP to fuel spells. So I would leave durations as they are, maintaining a spell will eat up a mage's MP really fast...

In Gurps magic it's easier to create MP storage items compared to RQ. It's in fact very much like the Staff rules from Magic World (which I understand are included in the new BRP book).

[Tywyll]

Well, that would seem natural. That's how all other skills work. Perhaps one needs to consider increasing the "known spell" level to 50%. Since you must know all required spells, you would have to spend quite a bit of points just to get for example fireball. You would need a minimum of POW 15 plus 3 other specified spells to be able to learn fireball. The average cost would probably be around 30 points.

Actually, it's a bit wonky since technically skills that are a 0% are just that, and you have to buy them from there. Spells would, assumedly, start at 0 unless you bought them, at which they become 30% or whatever the new base is.

You could perhaps do something like the MRQ version, wherein you spend 10 skill points at which you gain the skill at INT+POW, and VHard Spells at (Int+Pow)/2. Then add Magery perhaps?

I would convert the gestures rules to penalties for not using a lot of gestures and voice:

Omitting the foot movements: -10 percentiles

Gestures with only one hand: -10 percentiles

no hand gestures at all: -20 percentiles

Softly spoken incantations: -10 percentiles

no incantation: -20 percentiles

I would keep the lower casting costs, but I'll use MP not FP.

At what point would you become immune to those penalties though? As I understand it, you simply can't cast those spells without doing those gestures and rituals, until a certain level of skill at which point you lose those requirements, but you aren't able to cast without the rituals. Or would you simply use the limitations instead?

Lower casting cost? The spells cost seems about the same between the two systems. Sometimes mush more (Protection costing 2xpt of protection and only lasting a minute!).

I would use MP to fuel spells. So I would leave durations as they are, maintaining a spell will eat up a mage's MP really fast...

That doesn't seem particularly fair to the casters, unless you are keeping the rules that at a certain level of skill you can reduce the maintenance cost of a spell (15 or higher in gurps reduces the maintenance by 1 per round, allowing many protective spells to be maintained for free, ). When would that kick in? 75% for -1(15)? 100% for -2(20)? 125% for -3(25)?

[peterb]

Actually, it's a bit wonky since technically skills that are a 0% are just that, and you have to buy them from there. Spells would, assumedly, start at 0 unless you bought them, at which they become 30% or whatever the new base is.

You could perhaps do something like the MRQ version, wherein you spend 10 skill points at which you gain the skill at INT+POW, and VHard Spells at (Int+Pow)/2. Then add Magery perhaps?

Well, that would certainly work. The main thing is to not make it too easy nor too difficult to play a inexperienced mage.

At what point would you become immune to those penalties though? As I understand it, you simply can't cast those spells without doing those gestures and rituals, until a certain level of skill at which point you lose those requirements, but you aren't able to cast without the rituals. Or would you simply use the limitations instead?

I'll use the penalties. At high skill levels mages will be able to afford those penalties.

Lower casting cost? The spells cost seems about the same between the two systems. Sometimes mush more (Protection costing 2xpt of protection and only lasting a minute!).

I'm referring to the lower cost to maintain spells that good casters get. See below...

That doesn't seem particularly fair to the casters, unless you are keeping the rules that at a certain level of skill you can reduce the maintenance cost of a spell (15 or higher in gurps reduces the maintenance by 1 per round, allowing many protective spells to be maintained for free, ). When would that kick in? 75% for -1(15)? 100% for -2(20)? 125% for -3(25)?

I would use the reduced maintenance cost rule. Multiplying a Gurps skill level by 5 (as you did seems the right thing), so yes: at 75% the maintenance cost is reduced by 1, at 100% by 2 and at every additional 25 percentiles of skill by an aditional one point. The minimum cost would, still, be 1.

[Tywyll]

Well, that would certainly work. The main thing is to not make it too easy nor too difficult to play a inexperienced mage.

Definitely agree with that.

I'll use the penalties. At high skill levels mages will be able to afford those penalties.

Sounds reasonable.

I'm referring to the lower cost to maintain spells that good casters get. See below...

I would use the reduced maintenance cost rule. Multiplying a Gurps skill level by 5 (as you did seems the right thing), so yes: at 75% the maintenance cost is reduced by 1, at 100% by 2 and at every additional 25 percentiles of skill by an aditional one point. The minimum cost would, still, be 1.

I think that if the duration is staying to a minute (on average) especially if you allow other magic systems in the same game, you'd have to allow high skills to eventually drop the cost to 0, as you can in Gurps. There are still penalties for casting spells while maintaining others (-1 per spell you have active, so I'd guess that would be a -5%), I think there is still a self correcting element to it.

[peterb]

I think that if the duration is staying to a minute (on average) especially if you allow other magic systems in the same game, you'd have to allow high skills to eventually drop the cost to 0, as you can in Gurps. There are still penalties for casting spells while maintaining others (-1 per spell you have active, so I'd guess that would be a -5%), I think there is still a self correcting element to it.

Ah, I didn't think of that aspect (i.e. comparing with other magic systems). Then it makes sense to allow a really skilled mage to maintain spells at no cost. The skill penalty is not that large but a failed concentration roll (for example after an injury) would probably mean that all maintained spells are dropped.

[Tywyll]

Ah, I didn't think of that aspect (i.e. comparing with other magic systems). Then it makes sense to allow a really skilled mage to maintain spells at no cost. The skill penalty is not that large but a failed concentration roll (for example after an injury) would probably mean that all maintained spells are dropped.

Yeah, that's another problem with converting the levels straight to level by 5%, or a -1 being simply a -5%, since those modifiers and skill levels are on a bell curve, and a flat -1 can quite easily equate to a heck of a lot more than 5%! But, from a play perspective, it would probably be the easiest modifier to apply.

[Mugen]

That's pretty cool. Perhaps starting skill in a spell could be different for hard spells and VHard spells. Though, the next question is: how do you learn them at character creation? Can you just put 1% into them and then get them at 30%+1%+Magic Category+Magery?

Isn't it redundant to add Magic category PLUS Magery if Magery and Magic category are functions of POW ?

I also think fatigue costs should be doubled to adequate MP costs.

I mean, casting a firebolt that deals 3d6 damage to a target with a 3 MPs expanse doesn't seem right to me, and most GURPS fatigue costs 1 to 4 fatigue points as far as I remember.

[peterb]

Isn't it redundant to add Magic category PLUS Magery if Magery and Magic category are functions of POW ?

Perhaps, I think a base chance around 35-40% is reasonable. Spells in Gurps are much more like recipes, they are not full-blown widely applicable skills, which IMHO warrants the relatively high base chance.

I also think fatigue costs should be doubled to adequate MP costs.

I mean, casting a firebolt that deals 3d6 damage to a target with a 3 MPs expanse doesn't seem right to me, and most GURPS fatigue costs 1 to 4 fatigue points as far as I remember.

Ah, but a fireball only affects one target in Gurps. So a 3 MP fireball spell is functionally equivalent to the 3 MP Firearrow spirit magic spell. If you want to have an exploding fireball you'll have to spend much more MP. A 3d6 exploading fireball would cost you 3 x 2 = 6 MP and deliver 3d6 dam to everyone within 1 m, 2d6 to all within 3 m and 1d6 to all within 6 m. With either kind of fireball you'll need 17+ POW to do more than 3d6 dam.

[Tywyll]

Isn't it redundant to add Magic category PLUS Magery if Magery and Magic category are functions of POW ?

Yes, I've been struggling with that actually.

I also think fatigue costs should be doubled to adequate MP costs.

I mean, casting a firebolt that deals 3d6 damage to a target with a 3 MPs expanse doesn't seem right to me, and most GURPS fatigue costs 1 to 4 fatigue points as far as I remember.

I disagree. 1 Fat in Gurps = 1d6 damage or 1 pt of armor. This is the same as it is now in BRP, at least in the Wizardry system. They are pretty much dead on equal.

[Tywyll]

Perhaps, I think a base chance around 35-40% is reasonable. Spells in Gurps are much more like recipes, they are not full-blown widely applicable skills, which IMHO warrants the relatively high base chance.

Which still leaves the problems of figuring out how a new character 'buys' spells with his starting points.

[Mugen]

This is the same as it is now in BRP, at least in the Wizardry system. They are pretty much dead on equal.

Really ?

I had the following RuneQuest 3 references in mind :

A 1-point spirit magic spell deals 1d3 damage.

A 3-points divine magic spell (which means 3 POW were sacrified to learn this spell) deals 3d6 damage.

In Sandy Petersen's Sorcery rules, a X intensity spell deals "1dX" damage.

Yes, Firearrow and Fireblade have a higher damage/MP ratio, but they require a weapon to be effective.

Our references are very different

[peterb]

Really ?

I had the following RuneQuest 3 references in mind :

A 1-point spirit magic spell deals 1d3 damage.

A 3-points divine magic spell (which means 3 POW were sacrified to learn this spell) deals 3d6 damage.

In Sandy Petersen's Sorcery rules, a X intensity spell deals "1dX" damage.

Yes, Firearrow and Fireblade have a higher damage/MP ratio, but they require a weapon to be effective.

Our references are very different

But also note that the firearrow and fireblade spells replaces the damage of the weapon and the size of the weapon does not matter, its the fire that does the damage. And they also doesn't ignore armour (as disruption does).

The higher cost of divine magic is partly due to their near automatic chance of success and their long range and duration. I still think Gurps magic fits like a glove with the existing magic systems.

[Tywyll]

Really ?

I had the following RuneQuest 3 references in mind :

A 1-point spirit magic spell deals 1d3 damage.

A 3-points divine magic spell (which means 3 POW were sacrified to learn this spell) deals 3d6 damage.

In Sandy Petersen's Sorcery rules, a X intensity spell deals "1dX" damage.

Yes, Firearrow and Fireblade have a higher damage/MP ratio, but they require a weapon to be effective.

Our references are very different

Yeah, I'm referencing the new BRP Magic system. A character with Blast does 1d6 damage per MP (no hit locations). A character with fire/cold does 1d6 over an area, and each MP either increases that by d6 or increases the area.

I won't be playing with Hit locations, personally, so the BRP method (as well as the possible Gurps conversion) works just fine with the slightly higher damage.

[Tywyll]

Ok, so I've been kicking this idea around for a bit, and at first I was going to discard it, but then I came back to it. I'm thinking I can make it work for my world setting.

First off, I'm using the variant idea of college magic (single skill for all the spells in a group) as that fits the feel of 'Sorcery' in my home brew. Here is what I've come up with so far-

INNATE MAGIC

Innate Magic, otherwise known as Sorcery, is a potent magic that derives from the power of a being’s nature. Otherworldy beings, or those with such beings in their ancestry, can manipulate Mana on a subconscious level, their body acting as a filter, tuning the mana into a specific kind or effect.

New Skill:

Sorcery <type>(0%)-characters choose from a specific kind of Sorcery, based around their mystical ancestry. Typically this would represent their nature, so an Iron Blooded Tryshallan would possess ‘Green Sorcery’, while a Kharic-Dun probably wields ‘Earth Sorcery’ (though don’t call it magic to his face).

Sorcery is an exceptionally difficult skill to learn and master. At character creation it can be no higher than 40/50/75/90 (depending on the power level of the game). Each percentile in Sorcery costs 2 skill points.

A Sorcerer can potentially attempt any spell within their field of magic. Each spell they attempt is rolled against their Sorcery skill, with a -5% penalty for every prerequisite spell that it would normally require (per Gurps list). Spells cost a number of MP equal to the normal fatigue cost . Effects cost an additional 1 MP for every 2 full prerequisite spells they possess that the caster lacks skill in. Each spell the character has currently operating is an additional -5% to their casting skill. For example-Elith the Green Sorcerer wants to cast walk through Plants. He has no spell skills, just Sorcery at 40%. Walk through Plants has 6 Prerequisite spells, meaning it will be cast a -30% and cost an additional 3 MP. Even using Ceremony, he can only raise his chance to double, or 20%. Good luck! If he knew Hide Path and Heal Plant, that would reduce his penalty by 10% to a -20%. Using Ceremony he could then increase his 20% to a 40%. A bit better of a chance.

Sorcery cannot be improved with experience, and it takes twice the normal time of study or training to increase (so a character with a 30% in Sorcery would have to spend 60 hours in training before they would see a potential benefit).

Sorcerers can choose to learn spells. Learning a spell takes 50 hours of research/contemplation x the number of prerequisite spells (so the Walk through Plants spell would require 300 hours of research). If trained by someone or something that knows the spell, this study time can be reduced by ½. Alternatively, a Sorcerer could manifest a spell spontaneously, though this is costly (in Hero Points-it costs one HP per Prerequisite spell). Once a character has learned the spell through whatever means, it begins at a level equal to their chance of casting the spell (i.e. their Sorcery skill -5% per prerequisite spell, Elith could learn Walk through Plants at a base 10% chance, or 20% if he knew the other two prerequisite spells). The advantages of spending the effort to master the effect are that Spells can be improved with experience, training time on spells is normal, and the cost in MP is reduced to whatever it would normally be. If a Sorcerer’s Sorcery skill improves after developing a spell, it has no effect on the spell. Starting Sorcerers can buy spells at a 1 for 1 in skill points, based off their final Sorcery Skill.

Other Casting Modifiers:

Gestures with only one hand: -10 percentiles

no hand gestures at all: -20 percentiles

Softly spoken incantations: -10 percentiles

no incantation: -20 percentiles

When a Sorcerer’s skill reaches 75%, all costs to cast and maintain effects are reduced by 1. At 100%, and every 25% additional skill, they are reduced again. This can reduce the cost of a spell, or its maintenance, to 0. Remember, however, that there is a progressive penalty for every spell you maintain.

Skill Effects-

Fumble: The caster loses their next action and all the MP the effect would have cost.

Failure: The caster loses a single MP.

Success: The spell takes effect as normal, and the caster spends the normal amount of MP.

Special: The spell takes effect. Temporal spells have their base duration changed to multiplied by 5. The spell costs ½ MP.

Critical: The spell takes effect at a cost of 1 MP. Temporal spells have their base duration multiplied by 10.