What skills are needed

[vagabond]

I see your point, vagabond, but don't you think a little 'survival instinct' was involved? Enough to justify a small chance on a character sheet, even if it is just the skill bonus?

In the midst of that mass of text, I posited that same thought. The second

paragraph.

-V

[Nightshade]

There is a difference. You can still throw an object. And, you can learn to

throw better on your own. Swimming is different.

No, really, it isn't. The most basic element in swimming is keeping your head out of the water and making crawling motions at it, ideally with cupped hands. Anyone can do that, too. Is that sufficient to be successful in many cases? No. But hitting a target requires more than just picking up an object and making a throwing motion, too.

Swimming is not, at its basics, a complex skill, any more than throwing is, and its basics are things almost all people do reflexively. In some cases there are specific people who have traits that make those reflexive actions ineffective--just as some people aren't effective climbing or throwing things without further training.

(And yes, I'm aware its a dead horse.)

[vagabond]

No, really, it isn't. The most basic element in swimming is keeping your head out of the water and making crawling motions at it, ideally with cupped hands. Anyone can do that, too. Is that sufficient to be successful in many cases? No. But hitting a target requires more than just picking up an object and making a throwing motion, too.

Swimming is not, at its basics, a complex skill, any more than throwing is, and its basics are things almost all people do reflexively. In some cases there are specific people who have traits that make those reflexive actions ineffective--just as some people aren't effective climbing or throwing things without further training.

(And yes, I'm aware its a dead horse.)

Throwing requires rotating your arm and releasing an object.

Swimming requires keeping your head above water, making crawling motions

with your hands and feet, and not panicking. Also, how one moves their

hands and feet must be rather specific, just splashing and kicking will not

work.

Do you really think they are equally simple?

Yes, throwing with accuracy is not all that easy, but the basics of throwing

is. And, gaining accuracy is something you can do yourself with experience.

Swimming is far and away not so, nor can you necessarily get better at it on

your own over time. Because if you lack the rudimentary skills, you will not live

to learn from your mistakes.

-V

[Nightshade]

Throwing requires rotating your arm and releasing an object.

Swimming requires keeping your head above water, making crawling motions

with your hands and feet, and not panicking. Also, how one moves their

hands and feet must be rather specific, just splashing and kicking will not

work.

Making a crawling motion and kicking will indeed work. Its not efficient, but its enough to keep someone from drowning and move them forward. The only thing in the least complex is doing so while keeping your head above water and in calm water, even that isn't difficult.

As to throwing, if its going to serve a purpose, it requires rotating your arm and releasing the object at the right point in the circle, with the right amount of force. Otherwise you aren't throwing something, you're effectively just dropping it at a random distance, which is not particularly useful.

Do you really think they are equally simple?

I don't think they're materially different in difficulty, no.

Yes, throwing with accuracy is not all that easy, but the basics of throwing

is. And, gaining accuracy is something you can do yourself with experience.

Swimming is far and away not so, nor can you necessarily get better at it on

your own over time. Because if you lack the rudimentary skills, you will not live

to learn from your mistakes.

The dogpaddle is simple, and once you've got that down, you can indeed improve by yourself, as it will suffice in calm water. As I said before, the only issue is the panic issue for the majority of people, and we don't pay attention to that when someone's shooting a gun while under fire, so I don't think it needs to be overemphasized here.

The bottom line is, do I think the vast majority of people who remain calm have a significant chance to stay afloat and not drown for a short period without training under decent conditions? Yes, I do. Past that there's no need to make the skill 0%, because, say, a 15-25% base won't keep most people alive anyway.

[FunGuyFromYuggoth]

[rust]

I definitely created a terrible monster, an infectious toxic meme, with that desert nomad / Swim skill example, and I deeply regret it ... :eek:

[frogspawner]

I definitely created a terrible monster...

Be proud, it's a useful monster. It's helped make the point that Swim can be so contentious that it should always be on the character sheet, to avoid such disputes in play. Right?

[rust]

It's helped make the point that Swim can be so contentious that it should always be on the character sheet, to avoid such disputes in play. Right?

I ... will ... resist ... the ... temptation ... to ... answer ... that ... question.

Hah, no infectious meme will subjugate me ! :cool: