Hillfarm and Earthworks Enclosures/Castles

[Atgxtg]

On several of the Maps in the Book of Uther, the Book of the Warlord, and the Book of  there Estate there is a symbol for an Earthworks Enclosure and/or an Earthworks Castle (same symbol, different terminology). The only example of which I've found (so far) is Duke Eldol's holding of Hillfarm at Downtown. Can I assume that:

1. Hillfarm Castle is Clearbury Ring Hillfort?

2. That the the terms Earthworks Enclosure and Earthworks Castle are interchangeable? 

3. That these Earthworks Enclosures are the old Iron Age Hillforts? 

[fulk]

It is Downton.  Listed in Book of Uther pg 131.  I don't have a record of whether it is Clearbury Ring.  The Wikipedia page does look familiar, however.  So I think it is.  However, I gave it 3 acres while Clearbury Ring Hillfort is 4.9 acres. Greg tortured me with "building" every castle on the maps in every period, and I may have gotten sloppy.

 

 This is what I have for Hillfarm Castle.

I don't remember if there is a difference between an enclosure and castle.  However, an earthwork castle is NOT a motte-and-bailey.

 

[fulk]

Here are updated stats, more or less. The Wikipedia entry says it is on a hill, but I looked on the maps and it doesn't seem steep enough to get a Hill bonus (+5 DV), but you could add that to the outer ring if your really wanted. 

Given that it is Downton, it is surely the Rings.

 

 DV 5/2

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by fulk

[Atgxtg]

Cool, that was more info that I expected. 

I've been putting together a list of Hillforts and Villas in Salisbury, with grid coordinates, and this info helps.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[fulk]

I think Book of Salisbury might have lots of hillfort info, but I'm no sure.  Greg made me 'build' a lot of hillforts too.  I feel like they were for Book of Salisbury but I'm not sure.  I'm not sure what made it in or not.

 

Map sounds cool.

 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, fulk said:

I think Book of Salisbury might have lots of hillfort info, but I'm no sure.  Greg made me 'build' a lot of hillforts too.  I feel like they were for Book of Salisbury but I'm not sure.  I'm not sure what made it in or not.

Sounds about right. There are dozens of Hillforts in what Pendragon refers to as Salisbury. I didn't know about the Book of Salisbury. Maybe what I'm doing is redundant?

[Khanwulf]

I don't think Book of Salisbury is published yet. We had Charlemagne, Map folio and Book of Feasts prior to Book of Sires. 

Very likely that Book of Salisbury is next, or maybe Book of Castles? I don't remember. There's a pipeline.

Anyway, it's not likely that your work is wasted in the short term, Atgxtg.

 

--Khanwulf

[Atgxtg]

2 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

I don't think Book of Salisbury is published yet. We had Charlemagne, Map folio and Book of Feasts prior to Book of Sires. 

Very likely that Book of Salisbury is next, or maybe Book of Castles? I don't remember. There's a pipeline.

I thought it was Castles and then Magician. Those are two I recall, and I can't wait. It will be nice to finally  have KAP5+ cover all the stuff that KAP1 and 3/4 did. 

2 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Anyway, it's not likely that your work is wasted in the short term, Atgxtg.

No, but it does kinda kill off the idea of the Gazeteer I had in mind. I was considering trying to use or make a different map, too. Something that was a big bigger and could be mapped to scale so I could get the distances between locations to be more accurate. The existing maps were more general and artistic in nature-not something worked out with coordinates, and some of the locations are a bit off-not that medieval knights would have GPS to check up on this. Ideally I'd like to plot all the locations and then plug in the terrain to make sure the distances and locations are accurate. 

But for now I think I'll just update the grid, and add a list of additional locations with appropriate gird references. I've gone from a single 5 mile grid overlay to one, five and ten mile overlays, to make it easier to find something on the map.

[Khanwulf]

For maps you may honestly be better off doing a route system with branches and flagging adventure locations nearby. Sure it's fancy to have the detailed and geographically accurate map but the best versions of the day were essentially distance and direction flags--like a glorified subway. That's why the Romans invested so heavily in mile markers and the like: it kept them oriented.

 

--Khanwulf

[Atgxtg]

On 3/9/2019 at 11:13 PM, Khanwulf said:

For maps you may honestly be better off doing a route system with branches and flagging adventure locations nearby. Sure it's fancy to have the detailed and geographically accurate map but the best versions of the day were essentially distance and direction flags--like a glorified subway. That's why the Romans invested so heavily in mile markers and the like: it kept them oriented.

 

--Khanwulf

There used to be a map like that in KAP3 or 4 with shields and lines. That might be nice for players, although I'm not sure how well it would work for for covering an area with open plains and  multiple manors where riding cross country might be preferable to following the roads. 

But I'm thinking of something to be useful more to the GM that to the players. It's nice to look at a map and count squares to see how far away a place is, or how long it will take to get from point A to point B, or how close the neighbors are,or it if makes sense to build another Motte & Bailey at some spot based on the proximity of the next M&B castle, etc.   

[Khanwulf]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:50 AM, Atgxtg said:

There used to be a map like that in KAP3 or 4 with shields and lines. That might be nice for players, although I'm not sure how well it would work for for covering an area with open plains and  multiple manors where riding cross country might be preferable to following the roads. 

But I'm thinking of something to be useful more to the GM that to the players. It's nice to look at a map and count squares to see how far away a place is, or how long it will take to get from point A to point B, or how close the neighbors are,or it if makes sense to build another Motte & Bailey at some spot based on the proximity of the next M&B castle, etc.   

Well there should always be trails at least between settlements/manors. Keep in mind that if you go off-road you're 1) crossing someone's farmland/pastureland/forest reserve and they may have words to say about that and the damage you do, and 2) traveling on soft ground with great risk of burrowing animals taking out your horse's leg, or slipping while navigating a bank, or ditch or tree roots, or whatever. If you're taking the usual oxcart then that will get bogged down in short order.

There's a reason the Romans built roads.

--Khanwulf

[Atgxtg]

30 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Well there should always be trails at least between settlements/manors. Keep in mind that if you go off-road you're 1) crossing someone's farmland/pastureland/forest reserve and they may have words to say about that and the damage you do, and 2) traveling on soft ground with great risk of burrowing animals taking out your horse's leg, or slipping while navigating a bank, or ditch or tree roots, or whatever. If you're taking the usual oxcart then that will get bogged down in short order.

Yeah, but I suspect someone going from say, Broughton to Nether Whallop is going to get there somehow. 

30 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

There's a reason the Romans built roads.

Yup and there were quite a lot more of them that make it on the KAP maps, too.