ORtrail

Are you telling me whats going to happen in Guns of the South? Which I haven't finished reading yet!

No, he must be talking about Deadlands. The war ends early in Guns of the South.

Well, I got the PDF yesterday evening and enjoyed a quick read through it.

Quick impressions:

Skulls and Nuke Bombs could have easily been the title for this BRP monograph.

King John's Treasure and Escape From The Slavelands caught my immediate interest. One for historic reasons, and the other for the cool Gamma World memories invoked.

Much more printer friendly than my PDF of Outpost 19, which is a big plus.

I worry too much about my own maps, as this PDF shows. Being functional is good enough, they don't have to be works of art.

Though some definite themes run through this PDF, there should be something useful for every BRP GM, given the variety of adventures.

Whoops! Wrong thread.

Add me to the list of people waiting on downloads. Hopefully it's all resolved by this afternoon.

Wow, very nice! Congrats to all the contributors!! And who doesn't love a sale price? Unless you just bought something a week or two ago...

:ohwell: No, I can't be bummed.

Haven't read Deadlands. I am reading 'The Guns of the South' by Harry Turtledove at the moment, which is fun but I think the war finishes early in that. What do they do in Deadlands?

I remember reading that back in 1993. Great read that got me interested in alternate history, and actually taught me more about the Civil War than school ever did.

BTW, for anyone with a copy of Aces High, uh.... When was the War of 1812?

Yes. I honestly didn't consider the fact that Red Skins would be offensive, or as offensive as it seems to be. I guess, at least partly, because that was a term that came up very early on in the development of Aces High. I had just gotten used to it and had stopped considering the implications. Familiarity breeds contempt? Maybe.

But in future I will certainly be choosing my expressions with a little more fore thought... The last thing I wanted to do was actually insult a group of people that have already been heavily abused, and a group of people that I actually admire at that.

I know I could have done a better job of communicating my concerns, but thanks for listening.

But screwing up the Civil War? You'll burn for that!! :eek:

Dagnabit, pard. If yuh had to include them thar Red Skins, the least yuh coulda done is include their scores and stats! Hangin' is too good for uh!

Washington Redskins

Various groups have spent decades trying to get the NFL to change the Washington Redskins name. But in the spirit of your post....

....the author didn't stat up the Dallas Cowboys either, right? If he did, then we have blatant racism! :eek:

No, you're quite right. Bullet pointing rascist headers wouldn't make me happy. I refer to Red Skins as a collective term, and a chapter header. But American Indian, Indian, Amerindian even Native are all incorrect terms. Everyone that lives there comes from somewhere else, so they are not natives, they're not Indians because Columbus thought he was in India.

For the time period you're presenting, "American Indian" and "Indian" were commonly used. Still used today too, even though Columbus got it wrong everyone understands who we are talking about in a western setting. Being true to the setting would mean using these terms, along with the more negative "Red Skins", with some "savages" and "heathens" thrown in for good measure.

"Native" in the sense of being the original inhabitants as compared to the Europeans who came later seems to have been seldom used for the time period we are talking about, unlike today.

Let me say again, I've got no doubt you worked hard to create an exciting and interesting book for BRP, lets just call this constructive criticism.

If you do an expansion or revision for Aces High, please at least think this issue over.

Okay, okay, we got it!!!

Just trying to be helpful, when your original post already answered the question.

There's been way too much negativity around these parts... it's nice to see a wave of new content being published and people* getting jazzed about the game again.

Well, reading comprehension = epic failure, huh?

If Aces High is an equal opportunity offender, with no one race being singled out as the "villian" and derogatory terms are freely used for everyone, then how can I complain?

To be true to the setting I understand the need to use them -when necessary. The consistent use of "Red Skins" when the term "American Indian" or even just "Indian" would have sufficed though, I simply can't agree with.

Go to the Chaosium website and read through the Aces High blurb, or even the first post here. Would sustituting either of the above words in place of "Red Skins" have impacted the setting? Destroyed historical accuracy?

Or would it have avoided causing needless offense?

I am in full support of your conviction to keep the setting accurate to the period. When you write a historically based setting you should use the terms and beliefs prevalent to the time, as its part of what makes it interesting to roleplay in.

Political Correctness can often get out of hand. Are players going to slate my forthcoming 'Rome' supplement because I include details about slavery, and the fact that people of the time don't see anything wrong with the institution? Or because I have a section detailing Roman profanity? Or that women are second class non-citizens? All are valid cultural behaviours of that time and shouldn't be sanitised for the sake of modern day beliefs.

Although I myself am disturbed by racism and sexual inequality (and would be the first to jump out in front of a KKK mob armed only with a big stick and my personal honour), I still wholeheartedly love reading the Flashman books!

A good supplement can give you the nasty details of a particular time and place, it is what it was, so to speak. Why call out the PC police for telling it like it was?

I do find it curious though, that even it a mythical western setting, (with giant bat winged heads, etc) the idea of playing as Native Americans simply isn't an option? Unless your are at least half white? I assume playing as a female will be also very limited?

GM: "Sorry Bill, the game isn't set up for you to play as an Apache Indian, it's because historically they'd never be allowed around a group of whites."

Bill: "Oh, bummer. Well, I guess I understand."

GM: "Okay, three giant bat winged heads crash into the tavern where you guys are drinking. What do you do?"

Bill: "HUH????"

No, you're quite right. Bullet pointing rascist headers wouldn't make me happy. I refer to Red Skins as a collective term, and a chapter header. But American Indian, Indian, Amerindian even Native are all incorrect terms. Everyone that lives there comes from somewhere else, so they are not natives, they're not Indians because Columbus thought he was in India.

Ah yes, the "What do we call those people" issue. No one term is agreed upon by everyone, but "American Indian" or "Indian" or "Native American" or "Tribal" is used commonly.

The term "Redskin" is, at best, questionable and more than likely to be offensive to some. I'd have advised you to use "American Indian" on the advertising blurb for Aces High. No one has appointed me moderator of all things native though, so it's only one more opinion.

I'm sorry to be a downer here, as I get the feeling (know in fact) that you've put a lot of time and energy into writing this and any release for BRP should be a happy and exciting occasion.

I think we have to face the fact that it was an incredibly racist period. I have tried to allow for that by saying this is what its like, but I don't force anyone to behave in a racist manner... oh... hang on... actually... Ah, no I don't force anyone to behave that way. But, because of the setting it has to be allowed for.

Yeah, to be close to a realistic depiction (nevermind the mythical elements) you do have to acknowledge and allow for the racism of the day. The thing is, do you need to use those terms upfront?

Negoes? Pretty accepted term, but you'd have to acknowledge that for the time period many whites, especially southerners would think of them as "niggas" or "bucks" or maybe "blacks". Would you really want to use those terms on a bullet point for the back cover of the Aces High book?

The term "American Indian" or "Indians" or "Tribes" could be used instead of "Redskins", though mentioning it inside the book as appropriate for the setting works.

It's exciting to see all these announcements! Congrats, and I love me some post-holocaust!

My impression is that this sounds like a Fallout 3 type setting. Closer to an Aftermath than Gamma World?

BTW, "rouge robots"? Nothing terrifies survivors like robots with blush on their metallic faces. Rogue robots they can deal with.

So, this is the Weird Wild West, huh?

Does it follow historical events, as I noticed you mentioned the list of President and the things they did?

Is the default setting in 1870, to go with the map? Does that mean slavery no longer exists, as the Civil war ended in 1865?

When you wrote, "Trappers slaughter vast herds of buffalo for their valuable pelts, leaving a wake of rotting carcasses" did you mean the buffalo hunters? The trappers were after beaver and otter pelts mostly.

Finally, and this is more for everyone who reads this, what about the use of the term "Red Skins"?

This guy spends way too much time on Xbox Live! If we could get his account banned he'd have things wrapped up by the end of March.

Uh, you know, I'm not sure the "Red Skins" will fly that well in some circles. Can I play as an American Indain? Or are they the enemy in this setting?

That said, any supplements for BRP are a good thing, and controversy often equals free publicity, right?

After edit: Ah, I see I can. Sorry I just did a quick glance through your post.

There's a file in the file section of the Alternate earth Yahoo Group you might find interesting (http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/alternateearthrq/files/), entitled "RuneQuest Bronze Age Rules Source Book"

It's by Eduardo Chamon who was a regular poster on that list but I don't think is a member here as yet.

Cheers,

Nick

Starting to feel like subconscious stalking, right Nick? I checked with the wife and she already had a Yahoo account for her Xena group. I got approved by the AlternateEarth Yahoo guys and my hands on that Bronze Age file. It would still be cool to have a copy in the Downloads section here though.

Most of the Ulfland maps were done in Bentley Microstation, then converted to a more "production friendly" graphic format - the originals are in colour. The floor plans and the map of Tarinport are doctored scans of hand drawn maps. The Outpost 19 maps are also originally colour Microstation diagrams, but I was never happy with them and meant to rework them but we ran out of time. I keep meaning to overhaul them and send Dustin a copy to put up on Chaosium's site.

Nick

I wasn't trying to be unduly critical, believe me. I've been putting off doing maps for a BRP scenario I've been working on since the BRP Monograph contest last year. A good map is a work of art, but a lot of effort goes into getting it there. I'm still not sure what approach to take for the maps right now. Are you happy with Microstation? What does it cost? What about free map making software like (a quick Google search later).... AutoRealm?

Oh, and as for the issue of third-party support? It's a catch-22 right now. The BRP book won't sell better until it has more support, but there won't be a lot of third-party support until BRP is selling well. Maybe having enough monographs out will jumpstart things? I hope.

hehn - I believe Charlie is currently wrestling with converting Outpost 19 to more monograph appropriate / printer friendly b&w graphics. They add to the atmosphere when reading as a PDF, but are definitely a bit of a pain as far as printing is concerned. Mind, IIRC Chaosium also struggled with Ashes to Ashes as IIRC that's a colour interior as well.

Cheers,

Nick

Nick, I should have mentioned before that I enjoyed reading your take on the FutureWorld setting in Outpost 19.

That said, those maps? I find a detailed b&w map, like what you did in Uncounted Worlds for Ulfland to be better than a colored one. What did you use to create that Ulfland map? Or was it done by hand?

Uh, well.... I guess I'd stat him up as a super in BRP. I know in the WoW Superworld he'd have a modest ranged kinetic attack (huffing and puffing) along with some regeneration. A bit of Acting skill would suffice for his disguise (though it never worked well did it?) as grandma.

While I don't really know the legal implications, I have always printed out a hard copy of any PDF that I was planning to give more than just a cursory glance. I hate reading from my computer when working on one all day. I would assume, as long as the printed copy remains in the possession of the original purcheser there would be no problem.

On the subject of "tick-collecting", I really wasn't paying attention to the thread and got caught up in the moment. Sorry guys.

Rod

I just grab a PDF copy of Outpost 19, and fully intended to print out a copy for easier reading, plus I'm probably going to want to change things and add a few notes to the margins.

I do wish Outpost 19 was more "printer friendly" though. I don't need the full color space shots, and in fact expected (my first monograph purchase) to see only black and white art.

BTW, I've decided that threedeesix should be limited to one post/day until he gets Swords & Spells finished. The whole point of this thread is getting more material out for BRP, right?

Uh, how about you get Chamon over here, with his Bronze Age sourcebook, so I don't have to deal with signing up for Yahoo?

Thanks.

Well, I didn't think it would hurt to ask....

I wouldn't be much good for art, other than stick figures, but editing would be something I'm more comfortable with. If you ever get some notes together and need some help, let me know.

BTW, amusing video. Kinda reminds me of a Monty Python skit.