Jeff

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

My sources were: Glorantha.com, AH Gods of Glorantha, Esrolia: The Land of Ten Thousand Goddesses.

You could have added the draft and unpublished Prosopaedia (or the Sourcebook), which says:

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Land Goddesses

Nearly Universal - queens of the land

Each region of the world has its own special grain or land goddess. All are similar and each has given birth to her own special grain.

 They are illustrated as young women clutching bundles of their sacred grasses. Alternatively, they are pictured as just a specimen of the ripe plant.

------------

The truth is the God Learners were right far more often than not, and many of their conclusions have been embraced even by the Old Way Traditionalists.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's the God Learner doctrine.

Esrolia clearly has a different sovereignty goddess (Orendana) than the various grain goddesses (Esra, Pela etc).

I am convinced that there is a Slonta, and I am quite sure she had a "grain" connection up to the God Learner era, though I don't know if that still is the case, or what grain that might have been. Dragon Pass doesn't seem to have a grain goddess, but has Kero Fin as sovereignty goddess, or her lesser avatars (Velhara, Sorana Tor, FHQs).

In Seshnela, we have Seshna as the sovereignty goddess to be married by the king (Froalar) only after Hrestol slew Likita, her daughter, the mother of Pendal.

Don't even try to start in Peloria. Pelora, the goddess of maize. No, wheat. No, rice (three varieties). With Surensliba, Biselenslib, Eses, Naveria as the sovereignty goddesses of the lands.

Find me a cookie cutter example free of God Learner simplification, please. Then I will accept that as a single case for this quoted statement.

Orendana is not the sovereignty goddess of Esrolia (in the sense of being a goddess that represents the country and needs to be wooed or otherwise joined in order to secure peace and prosperity). That would be Esrola.

The term "giant" applies to actually a very wide range of beings with very different genealogies. In truth, it is about as precise a term as "deity" or "demon". Any really big largely-humanoid entity can be (and is) called a "giant". I really would advise against using the term "giant" to try to make careful classifications.

5 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Are Veskarthan's runes the same as Lodril's (Life, Fire and Disorder according to the Guide) or did the God Learners flub this one?:)

The God Learners were quite right about Veskarthan being Lodril. So much so that educated Kethaelans in Esrolia and Heortland are likely to call him Lodril or Lodril of the Vent (just as educated Syrians called the Teshub of Doliche "Jupiter Dolichenus") to show off their erudition.

Veskarthan is the most important cult in Caladraland, but I think more people worship Veskarthan through C&A rather than directly.

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Typical Gloranthan country names end on -ela after the stem of a land goddess (Seshna, Frona, Ketha, Jrusta) or a ruling god (Genert, Pamalt, Vith, Wenel), -ia or -os after the stem of a land goddess (Esrola, Pelora, Manira(?), Ramala, Ralia, Teshna, Slonta, Vrala, Azila?, Sentana?). There are only a few -land countries, Heortland and Caladraland in Kethaela, Corolaland in Ralios, Rindland in Seshnela. Heortland is the land of the Heortlings. I would think that Caladraland would be the land of the Caladrings. There is no indication that Caladra is regarded as a land goddess.

They were called the Caldrians or Caladrings at the Dawn. 

 

Caladra is the orange-skinned Fire goddess, Aurelion is the black-skinned Earth god. She is the fiery lava goddess, he is the god of the rich soil made from ash and cinder. Veskarthan is the great Fire within the earth, the father of them both.

12 minutes ago, Quackatoa said:

DO IT!

Consider this:

In the original write-up, Caladra was a feminine Fire deity from Caladraland and Aurelion was a masculine Earth deity from Jrustela.

In Glorantha: Introduction to the Hero Wars, Peter's manuscript was garbled to read so that Caladra was a masculine Fire deity from Caladraland and Aurelion was a feminine Earth deity from Jrustela.

In Glorantha: The Second Age, this error was 'corrected' so that Aurelion was a masculine Fire deity from Caladraland and Caladra was a feminine Earth deity from Jrustela.

If we have Caladra as a feminine Earth deity from Caladraland and Aurelion as a masculine Fire deity from Jrustela... we complete the set! We get a prize! THE RITUAL BEGINS. ("'scuse me, Egon? You said crossing the runes was BAD...")

If I'm ever somewhat arsey about how Caladraland is presented in published Glorantha, guys, I think the above may illustrate why.

(Not aimed at Martin; I, as noted above, have my suspicions about Caladra not being as uniformly fiery as sometimes supposed. But...)

Although I am inclined to structure the cult that way (CAVEAT: I need to make sure that doesn't cause any other problems with Gloranthan cosmology), I want to emphasize that my reasoning has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with G:ItHW and even less to do with Second Age. I can accept it in the case of Caladra & Aurelion only because it is a uniquely successful God Learner experiment. Basically they combined an Earth and Fertility cult with a Fire and Fertility cult using the Harmony Rune. Or something like that.

A few other notes.

Very approximate cult breakdown (of adult population) [note Porthomeka not included]:

Caladra & Aurelion 30%

Ernalda 20%

Esrola 15%

Lightbringers 10%

Lodril (Veskarthan) 15%

Other 10% 

I got to admit, I am wavering on whether the cult may include the Earth Rune as well. These notes assume that Caladra & Aurelion include the following Runes: Fire (Caladra), Earth (Aurelion), Life (both), Harmony (both).

58 minutes ago, Quackatoa said:

Jeff, the tone of what I'm about to write may not come across well, so please believe me when I say it's in good humour.

Glorantha's changed. I get it. The time from the later '90s to the later 2000s when it was a multi-authored world with all of us sticking our oar in with abandon has gone. That was put paid to. Many voices have disappeared. I don't think anyone wants to be disruptive and kick up a fuss for the sake of it, or make your job as the main writer harder.

But in light of all that's been written on the cult--and its fundamental purpose and nature--this just strikes me as weird. I simply don't understand where this comes from, or why.

OK the main reason is that we agreed that having a small cult like C&A (with maybe 15k initiates top - probably much less) with that broad a range of Runic powers didn't really work with our conception of how these pieces should fit together. And if you look at the old RQ spells for C&A, there's nothing there that can't be done with Fire, Harmony, and Life.

Strange as it may sound - the cult of Caladra & Aurelion have Fire, not Earth. They are the fire within the earth.

Caladra and Aurelion are worshiped as one cult - Fire, Fertility, and Harmony. They acquired Harmony during their reunion.

 

The High Priests of Veskarthan rarely involve themselves in political affairs, but when they do, their involvement is decisive.

I certainly wouldn't trust Lodril! He's violent and destructive, and often pointlessly so. And his temper is literally explosive! He constantly tries to escape from deep within the earth - his fiery power seeps through the earth, angering Maran Gor, inflaming it as with a fever, until he finds at last a place where he can burst through to freedom. When he erupts forth from the earth, he falls upon and slays all that he meets with a cataclysmic fury. But after every eruption, he is rechained by Argan Argan and brought back deep into the earth, unable to aid the world except through his children.

9 minutes ago, Quackatoa said:

So, in short (and put very provocatively): has Glorantha dialled back on the rather early idea that Veskarthan is part-Chaos, or is it happy to reply with a non-committal smile?

That story does not have Lodril becoming "part-Chaos" as a result of fighting Krarsht. Rather, as a result of that desperate struggle Lodril was "tainted ever afterwards with a violence unlike most fire entities." Most stories of Lodril have him being somehow "polluted" or "tainted" - the Dara Happans claim it is because he exists in the Lower World (and are more concerned about his gross appetites than his violence). This is the Theyalan version of the same - the Theyalans don't consider him polluted by his sensual appetites, but by his violence and destructiveness. 

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I still wonder why the Fuel within the Earth is mixed up with cults about the Fire within the Earth. Asrelia's bounty?

Another minor concern is the origin of the Caladralanders. Are they descended from the union between Vestkarthan and Asrelia/Esrola, or the lowfires and the earth handmaidens (as listed with more names that anyone can remember in Thunder Rebels)? I think they are classified under Durevings, along with other Golden Age folk of the lands north of the Spike met in the downland migration.

I think you are focusing too much about the God Time origins of folk. Are the pre-Roman inhabitants of Britain descended from the Lydians, Trojans, the Belgae, or come from the sea? Are the original peoples of Kethaela the descendants of Durev, Darhudan, or did they come out of the earth from the songs and dances of the goddesses?

Caladraland is the rich, volcanic land south of Esrolia. The soil of the volcanic highlands is so rich, the inhabitants have no need of plowing - when they wish to cultivate new land, they cut down a section of the jungle, burn the slash, and then poke holes for the seeds of crops, including beans, chilis, garlic, squash, onions, peppers, and other vegetables. They continue cultivating that section until the soil is exhausted and then cut down a new section of jungle. Grapes are cultivated in the dryer lowlands of Vinavale, and the region is famed for its vast vineyards.

The gods of the Vent are the most socially important cults in Caladraland, although Ernalda, Esrola, Babeester Gor, Asrelia, and Ty Kora Tek all have prominent cults and Esrolia has strongly influenced Caladralander culture and art, and much of the population in Vinavale is Esrolian. A small ruling caste of Caldralanders rule the Esrolian province of Porthomeko. In the Hero Wars, the warlords of Porthomeko are allied with the city of Rhigos, forming what is commonly called the Warm Earth Alliance.

Some notes on some prominent Caladralander cults:

Veskarthan the Deep is the great and lusty volcano god who lives in the Vent in the Holy Country. He called the Great Devourer for his ability to consume great quantities of anything. Deep within him is the Wildfire, an untamable demon of conflagration that once threatened to destroy all of creation until tamed by Veskarthan. Veskarthan has since used that power many times, exploding and destroying his foe both with hot lava and with the fall of ash. He is the father of the Lowfires and of Caladra and Aurelion. Veskarthan is often associated with the Pelorian god Lodril.

Veskarthan fought with Argan Argar in the Darkness and was defeated. The Dark God forced Veskarthan into humiliating chains of shadow and had him build an immense palace of black glass for the Only Old One.

Veskarthan is depicted as a man with flaming hair and beard and wielding a burning spear. His statues are often made out of igneous rock.

Caladra and Aurelion are the twin children of Veskarthan (a local incarnation of Lodril) and Gata. Caladra was tended by the Mostali who depended upon the deep fires for their craft; Aurelion was taught the lore of Asrelia, who whispered the lore of the wealth within the Earth into his dreaming mind. The Twins unsuccessfully tried to free their father from Argan Argan’s obsidian palace; but they succeeded in bringing forth firebone (coal), earthblood (oil), and diamonds so their followers could survive the Darkness.

The cult of Caladra and Aurelion is an ex­ample of a successful God Learner ex­periment. The God Learners took two independent cults with variant views of the universe and interlinked them to create a third, stronger cult. This cult is still important in Caladraland and parts of southeastern Maniria.

Caladra and Aurelion are gods of volcanic fertility and harmony. Twins and diamonds are sacred to this cult, and they burn raw oil in their sacred lamps.

Caladra is always shown as a fiery, orange-skinned woman, and Aurelion as a handsome, black-skinned man. 

Tessele the True is the demigoddess daughter of Aurelion and wielder of the Blazing Axe. When her twin brother Vortem was trapped and sacrificed by the followers of Thed, Tessele set off on an impossible quest for vengeance. She ultimately succeeded in reconstructing and resurrecting her lost soul-sibling. She befriended the Mostali with oaths of diamond and became the ruler of the Caladrians in the Silver Age.

Tessele is depicted as an emaciated ascetic woman carrying either a blazing axe or a Y-shaped staff. She wears a necklace of diamonds.

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9 hours ago, Mankcam said:

The various titles of the Talori hold more baggage I think. Titles such as 'Count' and 'Duke' do bring to mind a medieval feel, and I wish that other titles would have been used in the G2G to further distance the Malkioni away from their preexisting medieval influences. 

 

We considered doing it - but in the end, we concluded that to do that required either creating a whole new system of titles using made-up words or using the titles from another RW culture with just as much baggage. And dukes and counts have been in Greg's earliest tales of the West (unlike churches, liturgy, etc - which was all conspicuously absent.

One thing to keep in mind about the Malkioni in the Third Age - their civilization is both OLD and NEW.

Western culture views itself as ancient, with unbroken lineages going back to the God Time - there are Brithini in Arolanit and Sog City who were born before the Dawn. Malkion's revelations took place in the God Time and even Hrestol had his epiphany in the first years of Time. The title claimed by King Guilmarn is nearly 1500 years old. It is similar to having Frederick of the Staufen's take the title Romanorum Imperator, or Artabanus assuming the titles of the Achaemid Shahs. As a result, the Malkioni tend to look backwards to a distant Golden Age (much like the Dara Happans, but quite unlike the Lunars and Argrath's Sartar).

But, Western civilization is also quite new. The end of the Second Age devastated the West. The heartlands of the civilization - Seshnela and Jrustela - were destroyed. Jrustela sank. Seshnela was shattered. Other important centers like Slontos were submerged. Outside of a few enclaves (like Sog or Arolanit), probably 90+% of knowledge was lost. Much of the West in the late Second and early Third Age probably resembled Mad Max! The rulers of Seshnela are a half-barbarian dynasty from the frontier. Rokarism is a movement to restore the ancient glories of the West, while avoiding the abominations of the God Learners (who are viewed as an inevitable byproduct of Hrestol's teachings).

4 hours ago, Charles said:

Following the tangent, see page 161 of the Guide. I worked with Jeff on the first draft of this picture. It shows a scene of a highly magical area of Glorantha, with views of how different styles of magicians would magically envision the same scene.

I believe that this is the canonical approach to the magical worlds for theists, spiritists and sorcerers, that they are views and interpretations of the magical realms. The separate worlds are The Underworld, the Mundane World and the Gods War / Magical World / Hero Plane (3 of the many different names for the one place, Gods War being the most used in Glorantha during the Hero Wars period). And the borders do blur between the worlds in the Sky, the Outer edges of Glorantha, etc.

Note how you very properly explained it - how different styles of magicians would magically envision the same space. Or perhaps more properly how to understand the same underlying God Time. Sometimes this gets called "different magical realms" because what the sorcerers describe is quite different from what the theists experience which in turn is different from what the shamans talk to. But in the end, it is three different ways of approaching the Mystery.

And I think most Gloranthans view the Underworld, the Sky World, the place of one group of gods, the place of other groups of gods, the place of enemy gods, the place of another groups of enemy gods, the place the shamans go to talk to spirits, our world, etc - all as other "worlds". And maybe they try to keep them separate in their rites, minds, and stories. But the hero knows those boundaries don't really exist....

32 minutes ago, Roko Joko said:

Woah.

 

53 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But note how the Speaking Folk and the Book Folk of Danmalastan disappears from the protection of Zzabur, and how we find a Speaking God and a Knowing God joining forces with a certain Storm God.

I think someone just got a point towards Illumination. 

10 hours ago, Pentallion said:

I remember well the days when playing D&D got people labeled as Satanists.  Nearly two decades later, MtG dropped their iconic card Wrath of God just to not piss off the American Taliban.  Retconning the west to make it not a parallel to Christianity feels a lot like paying tribute to the American Taliban.  It doesn't really matter whether it's like Hindu, Jewish, whatever, so long as it's never, ever like Christianity.

 

Well, F that S, is how I feel about it.  

Wow - well I guarantee you that some "American Taliban" has ABSOLUTELY ZERO to do with this. Instead, it is that the key myths of Christianity simply are completely incompatible with Malkionism and its fundamentally humanist world view. Medieval Europe developed in an environment utterly unlike the Gloranthan West and is simply a terrible model for understanding it.

I hate the idea of plugging some real world model into a fantasy setting without thinking why that real world culture was what it was and how it is even relevant to the fantasy setting. IMO, that results in sterile, derivative, and dull fantasy. There are already fantastic games set in the mythology of medieval Europe (Pendragon and Ars Magica both come to mind) - Glorantha is its own thing. 

A new page of Prince of Sartar is up AND now you can pledge your support to keep the comic going by back our Patreon campaign:
 

13 hours ago, aumshantih said:

And yes, I'm in agreement with you about many peoples throughout Glorantha being originally of Hsunchen stock and being changed by circumstance and loosing their beast spirits.   It seems the people of Fronela are primarily  of few different bloodlines:

• The Brithini of Akem
• The Malkioni settlers who arrived near the Dawn from the destruction of the Lands of Logic
• The Eleven Beast Alliance / The Hsunchen Kingdom of Beasts
• And lastly Orlanthi settlers from the central Genertelan First Council.

I'm ignoring all the folks who arrived in the Imperial Age and the Lunar influx during the Seleran Khanate, for now.

 

This is more or less correct. And all of these people interacted/influenced each other in way or another. So frex, the Malkioni settlements were numerically insignificant, but had a powerful influence on the small bands of mortals that had survived the Great Darkness. And when I say small, I mean SMALL. None of the Malkioni enclaves likely numbered more than 1500 or so people (so imagine, there might be a single Talar and only a handful of zzaburi in a settlement). Some communities may have lost most or all their zzaburi in the Great Darkness and lost their access to higher sorcerous knowledge. Most of the people found it impossible to adhere strictly to the Brithini way and aged (although Akem managed to pull it off - I think they may have survived the Darkness with a dozen or so zzaburi and a enough members of each caste to maintain their ways).

Meanwhile, there were bands of cattle herding pastoralists who built little forts of earth and wood. They worshiped their Bull God (who was a storm god as well) and communicated with local spirits and so on. 

You can see how important Hrestol was to the local Malkioni. He made it possible to generate "new" zzaburi from people who according to the Brithini were impure and not permitted. That was tremendously liberating for the Malkioni, and made it possible for them to grow and expand - particularly settlement like Nenanduft, Isefwal, and Sish. This in turn influenced the Enjoreli, some of whom adopted the trappings of Hrestolism (while still worshiping the Bull God and their traditional spirits, while many others relied on powerful shamans who called upon dangerous (and often foreign) spirits to fight the ever-expanding Malkioni.

After around 300, Theyalan influence grew, as they settled in the upper Janube valley and the foothills of the Nidan mountains; they revealed many additional secrets about the gods (for example, more of the Bull God's Air and Death powers). After 375, the Hykimi were defeated by the wizards of Akem in a thaumaturgical contest and the Sun stopped in the Sky. Faced with defeat and potentially subjugation, the Enjoreli and Hykimi embraced the Nysalorian missionaries who taught shamans how they could draw power from the gods or use Hrestoli magic, while still being able to remain in the Spirit World. And also how to command demons from deeper than the Underworld to defeat the Malkioni.

Terms like "saint" or "medieval" carry baggage that makes it very different to get the Malkioni (the Buddhist term arhat may be better but is far more obscure). And Church is about as appropriate as referring to the "Church of Shaivism" or the "Allawite Church" or the "Pythagorean Church". I use school (Movement or Way would have been equally good) to avoid carrying any of that baggage over.

Revering particularly holy people (those who have experienced Joy) is a sign of proper respect by most Hrestoli (and not as an intercessory between the mortal and the Invisible God - although many barbarians combine worship of the gods with veneration of Ascended Masters, which is just symptomatic of how clueless they are). The Rokari zzaburi consider it to be at best pointless, and at worst tantamount to serving a spirit or petty god.