M Helsdon

14 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

This is just a silly idea I had this morning, as I have been reading a lot of things gloranthan, mainy the Prince of Sartar comick and some lore about the lands west of dragon pass, but, is it possible that Belintar was a Brythini/malkioni?

It's possible, given that New Malkonwal may not have been very far away before it vanished.

Latest. I may work on the shading of the horse tonight.

Am using the cataphract sketches in two places - smaller to illustrate the chapter on cataphracti, and in the regional chapter.

Reworked version below.

As I add more sketches to 'Men of the West' the page count increases; if I want roughly one illustration per three pages, ignoring the appendices, I need about eight more.

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

So Arkat's Wars are going to be viewed in 1625 something like how Alexander's Greeks viewed the time of Heracles. It will be filled with contradictions and inconsistencies. In some stories, Arkat is a mighty hero who defeats Gbaji atop the Tower of Justice or defeats the hated Palangio the Iron Vrok and his army of Dara Happens  In other stories, Arkat is a troll monster who leads an army of man-eating demons and trolls to destroy everyone and everything in his path, and forces men to submit to the trolls. In others, he is a tragic atheist or humanist who refuses the Lightbringers and chooses to embrace hate and darkness. In others, he fights himself - each wound inflicted upon Gbaji causes him to bleed and suffer. These stories are not put into any sort of canonical order or cycle - there's lots of Arkat stories. Many scholars scoff at their diversity.

It's not unlike opinions of Alexander, which vary with time and place.

For some he's a great conqueror who sought revenge for the treatment of the Greeks in Ionia and Aeolia and the burning of Athens, for others he is a ruthless conquer who overthrew the democracies of Greece,  for others he is the ambitious tyrant who destroyed one of the most tolerant empires in the Ancient World, the general who misused his faithful troops and when they thwarted his plan to reach the Ganges punished them by having them march through the deserts of southern Persia where many died, for others he is the great statesman who sought to merge the Greeks and Persians, and for others the failed statesmen whose lack of preparations plunged his empire into centuries of war and ultimately partition between the Romans and Parthians.

Alexander - hero or villain?

Arkat - hero or monster?

Is there also an issue that in some ways the Hill of Gold somehow reflects the Cosmic Mountain, even though it had been destroyed?

Perhaps as the pilgrims (whether of Yelmalio, Kargzant, Manimat or Antirius (or even Elmalus?)) ascend the 'hill' they enter the mythic landscape which is very different to the terrain seen from below, so that the mere hill becomes something closer to a golden mountain. If it doesn't change then the motives of the pilgrims aren't sufficiently pure, or they haven't undergone the necessary purification rituals.

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I have said it before: the opposite of Illumination is also Illumination.

Occlusion?

Latest. May need more work on the face - difference in the definition between the laptop and the desktop.

As this one is a Loskalmi light infantry, decided to go with a quilted corselet instead of lammelar. 

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I would love to see more boats from the neolithicum or the actual Bronze Age in Gloranthan art

Latest.

I hope that this is fairly faithful to Jan's original illustration.

1 hour ago, JanPospisil said:

It was meant to be lamellar vest over padding, but you did a pectoral, which you can see on Meriatan. So that's probably also a viable variation.

The Glorantha wiki says "The guardians are typically armoured with Lacquered Leather or Bronze Plate", so I think either works. 

(it should also be noted this is winter gear, so in warmer weather they might not be wearing trousers, or heavy leg wraps. Or the tunic under the padding might be swapped for a lighter one, or just an invisible undergarment.)

Thank you. I believe a mixture of lamellar vest and a pectoral is usable. To distinguish the Loskalmi from other Westerners I will probably go with winter gear for at least one. 

The Glorantha wiki, whilst useful, is sometimes unreliable, so I tend to use the Guide and its illustrations as primary sources.

May attempt to start inking one this afternoon...

1 hour ago, JanPospisil said:

But yeah, you correctly identified the shields have a central rib with a boss, like Celtic ones.

Well, here's what I was working from....

Looked to be a pectoral over a quilted (leather?) cuirass, over a wool or felt tunic, with small vambraces, and leggings. Couldn't see the shoulders.

Couldn't make out the shoulders, but perhaps there are shoulder protectors?

Perhaps the cuirass is lamellar with a pectoral? Can't resolve it any further by adjusting contrast or brightness.

[Curiously, I was using some Angus McBride illustrations of Tang dynasty soldiers as reference.]

39 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

But we're also told that Kargzant is Lightfore, while Yu-Kargzant is Yelm/The Sun Disk, so I always assume the "Yu" had a slightly more exclusive meaning than just "god." Maybe "Lord" or "Great" or some intensifier.

Or Kargzant means sun, so Kargzant is sun and Yu-Kargzant is Sun God?

Decided that preparing for the next sketches might be more productive than launching directly to inking a 'finished' piece.

The only armored Loskalmi reference I can find are small background figures in one of Jan's paintings.

Hmm, the tower shield needs to be taller and the round shield smaller.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yuthu / Yuthuppa came out well, getting the first part of the name "Y(u)-elm".  Did Plentonius bring "-elm" (Elmal, Ehilm, Elmalus) from the south?  Territory that Khordavu hoped to conquer or absorb?

I may be wrong, but the Yu- prefix means 'god', so Yu-elm means Sun God.

Attempted drawing yesterday with the result below. For about the third time I cheated with the face, lifting it from a photograph as the nose and eyes I drew defied any attempt at correcting them digitally..

Afraid that when the arthritis flares I seem to lose co-ordination and can't control the pens as well as I would like. Have three more roughed out, but in two minds about attempting another.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

That is one way to look at it certainly, but what is causing the effect?  Obviously the Great Compromise is important as a factor, as is Time, but what of the heroes that have no apparent "nemesis" to their destiny?  I have always preferred to view this as Glorantha's immune system reacting to new deities as if they are a fresh disease.  For example, is Ironhoof the nemesis of Delecti, or is it Indrodar Greydog?  Who is Cragspider's nemesis?  I am not saying you are wrong, as clearly many heroes have a clear nemesis, Pavis/Jaldon Toothmaker, and Sir Ethilrist/Keener Than, for example, but is this an inevitable product of becoming a hero that you summon a nemesis/shadow?  Or is it that if as a hero you exert power, you will eventually bump into someone of equivalent power who doesn't like your ambition i.e. happenstance?  Is the enemy that pulls down your city in Glorantha entropy (Time'/Kajabor), or fate (Time/Arachne Solara?), or an equal and opposite force (Arkat/Nysalor), or is it just a product of heroes butting heads (Yanafal Tarnils/Humakt)?  To what degree is this apparent balanced opposition a contrivance too, and how much of it is actually a projection from the reader?

I suspect it depends upon whether the balance of the cosmos is threatened. There are heroes, and for want of a better word, super-heroes, so I suspect it depends on power and the size of the region affected, so both Delecti and Cragspider are fairly local, but Arkat and Nysalor, the Red Emperor and Sheng, Jar-eel and Argrath all have continent wide effects. Pavis was attempting to recreate the Green Age.

All non-canonical supposition, mainly material from the Guide glued together with speculation, two subsections taken from the sequel to The Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass.

It is probably not correct.

Talor the Laughing Warrior

The Hero Talor[1] was born in Akem, and rose to be its greatest military commander, fighting not only the external forces allied to the Bright Empire but also internal enemies seduced and corrupted by the promises of the New God.

Talor[2] is also claimed by some to be a son of Arkat. Defending his native land of Akem in Fronela, Talor suppressed the Hrestoli Telendarian School of Akem as Chaotic, for their magics included the powers of Tarumath, the ‘High Storm’, a god invented by Rasarus’[3] priest Lokamayadon[4].

The Eleven Beasts Alliance had encouraged the Hsunchen clans to worship the Lightbringers, and later many to worship Rasarus. The tendrils of Rasarus’ Bright Empire spread his corruption, reaching even into the heart of Akem, and the barbarian horde led by Varganthar the Unconquerable destroyed most river land settlements and threatened the borders of Akem, until Talor met him in battle.

Even more so than in Ralios, the forces fighting for Rasarus were local; this was a war by proxy for the Bright Empire, its native armies led or advised by his priests and missionaries. The wars in Fronela were far distant from the core territories of the Bright Empire.

Talor slew the wizard Arinsor[5] and the Chaos monsters he had summoned, which included the infamous Tarjinian Bull, and then closed the terrible Gate of Banir which it was said had permitted the Rasarus cult to enter Akem.

In revenge, Talor was slain or was trapped in the Underworld by a curse sent by the Chaos God plunging Akem into utter anarchy.

Seeking aid, after Arkat had become the Dark Destroyer, a troll, abandoning the cult of Humakt for that of Zorak Zoran, Harmast had set off again to find an end to the war and he obtained the Keys of Castle Kartolin. This second quest was not as successful as the first, for he was wounded but returned to Hrelar Amali the City of the Gods with the New Light of Talor the Laughing Warrior who had been trapped beyond the Gate of Banir. Talor's experience of his Lightbringers’ Quest was the ‘Eastfaring’, the journey out of Hell.

The device on Talor’s shield was said to consist of a black dog’s head on a gold background[6], with a thin horizontal red bar behind the dog’s head.

The Armies of Talor

In 448 ST Harmast Barefoot left Dragon Pass on his second Lightbringers’ Quest and in 450 ST, returned from the Underworld bringing Talor with him.

Journeying north, they came to the aid of the temple-city of Ulros, a refuge and center of resistance against the Bright Empire, winning the Battle of Giants against Rasarus’ supporters. Talor defeated and virtually exterminated the supporters of Varganthar the Unconquerable and his Eleven Beasts Alliance who had allied with the Bright Empire.

The two marched to Akem, bringing allies from the south with them. They ended a war between the local Orlanthi and Akem, demonstrating to all the nature of their true enemy, and then led an army of Akemite horali soldiers and Men-of-All and combined southern talari and Men-of-All heavy cavalry, Orlanthi warriors, and Hsunchen scouts and skirmishers[7] unsullied by Rasarus’ gifts, to drive the god’s minions from Fronela.

The army was then forced, lacking allies in the east of the Janube valley, to march south into Ralios to attack Kartolin Pass, and then entered Dorastor for the Final Battle.

Unifying the disparate Fronelans, Akemites, and Ralians into an army was perhaps Talor’s greatest achievement after his ascent from the Underworld.

Aided by a band of heroes from many lands, Talor commanded armies, led secret plots, plundered ancient secrets, and slaughtered all the foes who dared defy him. Some say he used the keys found by Harmast to break through Kartolin and so entered Dorastor to slay Rasarus’ evil priests, even as Arkat the Kingtroll met Nysalor in battle.

Throughout it all Talor maintained a wry (some say insane^[8]) sense of grim humor which failed him only twice, giving him his sobriquet as the Laughing Warrior.

Afterwards, Talor returned to Akem where the rulers of Nenanduft joined with him to form the Kingdom of Loskalm and he was acclaimed as its first king. After many years of reigning as king, he was buried at Parche. He banned the Stygian darkness that overcame Ralios from his land, instead shining for all his people as a beacon of pure Light and hope.

One of his Companions who had fought beside him at Kartolin Pass founded the Kingdom of Dakal, in the hilly lands between the Janube River Valley and the snow-capped Nidan Mountains, known then as Syanor[9].

Later, Talor was venerated by the Hrestoli as an Ascended Master.

Heroes in myth are often agents of change, intentionally or inadvertently ultimately bringing death and destruction to those around them and often to themselves. Hercules, Jason, Beowulf, Arthur... the list goes on.

Very few leave their world more stable. Gilgamesh might be an example.

The same is true in Glorantha, where one person's hero is another's antihero. Even Snodal's heritage of a perfected society is ultimately doomed.

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Just double checking, I had a few questions about the Middle Sea Empire

1. Were they Hrestoli, generally speaking?  If so, they had some understanding of Joy, correct?
    
2. I assume they had castes, correct?  I can't seem to find it now, but I remember reading somewhere they loosened castes to allow for meritocratic rise through the imperial bureaucracy.  I'm assuming that would be (from their POV) an "innovation" on Hrestolism?

The Castle Coast is probably the most useful remnant of the MSE and seems to maintain much of its society and structure, in that it includes a version of Hrestolism (including Joy), and a meritocracy in that able individuals can rise in class/caste, though the old powerful noble houses stay powerful.

One problem is that there are many versions of Hrestolism, and they differ in their interpretation and implementation of social and religious matters. The other complication is that the attitudes of the MSE developed and changed over time.

The MSE version of Hrestolism is distinct from both the earlier versions and very different from the New Hrestolism of Loskalm. The freedoms created by Hrestol were the basis of the freedoms that permitted the God Learners the philosophical insights  to exploit the natural magical world, but it also permitted the MSE to exploit and use gods, so that Tolat was important for their armies and Wachaza for their navies. Even before the formation of the MSE Hrestolism was divided regarding the use of gods.

The MSE also mostly divided its imperial bureaucracy into a civil structure, and a military one, and after its fall, the military rankings became the basis of the surviving aristocracy in many places, much as the Roman office of Dux, War Leader, became the social rank of Duke.

One constant in every Age since Time began is that anything that seriously alters the state of the Gloranthan cosmos ultimately summons its own destruction.

The birth of a new manufactured god, the attempt to create a new manufactured dragon, the exploitation of the cosmos, the creation of a perfect society, the rebirth of a moon, all lead to their equal and opposite and massive destruction.

Nysalor's Bright Empire led to a war across a continent; the EWF tried to utilize draconic powers and the dragons returned to eat it; the Middle Sea Empire rose to great heights until the laws of nature brought it down; the New Hrestolism of Loskalm is mirrored by the Kingdom of War; the rise of the Red Moon will ultimately cause it to fall.

Nysalor summoned Arkat.

The Red Emperor summoned Sheng Seleris.

Jar-eel summoned Argrath.

All these things will bring massive destruction because each distorts Glorantha, and as before Time, each leads to an increase in entropy and the devolving of nature and magic.

Morality in these events is almost impossible to determine, but they all bring a massive increase in mortality.

10 hours ago, Eff said:

Safelstran armies are described in the Guide as being consistently mediocre, so for Pralori versus Galanini, I think it's basically a choice between different flavors of barbarian (at least the elkriders won't want land...) 

Safelstran militia are certainly mediocre; Safelstran mercenary armies are likely to be very diverse, with the best highly professional. (Sir Ethilrist and his White Horse Troop began as Safelstran mercenaries, and went north because of setbacks).

Regarding logistics - the caravan route from Drom to the Manirian Road will require a network of depots to keep the trade caravans fed and watered, mostly probably too small to appear on the larger scale maps, and the network might be used for military campaigns, but probably won't be, as for at least part of the route the Pralori are probably part of the supply chain. Similarly, some of those mercenaries in Safelster are probably from Pralorela...

Whilst it is not RuneQuest based, The Coming Storm may be of interest because internal clan politics and the roles of men and women are important to the plot of some of the scenarios in The Eleven Lights.

I assumed that Greg had the idea from Korean Turtle Galleys, but didn't copy the design.

The oars are a back-up system as it is usually propelled by an Elemental, and if stranded by low tide can extend short stumpy legs and walk... In addition to a ram, it has a fire projector.

A Zistorite invention.

This doodle concludes the ships I have roughed out. 

I have been attempting to draw ships of the Gloranthan West (Page 44):

The merchant ships are in your link are fine for Glorantha.

Latest. As with the other ships this is a little stylised, as perspective would have meant the oars would have terminated at the same level.

Last week as the flareup started I roughed out these ships so that I could continue drawing, and this is almost the last one roughed out. I could do a Safelstran Fortress barge, but it isn't very interesting, visually.

Will have to see if I can rough out some more tonight...

6 minutes ago, metcalph said:

What I do object to is your tedious insinuations that I am making things up as I go along and that there is not one shred of evidence for what I write. 

That's what you are doing to me.

I have been phrasing my speculations as 'suggestive', 'might', and then you jump on my head claiming I have said things I have not.

I appreciate that I am speculating, and not adhering to dogma.

8 minutes ago, metcalph said:

It's all black and white with you, isn't it. 

Please don't project your behavior onto me. Myth and history occupy a grey area, in this world and Glorantha.

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

You are using Safelstrans interchangeably with Enerali.

No I am not. 

Some Safelstrans have Enerali ancestors.

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

And the Greeks called the lands of the people who did not speak Greek barbarians.  Your point?  Simply because the Malkioni called them Hsunchen does not automatically make them so.

I know. I have said as much. But as noted, the Galanini clans of eastern Safelster still believe their chiefs can turn into horses. This suggests to me the survival of a very tiny Hsunchen bloodline, rare, but those bloodlines had to come from somewhere...

12 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 The Grazers and other Pentans make similar claims but nobody classifies them as Hsunchen.  

Do they claim they can turn into horses? It's a significant difference.

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The same revealed mythologies that has Zzabur referring to Ehilm (RM p4-5)?  I find that far stronger evidence thaan a glassry entry which doesn't describe who calls them the Winkoti.  If it was the Brithini, then that leds back to the slur.

So you ignore an entry because it doesn't support you. 

Yes, I know the Brithini refer to Ehilm, but it is impossible to tell when they started using the term. For that matter, the Brithini refer to Worlath, but the Enerali used the form Erulat.

11 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That's talking about the people of Ernaldelans if you actually bothered to look at the source properly rather than clutch at straws.  The people of Ralios are not listed among the tribes of the Vingkotlings so aren't Vingkotlings QED.

I know the people of Ralios aren't Vingkotlings! That was your claim!

As in:

On 6/21/2020 at 5:02 AM, metcalph said:

Try Guide map p688 which has arrows from the Vingkotlings past Top of the World and Nida on both sides...  Also the text:

 

On 6/21/2020 at 12:01 PM, metcalph said:

Excuse me?  I am saying that the Enerali are Kachati who had been enslaved by the Mostali in the Storm Age and then liberated by Vingkotlings.  Their culture would then be Orlanthi with Malkioni roots.  What are you arguing *for* if you think I am so wrong?

So in your book, the enslaved Kachasti were freed by Vingkotlings, became Orlanthi, but not Vingkotlings.

Inconvenient that then some backed the Sun God, not the Storm God, they had Sun Horses as Noble Ancestors, and some gained an apparent ability to turn into horses from somewhere.

 In my book, the enslaved Kachasti were freed by Vingkotlings, some became Vingkotlings, others became the Enerali (merging perhaps with a relict Hsunchen Horse People), others became Enjoreli perhaps, and other groups as well.

There was obviously a division of the Enerali into tribes that favored the Sun God (and had a Solar Horse God), and some that favored the Storm God (and had a Solar Horse God) which continued into the First Age. The term Orlanthi can cover a very wide range of cultures, but the Enerali were fairly distinct.

Glorantha is all the richer for apparent inconsistencies and complexity, but I appreciate that there's often a desire for solid incontrovertible 'facts', but you won't find them in terrestrial or Gloranthan mythology, unless you are a God Learner...