scott-martin

15 hours ago, dumuzid said:

So, this may be a shot in the dark but: does anyone know any sources regarding the sky trolls?  Trolls that invaded the sky dome in the God Time and stayed there, like the Celestial River?  I recall reading oblique references to them, but don't know if there are any actual myths about them.

Much like Joerg I wonder if these are not really trolls in the sky but allied celestial darkness entities. What we have here might be the origin of entities like the Tamali who might have been mostly assimilated into the troll way so early on that we only have fragmentary records. The Tamali are notorious for being a "shadow" people. So, arguably, are the uz-adjacent tribes of Pamaltela. Of course I am no authority in modern troll politics so I would take these notes with even more caution than usual.

However, it strikes me that people who remember the White Elves occasionally hint at a kind of substitution where the sky forest disintegrates and a new wave of Takers emerges in its place. This might be simply the elf memory of the sky changing color but even in that scenario, your "sky trolls" are probably involved. They might be related to the children of Lorion . . . more work is always required.

46 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If you want to assign cults to the castes, I would place Orlanth with the farmer caste (or Barntar), Lhankor Mhy with the wizard caste (those who don't actually become wizards are still likely to become scribes, alchemists or similar knowledge-based trades), and Issaries with the lord caste as the Talar caste has all this organisation and trading and diplomacy in their hands.

IMG this varies across the Aeolian diaspora but generally the "orlanth" or kshatriya principle really does call the shots and the "issaries" is content in a mediating role. Barntar (probably with a lot of folk "flesh man" practice) works the land and a form of Humakt provides the muscle when needed. 

This reveals something of the way the "gunas revolve" dynamic informs Western social history. The "farmer" or shepherd (dronar) rises through upheaval (horal) to become the new aristocracy ("talar") while old aristocrats fall or simply recede (zzabur). Losers are pushed to the bottom and history cycles. Intellectuals and intermediaries are not always content to merely guide the process but in most places efforts to rule in their own name are not sustainable.

I don't think the brahmins lead collateral worship in normal circumstances but probably jealously protect a ritual specialist role. Real talar magic (as opposed to the social status) depends on a sacrificial economy that few bookworms can negotiate . . . MOA experience unlocks it fairly reliably.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

That's about half-way to being IC.  There's a naive enthusiasm that I need to control.

It's how Glorantha happens. At least one of the Princes believes this. Others reject or amplify parts. We find out who is on which side.

Just now, Nevermet said:

Yeah, while the Guide says iron is a major good on the Manirian Road, it would be so much easier to sail to Seshnela, and the Elves are definitely part of why.

I think you two just also solved the Lunar obsession with finding a warm water port and, failing that, keeping the strategic Dorastor route open despite immeasurable losses.

12 hours ago, dumuzid said:

This was written for the 1600s version of the Argan Argar cult though, so presumably Belintar did not suborn all of the Loyal Household, and maybe some have returned since Belintar's dismemberment.  Does anyone know of other entities that might be included in the Loyal Household, or ways Argan Argar worshipers manifest this element of the cult in the world?

What little we know about Belintar's relationship with the Silver Age Founders can charitably be described as "occult" in the wake of the MOLAD disaster but I agree with Jajagappa, the Loyal Household seems to function differently.

If I were gambling (luck and death!) I would chase the theme back to the original institution of Unity . . . this is the related to the ecumenical collective effervescence OOO in his genius was able to bolt together and save the world. It's his thing. We can love him for that if nothing else. 

Within Time, some pieces of that collective fell away and became "disloyal." We don't talk about them now. These are the ones that remain. Here in the 1600s it's probably a shrunken household. Hardcore AAs have spent a few centuries in the literal wilderness out of power. Their "loyalty" preserves the memory of Mastery.

The profound thing is the way this also resembles the Husband Protector court, which sometimes seems curated to achieve elemental universality with a female figure at the hub. Maybe Argan Argar has many wives as a parallel to the Esrolian menu and as a subversion of normative troll family. It's good to be the shadow king. Maybe this points to a primeval interface between an "Ernalda" and one or more Kyger Litor. Now that you mention it, I've heard more than once in the necropolis that "Ernalda is a black goddess" but you hear similar whispers about everyone in the old parts of town. Maybe AA is sometimes a woman like Belintar is sometimes a woman and has husbands or "best friends."

The easy way out is to give him something like Four Weapons Subcults and leave it open whether Orlanth worship adopted the form from the troll overlords back when we all lived nearer the dark. Of course Pavis remembers something like this too.

39 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Scott posted while I was posting... will think while I clean dishes and be bac klater

I should be doing that too! 

My feeling rhymes with yours that the Princes are probably not the best and brightest. They might have had a golden age once but those days are long gone for most. On the other hand, Hero Wars may get a few to rise to the occasion and recollect themselves. I was gonna make a Kojeve joke somewhere to go with the Habermas, maybe it's in here somewhere.

EDIT TO ADD VALUE: What's interesting is that once Belintar gets the boats working again the first voyage goes west to seed ports in that direction. He doesn't send a mission to Kralorela until well after Handra is happy. This tells me that (options)

1. The stuff he wanted most was in Handra's direction . . . maybe he preferred their tea.

2. It was intelligence he really craved and the mercantile applications were a nice side bonus.

3. Circumventing the Princes would destabilize rivals of his court and give his friends (Prax-facing Issaries) time to pivot. 

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1) it was never that significant, even during the heyday and Belintar's early years, so no city grew to any extent.

2) it did grow, but then collapsed possibly within the last two generations

3) while the trade went through, something has kept the cities from growing (elves? trolls? barbarians? disease? some magical aftermath of the God Learners?)

I lean toward all three. Moving backward chronologically, these towns have definitely seen better days. The last half century has been challenging (No. 2) and many of the best, brightest and most mobile have drifted off to Fay Jee, Khorst, Handra and into the trade centers at either end of the route. An increasingly hard core of traditionalists and dead enders remains. 

But there's a secret here: even in the glory days before the Opening, the Road doesn't really seem to have scaled to require or support massive numbers of people (No. 1). Unless there's a robust appetite for mule meat in Safelster, the route is only worth what it can support in the round trip and while the Safelster end will pay for religious artifacts, "philosophical" texts and other luxury cargo, how much can you send back to depressed Nochet? Those mules need to eat both ways or get eaten, much as it grieves me to say.

My suspicion is that they handed extremely high-value cargo (iron for the East) to Desert Trackers at that point and the Trackers threw them a bone to cover costs. While there's a hard constraint on the amount of metal available, limiting the number of hooves on the road luckily also supports artifact prices so win win. Then when Belintar shows up things get a little better but his inner circle probably captures more of the goodies before the stuff even gets on the Road. Suddenly the westward leg has a supply gap. Fewer hooves on the road means you don't need as much support . . . fewer farmers, fewer drivers, leaner service stations. 

Then you've got the forest (No. 3) to deal with. We know Castelain made pacts in order to push the Road through there at all. There are probably hard constraints on land clearing or else a quarter million mreli erase you. Maybe the Switch is also in play so the land is glitchy. If you have to import food via mule train you aren't going to want to feed a lot of people. 

As a No. 4 scenario it would be neat if the Trader Prince population is significantly larger than what's on the maps because so many people are on the Road at any given moment and so don't show up as being "in town." However this is probably no more than 10-20% at the most outrageous.

Side notes, Khorst is really weird. Where did all these people come from? Where do they live? The Marsh is unlikely to support high densities and the town itself looks pretty isolated. 

Before the Trader Princes took over this route Chain Gang probably had a link back to the Shadow Plateau. I don't know when this ended (probably atrophy on the God Learner end and then Belintar does his best to shut it down once and for all) but it's worth teasing out a bit. Trolls were the only people with real access to Dragon Pass ruins after the Kill, so OOO becomes the critical link feeding that stuff into the Esrolian end of the Road. The Safelstrans evidently didn't want to work with the Chain Gang or the Gang didn't want to carry it directly. First thing that comes to my mind is that Arstola would have complained and again you have the quarter million mreli problem, so one way or another Castelain found a way like we always do.

58 minutes ago, Borygon said:

You know, when you put it like that it sounds like some weird Malkioni take on shamanism, with shamans  wizards abusing exchanging favors with spirits runes for their spells.

That's super good. I appreciate sorcery but was never happy with the coercive economy of commanding the runes to obey your will. I like Fair Exchange: each party surrenders something and receives something else in return. Far more sustainable, even "logical" if you start from a non-neurotic entropic model.

Of course to them in Leplain that looks like satanic "pacts" while the heathen to the east are satisfied to hear that it's a form of "spell trading." This is now IMG.

1 hour ago, Borygon said:

So, in western elemental system blue moon and red moon are considered two different elements since they have separate elementals ? Or is Tolat and Annila considered a separate concept from the Moon represented currently by reborn Sedanya due to the first two being a burtea and Sedanya being a full elemental/ Srvuali? Does any western text even mention their world having a moon?

I'd say answering these questions is a big piece of how the Hero Wars play out in the West. Taking them in reverse order indicates that they have a historical awareness of pre-Rufelzan "lunar" phenomena (although probably as a condition rune suggesting relational or process concepts) and that the Twins play a big role in that. A lot of this has since been purged or enticed up to join up with the Empire but vestiges probably remain here and there for MGF. Specialists probably bicker the fine distinctions until they run out of breath and ink but I have no record of an elemental "moon" being important to these cults in the western era . . . while Tolat is the red planet and Annila is occult, I don't think western sorcerers have ever assigned either much of an elemental court to manipulate via the standard techniques.

Further complicating the ultimate answer is the persistence of a white lunar goddess in a few obscure myths in this part of the world, so if we identify two "elements" or elemental phases here then there are probably really three.

2 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

There are so many fragments to consider.

Love it. Development in this part of the world has faced its challenges but humble questers can still make hellacious discoveries here. 

These hexes deserve it.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

Oh, that's tempting.  Where is that from?

Why not, right? You're already in for the project of a lifetime, why not make it more complicated? 

The most accessible version of the western elemental system is HERE but it's backed up in other places. I forgot that they would also break Cold out separately from Darkness but doubt that's going to come up a lot in this part of the world. 

21 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Argh... so many things...

Maybe have some real fun, give them a version of one of the archaic western elemental systems that separate Sky from Fire. ASHARA may do the duties of Man in that world to push against the old totemic tribal world.

11 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I was loosely of the impression that the Trader Princes themselves (and their families) were basically Talars (possibly self-styled, but who is going to dispute that?), and they ruled over Orlanthi commoners in lieu of Horali and Dronari. 

IMG they present somewhere between autonomous Issaries grandees and old-school Talars, which is a Deep Secret of the Hero Wars.

24 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

"virtual"

Now that you mention it the metafictional properties of Impossible Landscapes probably helped drive the materialists mad in a direction often associated with the "mystic."

“What we see or what we seem are but a dream, a dream within a dream" - from Samin's Song (apocryphal)

10 hours ago, Eff said:

And of course, if Dendara is the sovereignty source, then the speculations about Yelm as a title become a lot more interesting...

Great stuff from all throughout this thread. More extensive travel + journey always awaits ("where she is you now must follow") but there's an interesting twist to the craft goddesses where Stone was the fourth corner. Stone's gender presentation is less clear early when he was alive but this is a direction to explore for goddesses who may have once had a family but now drift in the interstices. Mapping the "gor" aspects (I think most were originally likitas) separately might end up telling us something about "fourth corner mind" and efforts to divide, conquer and reduce primal earths to more manageable roles. Or not!

It is thrilling to see so many people really engaging with the Entekosiad. Your explorations are the future. 

50 minutes ago, Borygon said:

my notes are a mess.

The Empire and the White Moon welcome Plentonic Debate.

Just now, jajagappa said:

Can't say I've seen that picture, but cool!  (Always loved the alchemical transformer and its blind cave oxen!)

Room for further research then, I guess . . . or maybe they are a hero wars faction yet to be formed. The Brian Crist sign-off makes me think it was some kind of in-joke they were using in that era. Just no idea what the referent might be but since this is dog country I thought maybe you might have the trail.

Yeah, somewhere Greg is on record loving those old Lin Carter paperbacks. Might have to dig it up. 

Love it. Hey @jajagappa while we have you here, what do you know about "dog brothers?"

1 hour ago, Eff said:

I find it attractive (I'd add at least one more minor category), but I'll leave it to him to clarify.

"Clarify." 😆I'm looking forward to that addition / refinement. One challenge facing the Eat "Prey" Love Hypothesis is its lack of gender sophistication or even a "room of her own." 

I love the question. In this context I would start by saying that there are two orders of entity here. "Likita" is most properly the primal earth whom Yelm seduced and then the elemental array of srvulae [sic] emanating from her. Likita herself appears very rarely and is probably a mask of "GA" or "GA TA." 

The likitas, on the other hand, are mostly female, which makes Doyang Likite, father of the brown vadelites, somewhat special. His feminine relatives include Britha (mother and father), Seshna (aunt), the mysterious Kalaeda and in at least one genealogy Ernalda. However, Ernalda does not appear west of Wenelia in this era and not before circa 230 even there. I would be reluctant to project anything from her modern cult into this material, especially until we can see her complicity in the larger dragon consciousness narrative.

They appear as dragons and are friendly with dragons. I suspect the Pelorian Serpent Mothers (WF 7) are a parallel manifestation but have not made a real effort to find out as the Eat/Love ("elf") vertex consumes my limited brainpower right now. They confer both authority and when pushed tectonic power.

While checking these details I find a page that might interest Martin on "The Army of Seshnela" that starts "the rapid rise of the kingdom . . . " but he might already have it.

34 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Who discovered DarOria? Under what context (EWF, anti-EWF, Bull Shah?)

That, I do not know. My initial gut was that this was the reorganization of goddess spirituality after the Kill but before the Carmanian occupation . . . the men are gone, the women have a surprising amount of time in some areas for the old ways to surface, grow and then get plowed back under with the coming of the shahs. Deezola, after all, ruled in her own right, which should be fairly unthinkable in unreconstructed Dara Happan terms. 

However, MGF cases can be made for the cult being an EWF plot similar to the Dragon Sun only aimed at the earth cults instead (trying to give the impossible emperor a wife?), a female analogue to the Karvanyar resistance movements (Karvanyar as "white" sun) or even part of whatever was going on with those wild women of the western reaches breeding monsters. Tracking the snakes probably helps us rule some hypotheses in or out . . . I seriously doubt a post-Kill goddess would start out with a snake in her hand before Hon-Eel creates her own red version of the cult. Looking at it again, I suspect the surviving lampressae were slaughtered in the post-EWF purges but again could be wrong.

I hear you. The Mothers were practically impeccable just to do what they did, even though it had unforeseen consequences. Women's magic and women's history were always poorly documented . . . imagine a Western quester doing something similar for Menena! But it's progress. What's striking about this revelation for me is that it situates Valare Addi within a tradition of efforts to rehabilitate various goddess movements in the literal shadow of the DH chauvinist complex. She wasn't the first or the last female genius thinking about these things. 

The directions are always messed up. Yuthubars moves "south" as the center shifts, which may be part of the upheavals as the dome rocked. I like this because it explains my persistent question about where "north" and "west" really should be assigned and also which direction someone on the Spike faces. The Chalana and elf documents I have say that you face "west" so Danmalastan is ahead of you and your right hand would then create the White Sea. The Camps narrative has the sun facing "east," which means he goes backward today. Weirdly this makes the East the real land of the sun, which I like a whole lot. As usual, Plentonius is more comic figure than sage.

I think 4 on the Wall is I-4 under a different name or in a different phase in his development much as 6 appears elsewhere and many other entities repeat. But that's not a fight I really want to have right now . . . people looking to make me cry should take advantage!

Silver as female gold should be really interesting in a Malkionite context. Like a woman, I suppose. 

51 minutes ago, Eff said:

Verithurusa/Lesilla/Gerra

Love it. We are a healthy distance from Robert Graves now and receding mile by mile.

Lesilla's role as "hinge" between the exoteric menarche cycle (1=3=1) and something more esoteric (maybe 1=4=1) reminds me that I was only recently informed that DarOria is a "late Second Age" discovery imported or constructed to syncretize various female cults. Under that name the Pelandan quadrate goddess (Arira / Naveria / Lesilla / Koveria) was consolidated into a single cosmic figure like Glorantay or Arachne Solara. Deezola would have been familiar with this and this may actually have been her goddess.

Oraya appears to remain a hotbed of DarOria worship to this day. The fourth station is of course profound because unlike the triplicate goddess of the south the Bride both acquiesces to the name of the father and serves as sacrificer. I wonder if this is part of the religion Arim brought to Tarsh, in which case the Phargentites get even crazier + more glorious.

Of course the whiteness of the page as holding box has its talmudic abjection. I love the talmudic abjection. White chaos. White noise. White light white heat.

EDIT Deezola's square rune. But nobody ever just says "earth" here. Something else with four corners.

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

As for the last, perhaps the dwarfs have it in hiding somewhere? or Sedenya swallowed it so it is hidden inside her body?  Actually I guess they both can be True. It was the dwarfs secret plot to keep the White Moon from being destroyed by the Storm Gods - they tricked Sedenya into swallowing the Egg (it was in the Earth where the Crater now is), and it is hidden and dormant within her.  But she must commit utuma for the Egg to be released.

I like a plurality of prophets so yeah, someone in the Movement probably preaches all these things and MORE. The dwarves have promised new wonders in the sky. I hear they don't trade so much as stockpile silver coin for something. Only a White Dancer of Power, if such a creature is more than rumor, would be able to forecast that economy.

Either way, opening up Palasper right here and right now is mighty fishy timing. 

12 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I've seen very little over the years on the White Moon Movement.  Maybe they all follow the words of an Altinae "guru" dressed in the robes of Chalana who speaks words of "harmony and understanding".  

Love it. If I were them I would be aware of the "foreign chaos masterplot" and take steps accordingly. Their gospel could easily look uncannily like a version of New Hrestol Idealism mysteriously translated into New Pelorian.

I keep coming back to the whiteness of the robes. Getting blood stains out of old cloth is hard stuff so if Chalana can't get new weave fast I wonder if her people have access to bleach or some other strong solvent . . . take something (a garment, a soul) that's gotten vague with experience and zap it to a white stage. I guess the Cleansed One knows how the laundry works.

EDIT: obligatory kate bush reference "hello. i know that you've been feeling tired. i bring you love . . . and deeper understanding."

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

I've always imagined that the Moon after Sunstop should have risen white, but the Seven Mothers made something different (a bit like Dune where Paul is a generation too soon and is not what the plan was meant to make). It was the tampering that made Nysalor that was the problem. It birthed Natha into the world not Tareltara.

Love it. Their desperation definitely put the pieces together wrong . . . but wrong is better than nothing when you're in a hurry. If I were playing technician I'd attribute it to a limitation on how their sacrifices functioned.

The scrambled sequence explains all the esoteric fiddling with things like the Masks of the Goddess. It just doesn't run smoothly when you start it at the wrong phase. I am not going to critique their liberating feminism (we've come a long way babies) but they needed to be impeccable. Too many goddesses bolted onto the three- (or four-) step process. I see that earlier efforts to reconstruct a DenegEria were not enough. Even Hon-Eel seems to be tinkering with that system later on in order to get what she wants so now all they can see is DenegOria in what becomes White Moon Country.

DenegOria is an interesting compromise but while Hon-Eel is a genius her mindset just can't quit weaponizing earth forces to literally turn the lozenge red. The distinction between moon magician and really, really effective earth priestess may be razor thing. She had u(ndoubtedly read Valare Addi and scribbed a few notes in the margins. Snake goddess, DenegOria. Esoteric Ernalda is a snake goddess too. So is Entekos as water bearer. Sure, I've read Freud and Elaine Pagels. But apply it to what we know about the western hsunchen. Oh good, there's Joerg on the line.

EDIT I've been fishy on the "Z=Y" complex for ages, so yeah, I suspect Zaytenar* is a lunar/feminine abdication and renunciation like Dayzatar. The "Y" (truth rune) is not pronounced. Plus: no feet! This phase is what you get when the old king retires instead of being sacrificed. Same with the old queen. 

So there is an esoteric snake earth woman cult in the southeast. The Seshnans called them likitae and I keep hunting their traces in Peloria. A current of "Ernalda" starts circulating in Maniria, borne on the backs of pig people. Shortly thereafter "serpent beast" shamanism emerges. Mikyh is rarely pictured but her husband is a dragon.

And as for the northeast, we had it all along and I keep forgetting. Dorasta's totem is the wolfbear, some fantastic hybrid creature that can only be described as an accumulation of parts. I don't think it could fly. Maybe its feet were special though.

Looking back into the archives I encounter myself again and again like immature arkats. I would do it all differently today but those kids got me where I am now so I can't blame them. I apologize for the times they irritated you.

But in the archives I find surprisingly little substantive about where the White Moon Movement comes from and what they're really all about. Yeah, they're hippies. What kind of hippies? Pacifists? Fourierists? Waldensians? Answers would be useful as I try harder to anticipate the Hero Wars from the Lunar point of view and uh gin up some prophetic complexity. Otherwise Argrath simply gets everything he wants and I know you hate that. Let's make it a little tough for him.

What I know is that they come out of Oraya, which was largely settled by refugees fleeting the Arrolian diaspora, which had originally Gone West carrying a mass of pre-Seleran heresies as well as more orthodox aspects of the lunar way now lost in the heartland. Think of the Nationalist retreat to Taiwan stripping the museums and taking the old-school Beijing Opera companies, etc. That community had a few generations out there to develop in relative isolation. Then, the eastern threat evaporates and the west gets hot, leading many to once again take what they can, this time to the redland frontier.

There was already a Temple of the White Heart out there before the Fourth Wane so those with white moon sympathies would have a special reason to head all the way across the empire and try to make another fresh start. The farming is good. Amazing soil, the kind of yields that would have made grandpa cry back in Arrolia. And you're on one of the most important caravan routes in the world so wealth and exotic ideas get captured on the way across. The nomads are quiet. Your kids have time and leisure to study and nurse idealisms. It's great soil for idealism. The empire isn't paying attention.

There was a white "moon" goddess acknowledged among Jonat's people in old drafts. Maybe just a planet, who knows. Maybe a ghost of a former sky only visible in the far north. Moon people fleeing what looked then like the end of the world would have found that out and brought it back with them. What else? 

What I can trade is that some people say that when Yelmdrya's people died out the trolls came. Were these the original northern forests? The "Spike," sure. But look at the alternation of color, black for white fringed by a kind of "yellow" that might not actually represent conventional embyli in their jungles. Possibly more of an amber or an alabaster color, an elf mood now lost or hidden.

The Twin stars pulse red to "yellow-white." Flamal's color is amber . . . again, wherever amber comes from in your Glorantha. The Pelorians put amber in the far east and that was the direction prehistoric Yelm faced. Alabaster and whiteness were in the north. A white queen ruled before Brightface as part of the sprawling and complex Naverian complex. Arroin is sometimes translated as "healing waters" by those who know him best. He does not provide magic but instead knows herbal medicine. As owner of a Power Rune, Chalana is a little more complicated than the Leonard Cohen in-jokes suggest. Jar-eel favors the harp and I don't see the White Moon Debates as having been conclusive one way or the other. 

Deezola as modern healing goddess who ruled a minor fief in the Arcos valley. She was learned in the pre-lunar earth complex. Some sources even associate her with "Arachne Solara," whatever that means up in bird country. The "white" goddess associated with the (Permanent) full phase is obscured with redness. They have to let go. Like Dayzatar makes way, let go. Entekos is a white goddess. I am not convinced Zaytenerus is either, but what do I know?

There was a Six Word Version going around for awhile. Would be good to revisit different expressions, how they evolve over Time.

Today I like "nothing is true / everything is permitted."