Ali the Helering

Whow! I believe that I am answered!😀 

Many thanks

Thank you both.  My thinking for the underground temples was something along the lines of Hal-Saflieni in Malta, albeit less developed in the Dawn Age, probably similar in Hortugarth.

The term comes from the entry in the History of the Heortling Peoples.  Each of the two settlements you mention have 150 inhabitants at the Dawn, Tor Balur now being the Plain of Stones and Tor Vara now Hortugarth.

This description is used for the Dawn Age Balurgans.  I have my own ideas as to quite what this means, but would be grateful for other opinions.

RQ answered my frustration with AD&D, and Glorantha gave me a world to explore with many friends over the 39 years since.  

Greg was a mighty star in the Skydome, and a great spirit drummer in the dance that declares 'We are all Uz'.

Travel well on your next part of the greatest quest.

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I imagine that the warrior societies of Seshnela may teach their members martial arts based upon their beast.

The Snake Society housed in Laraness could favour quick strikes, both with hand and blade, their martial arts designed to strike from angles their opponent wouldn't expect, or block blows by entwining limbs.

In comparison, Levane's Lion Society could be focused on brutal boxing techniques, designed to put people out of commission as fast as possible. Equally however, they could also be trained in Quickdraw, bringing their weapons to action in a single moment. Useful for bodyguards like Rodtakmar.

 

Of course, there's also the Peacock Society with their Antisocial Alarm Call attack....

I think there's a simple basis for bending of light over the Gloranthan ocean -

Magasta's Pool doesn't only affect water.

4 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, by that reductionist (and for our current purposes: quite absurd) definition, the Dara Happans are in fact barbarians too, being non-Greek.

Now, I won't press the matter further since it's not a huge deal, but suffice to say, my main issue is whether a term is useful or not. In this debate, from what I can tell, the term has been more a source of confusion and cross-talk than a solid analytical tool with which to clarify things, which is ideally how fixed terminology should work.

It is, in essence, a flavor term which is descriptive and cool, but that is about it, really.

Must agree to disagree. Perhaps YRWWV!😇

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

The finger bone usage of phalanges is a parallel, I believe, not a predecessor of its use in the sense of "battle formation". The earliest root usages I could find is that the term phalanx is a cognate of English "plank", from a PIE root that essentially means, beam, pole, or stick. This sense applies itself both to finger bones and spears, of course, as well as carrying poles (for bindles and the like). Anyway, this is straying a tad too far away.

On another note, while I understand the flavorful, "rule of cool" desire to use the term "barbarian" (it's practically a gaming/fantasy staple, and heavily worked into Gloranthan Orlanthi's real-world public image), in terms of actually applying such a term to populations of people, it is - without exception - a heavily politicized and derogatory term. Less so, perhaps, very very early on when it simply meant "non-Greek speaker", but by the time it'd entered Latin usage, and by extension European popular imagination, it's become essentially a term meaning "culturally inferior". 

I guess what I'm saying is that unless there's some good, uncontroversial definition of barbarian that can be agreed upon within Glorantha, it's probably best to avoid it in serious debate, and leave it for the fluff articles (where DHs surely will use the term liberally against their Orlanthi neighbors) and promotional material. It's barely a step from calling Hsunchen or Doraddi "savages", imho.

The PIE root is debatable, as is much concerning a reconstructed language. The imagery of the parallel fingers and out-thrust spears is, however, clear.

As for barbarians, my ancestors were barbarians (being non-Greek) who practiced barbarism (being Borders reivers) and there is no shame to that. It is historical fact.

As a definition of a non-city based tribal society, the word will serve our purposes without importing any prejudicial (and therefore false) meaning.

As for fantasy stereotypes, I am afraid that we are as stuck with them as we are RW stereotypes. We have dragons, we have magic, we have monsters with vile natures, woodland dryads and subterranean dwarves.  Stereotypes are a convenience, and even Greg uses them.

Actually the word Phalanx means 'finger bones', by extension taken to describe spears pointing forward side by side.

The use as a battle formation is by a further extension in turn.

Hill Barbarian is a subjective term. To Dara Happans the highly civilized other peoples of Peloria are probably seen as barbarians, hill or otherwise.

To the Kralorelans the term surely implies Everybody Else.  

In the RW the Greeks (correctly) called the Romans barbarians.

Sairdites are pure Hill Barbarians, the level of urbanisation being irrelevant.

I imagine that each Trickster 'knows' the One True Site. For given values of One' and 'True', naturally.....

Firshala, Granny, Rigitania and Sakkar (through his avatar Greyrunner) worship, that of Durbaddath (by authority of the GodsWall) may all have developed significantly.

Has the Windsword been taken?

An attempt to regrow the Great Tree burnt by Arkat might replace/augment an Aldryan seed-planting.

What relics of the ancient Gork queendom have been unearthed?  

Has Skilfil imported a Rinliddin cult to support the giant vroks?

How far has Holay extended its reach? If they've had to withdraw, have any stayed behind?

Are there more Heortling refugees, or have those hanging around Trilus gone home?

Have either or both of Festering Island and the Chaos Holy Ground developed into major Chaos sites?

Just a few musings off the top of my head.

Why would the shaman want to reduce your need and ability to gain a closeness to the spirits?

I would suggest Addiction Spirits hang around shamanic rituals as a matter of course.

17 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

In the films and comics perhaps; in the original fiction Conan had a sensible approach to armor...

Sensible, yes. Poetic, no. Combat Styles are interesting not least in the way you can be limited to improving your armour if it hinders an established Style.

An inability to dextrously dress himself may explain why he is eternally 'naked, save for a loincloth'. Dex 1 looking good

Wales fell to Edward Longshanks 700 years ago. Does anyone imagine that the English have been forgiven, or the conquest forgotten?

Hadrian reigned rather more remotely, and Haaman dominated the Achaemenid empire around 2400 years ago. They still figure strongly in some Jewish communities consciousness.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The 

The problem is that once you try to enshrine that complexity in the rules,  it’s hard to do so without actually simplifying it by ascribing to it a level of consistency. Ie once you write down rules for every subcult, as Hero Wars attempted, you are implying that those sub cults are relatively consistent, rather than a constantly evolving tapestry of evolving variations. I much prefer a level of inconsistency where we have lists of sub-cults etc, but free to use than as inspirational variation rather than the Hero Wars collection of minor runes giving us a lot more names in the main divine taxonomy, but making it more rigid and codified in the process. I certainly want a rich Gloranthan mythology that approaches RW complexity -but I don’t think having character abilities chosen from bigger lists of divine names each with a rune and a set list of feats is the best way to achieve that. 

YGWV. I think we must agree to differ

2 hours ago, davecake said:

MGF and reflective of the ancient RW are not necessarily congruent - players often enjoy anachronisms, and seldom enjoy the level of inconsistency we see with the actual RW reflected in the rules. There are pretty good reasons why fashions in game design has gradually shifted away from detailed simulationism.

But its also worth noting that the move from 'lots of tiny small specific runes for each entity' back towards focussing on the core runes for rules purpose had a lot to do with playtesting - and it is totally not a case of 'gregging', eg its not a change in 'Glorantha', but a rules change of how we represent Gloranthan detail in play. There is still a rune for eg Hedkoranth, and Hedkoranth still has slightly different powers to the other Thunder Brothers. But in play it turns out to be much less confusing to say 'Hedkoranths magic is a sub-cult of Orlanth that works via the Storm rune and grants a few extra abilities', than it is to have a special rune for Hedkoranth that no one else will recognise, when 90% of the time you character is effectively a Storm wielding Orlanth cultist that throws Thunder stones instead of lightning bolts. Its like caring about whether your dagger is a poignard or a saex, or the colour of your shirt - cool if it matters, potentially culturally very significant, but not a difference we care about in the rules most of the time.  The hundreds of special runes in the Hero Wars era were great for adding that cultural depth we like, but make the rules more confusing, not less (you ended up with special cases of how to deal with sub-cult changes, overlap between gods, overly specific mythologies, and lots of other weird little things that actually made the rules work less like the ancient RW). 

But I love them for cultural detail. That bit in the HeroQuest orlanthi character sheets where you fill in your tribal/character tattoos, for example? Reach for that list... 

Gregging can work in a number of ways, and a change in the rule system changes the way the world is perceived.  That fashion has changed simply means that it is fashion, not that it is better.  IMO the complexity of the rules is something that can either enhance or hinder play and simulation, depending on the group, and I do not for one second believe you can have overly specific mythologies if you want to approach RW religious complexity. 

Some of us remain simulationist.  I am seriously considering abandoning HQ, and returning to RQ, although not without regret. 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

You are entirely free to make your own rules. I'm just clarifying what the existing ones are. Apparently not clarifying as much as I had hoped. 

The rules at this given moment, yes.

Having been gregged fifteen ways till Tuesday since I started with RQ2 in the late 70s, I prefer to find the form of play that is both MGF and reflective of the ancient RW.  YGMV.  MGDV.

Sorry, still have to disagree 🤔

I don't think that having a 'lesser' Rune makes it a lower case rune. The degree of specialisation can make it more precisely effective than a generalized 'core' Rune. 

Having a narrow vision for a keyword is interesting in itself, as though one has taken on unforced gaeasa.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Spot on. 

And where a lesser rune is more about a mild specialisation than about a significant limit (eg a specific Thunder Brother, or a hero cult) there really isn't a lot of point in distinguishing a specific rune in play.

I have to disagree. The player can play up a 'lesser' rune to their heart's content, and thereby make the character ever more distinctive. A small starting difference can be used to great long term effect.

Woody. Aldryan superhero????

4 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes notes that most of the lesser runes are subsets of Core Runes, and that the game simulates them as just placing restrictions on the deity's runes to show their usage. (Page 72)

I think, conversely, you can also use the lesser runes in play to as a reminder of the limitations of a character's rune affinity usage.

For example, Yelmalio is frequently given the Light Rune, a specialized form of the Fire rune, showing he has lost the heat and warmth of the original rune. This can help as a reminder that Yelmalians can't make arrows burst into flame, and that they may need to find another way to defeat gorp and other similar creatures.

Likewise, you can use the Horse, Yinkin, or Bear runes as subsets of the beast rune (often combined with an element). Acting as a reminder that an Odaylan isn't likely to be able to use their rune to calm down a herd of cattle (It might even act as a flaw!) Or a Babeester Gori could have the Malign Earth to remind the player that they can't use the more life-supporting aspect of the earth. And Helerans use the Rain rune to show their god's power of Water-in-Air, while Pamalt's shamans can use the Power rune to do... whatever it is that makes the Power rune different from the Mastery rune.

 

 

My thinking is that, rather than acting as a restriction, the 'derived' rune qualifies the way in which the core rune is known.

Using your Yelmalian example, I would see the Light rune indicating an intrusion into Darkness rather than the fiery destruction one might expect of Elmal or Yelm.

His fertility aspect is active in the period of ripening, rather than in the drying of fields.

I do like your image of an Odaylan calming frightened cattle. It could, of course, be on the level of "They thought the Sakkar was scary? Wait till they get a load of me!"

Actually, I would want to encourage players to indulge their originality as we co-operatively work to incorporate their chosen cult runes into the game.

I do prefer a complex religious landscape, and I feel that this is a big contribution to that.

YGWV, and mine certainly does!

That the felt is of lesser quality is a subjective human judgment. The material has a rougher and more fibrous quality (having been compared to dredlocks) which may well be favoured by some markets, such as the Uz.