Ali the Helering

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Perhaps a simple model of the tribes of Sartar a year at a time would be a good start.

My point is that the religions that are significant will have a potential impact on each and every tribe, but the particular local combos will have an overarching effect.  A simple model for a tribe will in no way be a good indicator for the reality of each clan within it.  That is where the outcome of the questionnaire interfaces interestingly with the suggested indicators. 

33 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm not disagreeing. However there is no baseline for doing this. GMs and players are encouraged to do the questionnaire themselves. Every clan will be different for every gamer. There are some overall concepts that will be clear, like who borders who, some info in the guide about places and clans but nothing overall. Unless of course you want to do a relationship flowchart for all of Sartar. That might be possible on a tribal level, but only for specific time periods.

Thank you David, that wasn't meant to come over as assertion of a disagreement, simply as a purpose.  As I have said elsewhere, I fully acknowledge myself to be a pedantic simulationist!  My files of clans occupy about a third of a bookcase as a result.  My wife is very tolerant.

36 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

The point I would make is that possible advantages due to magic are just that possible advantages.

Just because there is the magical potential it doesn't mean its used or that war, famine, bad leadership, political jiggery pokkery and general incompetence don't undermine or eliminate the magic advantages which exist.

Also greater magical power can lead to greater possibility of magic fubar, or societal disaster if magic fails.  This creates very interesting plot ideas and bring Glorantha magical society back to the game we love to play.

Indeed Jon, playing around with, and trying to give local justification to the stats is great fun, and sometimes highly productive.

A short foray into Humakt.

Death Rune Affinity - 'Cutting through elements' could aid with irrigation, quarrying and mining, and 'destroying weapons and armour' cut down on the need for fresh bronze.

Truth Rune Affinity - 'Swear Oath' could indicate a legal practise existing at the shrine, while 'sense disloyalty and identify traitor' could produce a highly unified, if somewhat smaller clan than usual.

Mercenary income could lead one to expect a higher War and Wealth rating.  Swords would be far more common than in most clans, especially if there is an Ingenew forge - remembering Tindalos' post above.  Since the first requirement for an Ingenew smith is metallurgy, one might look for a greater frequency of metal goods in general.

The Hiia subcult indicates (Storm Tribe) an ability at general land clearance (Cut Stone, Cut Wood) since his background doesn't indicate any animosity towards Mostali or Aldryami. 

8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I think you are spot on with the diversity of culture. But in order to reflect that I'd say that every clan has its own thing it can do well, a niche.

This where the whole thing gets into difficulties and abstractions such as the community values of Heroquest become more useful. Lets just say they are able to plough more land, that will in theory give more grain, in theory more food/fodder, a larger clan, then what. If it's being able to turn difficult land to the plough more readily, that means they can live in a more difficult area and produce the same amount of grain. All these clans are butted up against each other in Sartar. Any one overwhelming niche ability can give a clan the edge in power of the area. I think overall these all balance out I'm not saying these specialisms don't exist, as I believe they do. I just think they are offset by the specialisms of the other clans. Imbalances do occur and this is where problems arise. e.g. More people can mean more warriors, which can mean more raiding, etc.

On any path - doesn't the clan generator produce these variations anyway, that's my experience.

Yup, absolutely, but looking at it this way enables you to explain and illustrate the differences more fully.  If wealth is indicated in one particular way, it means wealth creation in others can be downplayed.  For example - the Barntar-strong cult whose questionnaire indicates intensive farming but has only a moderate wealth outcome for other reasons could be portrayed as lacking in pasture or crafters.

Thanks Joerg - variation is the key!

If one were to look at Argan Argar and the Torkani, working from the Sartar Companion primarily.

The Darkness Rune Affinity obviously assists in trade with the Kitori, the Shadow Plateau, Dagori Inkarth and Cliffhome.  Therefore I would anticipate an increased amount of chitin, lead and obsidian based goods, even if not enormously so.  The ability to walk unheard and unseen in darkness and shadows would increase the chances of successful night raids, particularly since the Elmal write-up states that only they have night patrols. (The Star Watch S:KoH p153)  Given the ability to summon and command beings of Darkness, there is even a reasonable chance of Darkbeasts on occasion.

The Communication Rune Affinity indicates a general increase in traded wealth, although in no way rivalling that of an Issaries-strong community.

Staying with Issaries and Boldhome, Jonstown and Wilmskirk.

The Communication Rune Affinity has a very broad range of effects. Firstly the economic - blessing a market, blessing a transaction, getting a fair price, and assessing value.  Secondly the spiritual - the ability to speak with the dead and with deities.  Thirdly the social - neutral ground, poetry and prose and friendship.  These would indicate a high rating in Magic, Morale and Wealth, with areas/shrines specialised in these different functions.

The Movement Rune Affinity and the wanderlust it produces/requires could make for further-reaching trade and peace-making expeditions.  

Joerg noted on the 'Money in Orlanthi Society' thread, in response to diversions off  "Speaking of everyday magic, and trying to return to the topic of money -"

Taking his point entirely, and not wishing to further derail that topic, I wondered if it could be interesting to continue the discussion indicated by the new title here.  I am always keen to move beyond the generic and to introduce local differences within a culture, because no culture is monolithic.  I don't think that this is simply on a waste-not want-not basis, but is an implicit part of a groups' being and self-expression.

So, to start the ball rolling, for those clans that are strong in Barntari magic, particularly within the Cinsina and Culbrea tribes as per S:KoH

Quoting from the Subcult of Orlanth "His worshippers use the Air or Movement Rune affinities to aid in ploughing fields"

Storm Tribe lists his feats as relating to the preparation of fields for ploughing, mastering domesticated animals, and physical strength.  Therefore, I would assume the following:

1 They are able to farm more land than their neighbours, being able to turn difficult land to the plough more readily.  This is especially so if the cult secret 'Plow Any Field' is used. 

2 Particularly due to 'Tame Bull', their cattle herd will be more diverse, including more recently wild blood-lines

Adric Sharpear, a sturdy young Yelmalion, available to perform almost any act with almost anyone (Never with Darkness creatures). Part of the price is the guarantee that afterwards you will whip him as penance for being a very naughty Yelmalion.

Assessing the value of coin could determine the amount of base metal added to the mix.

At the moment that tool is HQ (although I sometimes long for simulationist RQ) which doesn't seem to place the same 'recharge' limitation on affinity usage.

Even with the RQ model, I respectfully have to take some issue with you Joerg, simply on the grounds that sometimes an edge is all you need to excel.  The act of bringing the forge fire up to heat is a once-a-day event, but it frees up a thrall from the bellows for other work and is an act of dedication to Gustbran or Ingenew.

Accepting that the magics of the underlying social deities bring damaged Glorantha up to survival level, those of tribal and clan preference can give each community significant features of their own. As a simple example, the cultic duty of Hedkoranthi to mine flint for thunderstone use will probably result in an excess of chalk.  This can be used to dress walls and battlements, act as a matrix for herbal charms, coat hair for that distinctive spiky appearance, and be used to make temporary marks, to name but a few applications.

5 hours ago, TRose said:

 Well lets look how some spells could be used for every day life.

 First would be IGNITE. .Starting a fire to cook dinner or work as a bronze smith just got a whole lot easier . Not to mention one to keep warm on a cold rainy night.

   We got REPAIR  to fix that broken chair or plate that was dropped. No longer a need to buy a new one.

 And there GLUE.  It does not last long granted , but a cabinet maker or other craftman can use glue to make sure  the wooden pieces stay in place  before he nails them together. and then

 And lets go back to BLADESHARP. As pointed out it last just two minutes, but a Butcher or Lumberjack can cast it at the start of their job when the cutting is the toughest. And I can see a set of prized Butcher knives with a permanent Blade sharp being passed from one master chef to another. Not that any uncouth Orlanthi would ever steal such knives from Halcyon favorite Chef.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I've always assumed the battle magic listed in RQ  is juts a selection of the everyday common magic found with Glorantha, juts the type which is most interesting to adventures and warrior types.

For every bladesharp there is a plow straight, steady hands ( increase craft ), calm animal, increase yield type spell which juts isn't mentioned as its not directly relevant to the game.

All of which either encourages output to far exceed RW norms, or massively increases the cultural and leisure time available.

'twas but a joke my liege.... 

The question is worth examining, however. What are the effects of 'everyday magic' on the economy of clan and city? How appropriate are RW models to Glorantha?

Should Barntar have a Trueplough feat, one wonders....

Sorry for the spelling and grammar in the above, in considerable pain today.

I have to admit, I always think of GRoY in the same way I think of the Hebrew Scriptures - a desperate attempt to justify a nation and ruler based on constructed history where theology is far more important than mere fact. The nation is surrounded by physical foes, and the population permeated by spiritual ones. My Dara Happa is a seething mass of dispute and dissent, despite the fanciful perfectionism of the Yelmites.

Despite earlier suggestions I am not primarily a Biblical scholar but a social anthropologist of religion. Economics, history, demography, myth and philosophy are, of course, implicit to such study.

59 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

It may be built on the site of the Onetree exchange, where Issaries showed Orlanth and Genert how to deal with each-other peacefully.

The petrified tree might be at the heart of the temple, with chips used to hold a specific temple magic. The Genert connection could be the reason the Aldryans keep coming back...

Indeed, and they are still popular in South America. More commercially available is a new-wish line, named - I think - the Adirondack blue.

The blue spheroid sprouting forth alkaloid-laden shoot, leaves and fruit in a doomed attempt to reach the sky could have true mythic resonance for the Blue Lunies!

As Jon notes, as a societal overview the Bible has definite usability, provided you always bare in mind the political and religious purpose and bias behind many of the books, and the fact that many of the books are not written in the era they purport to represent. An excellent resource for Bronze and early Iron age economics may be found in Pritchard's Ancient Near Eastern Texts (fondly abbreviated to ANET) ISBN 069103503-2..

An USAF colonel friend of mine was appalled to discover that the ancient world was full of 'command economies' rather than free trade, upon reading it. 

Darius, it is such a joy to discover someone who knows the Biblical languages better than the present generation of Bible translators, who have NOT used the KJV as a basis for their work.  The poor dears only use their doctoral level abilities, without the joy of your insight to enlighten them. Get real.

How long have I studied economics? 39 years.

Darius, don't try to argue Biblical texts with a minister of the Gospel. Matthew 25 verse 27.

"then you should have invested my money with the bankers, and on my return I would have received what was my own with interest."

Deposit, interest, ergo banking.

Linguistically, would you argue that the Romans didn't use swords since the weapon was named a gladius?

Pardon the break in typing.

Classical era China and India also have indications of banking.

Further details on Greece :  Temples were the early banks, especially Artemis of Ephesus, Hera of Samoa and Apollo of Delphi.

By the 2nd century BCE privately owned banks are documented in 35 cities.

By the 1st century CE, Athens Corinth and Patras were accepted centres of banking.

3 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Actually the first banks were set up around jewellers vaults in Medieval Italy and they began to embezzle money to fund new loans (primitive leveraging), until people found out and demanded a cut (3% on deposit per customer).  These banks were relying on new capital input to fund their embezzlement, and that is in essence a ponzi scheme.  It is a fundamental part of credit creation that a fundamentally fraudulent transaction is legalized.  In fact banking is one step worse than a ponzi scheme as most people invest in a ponzi scheme rather than going into debt with one.  

So to use your example a bank takes Paul's money and loans it to Peter while placing both of them in debt and charging them interest and re-loaning the same money up to twenty times and also re-investing it for their own profit if it suits them.  Its a ponzi scheme, just a sophisticated ponzi scheme with strong legal backing.

Sometimes there is a period when people lose confidence in a bank and the depositors go to the bank en masse to withrdaw their funds.  This is called a Bank Run https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_run.  Coincidentally this is also exactly what a ponzi scheme looks like when it fails.

Needless to say that what I am telling you is also something that people in the finance industry don't like people being aware of.  The true reason why we don't call banks ponzi schemes is because ponzi schemes are illegal unless they are called banks.  Oddly, this legal protection means that your money is almost perfectly safe in a bank.  Isn't that an interesting historical accident?  Thanks Italy.

Sorry Darius, but you really need to go to the RW equivalents, not something dating two millennia later. The first banks are Sumerian and Assyrian, not Italian. The Classical Greeks develop the concept, and the Ancient (not Medieval) Romans even further. If you know your New Testament, you may recall Jesus mentioning banking in the parable of the Talents.

7 hours ago, David Weihe said:

But Asrelia owns the hidden wealth, not the Maran cultists, and they are less likely to go on spending splurges, being older and even more ruthlessly logical than their female children (we can ignore the male Orlanthi, who are just too emotional to be trusted) .  Better to keep it in the ground under their control than mining it for today (barring catastrophes where the clan or tribe needs cash NOW!). Furthermore, if Maran can mine so well, the mines would have been exhausted during the Second Age when the locals were connected to even more trade-oriented societies than Sartar was during the kingship periods.

However, the Macedonian mines of Philip II had an annual output in excess of 1,000 talents of silver and considerable quantities of gold. Some of those mines were recently reopened since they were never exhausted. The Maranites are comparatively few in number, but could access materials disproportionately plentifully. Aurelia stores treasure, hiding it from thieves, not her sisters.

Somewhere there is a joke lurking concerning George W Small-Aldryami and his freedom fries, but I can't seem to figure it out....

One of the definitions of money I like is 'portable power'.  It is a means of transferring value, and simplifies the structures of earlier societies spoken of by Tindalos and Darius.

All well and good, but that doesn't answer the original question.  We are considering a society with different resources to ours - particularly in the field of magic.  Maran cultists can expose a vein of ore for easier and safer extraction than in the RW.  I would expect Earth oriented clans to have significantly greater metal resources than others, with Wintertop as a major source.  Therefore silver coinage would be easier to produce than history indicates.

The Mostali are metallurgists beyond the dreams of either Bronze or Iron Ages, and clack production is simplicity itself. 

In the RW silver and lead often accompany one another in deposits, and if Glorantha follows suit one may expect a thriving trade between silver users and the uz.

Gold is prized  by the Sun Domers, and they could be expected to pay well in silver for any that became available.

For these reasons I would expect silver and copper currency in the form of ingots and coins to be far more common than in our 'equivalent' past.  Wheels should still be extremely rare outside of solar lands, and as for bolgs.....

He was incarnated by the Lord Master of the Demons of Death IIRC. I think this implies control over a realm of demons, rather than a collective being.

There is no particular reason that a war deity cannot also be experienced as a Darkness spirit.

Zolan Zubar was incorporated/supplanted by Zorak Zorn, who seems to have considerable resonances with war and darkness himself.

Zolan Zubar?

You are most welcome.  As ever, it is but an interpretation, but one I thought particularly appropriate for Northern Pent.