Darius West

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Jeff posted originally in FB in March 2021.  Summary of his post here: 

 

That is interesting and useful.  Thanks Jajagappa.  The notion of the Invisible God/Malkion providing the magic points for certain spells is a very interesting idea.  I suspect the caste Rightness rules are going to need considerable fleshing out.  Will it be handled like Honor is in Land of Ninja I wonder?

19 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They acquire Rightness in their actions which allows them to use Caste Magic, a significaqnt distinction between themselves and people who are not Malkioni.  

Hang on, what is Caste Magic?  Where would I find a reference to it?  This is the first time I've heard anyone mention it.

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

OK so the "priests" of the Invisible God are zzaburi, exclusively. Think of them like brahmins or druids.  They hand the worship that EVERYONE participates in. So everyone is expected to be an initiate of the Invisible God.

But below that is folk religion, caste-specific cults, shamans, etc. They have their own leaders and officiants. The zzaburi-priests' attitude towards these cults range from approval to studied apathy to hostility, depending on the specific cult, traditions, etc.

But doesn't this make the Malkioni a minority religion in their own heartlands?  I mean, this portrays a society with a thin upper crust of genuine Malkioni sitting above the 'roiling mass' of a pagan underclass that could overthrow them at a moment's notice.  I mean, I'm not suggesting this is wrong in any way, and it certainly goes a long way towards explaining how the God Learners were so effective at infiltrating cults, but how on the Lozenge is social order maintained when people have these varied allegiances?  It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, sorcery or no sorcery.   I mean, it is a lot easier to get quite a lot of power from a group of initiates in a god that it is from zzaburi who have to train for decades.  Consider, if you have 10 initiates, you will statistically have 1 successful Divine Intervention that can potentially dispel any sorcery.  At some point the ruling class seem very much like hostages.

When I turn into a bat there's no real skill to it at all, I just shout "BAT!"

6 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Loskalm seems like the most prominent example. I'd imagine the "Brithini" mortals of God Forgot are another. They aren't worshiped among the Zzaburi or the Talars most places, the exceptions being places where there has been significant syncretism. As I see it, that "purist core" is ultimately going to be found in their social order rather than something territorial. Even if the Dronar worship Barntar or a river god, they still pay their homage to the Talar and support the magic of the Zzaburi, they can still socially locate themselves as Dronar. To me it doesn't sound sustainable, even just logistically, to ask people to support that social order, and a magical elite atop it, while also being denied any assistive magic of their own to make that exact task possible.

You raise a really good point here.  I think that it is a lot more likely for the Dronar to worship an unthreatening deity like Saint Barntar, rather than Saint Worlath or Saint Humath.

On 10/15/2022 at 2:44 AM, hipsterinspace said:

I believe the main workaround is that the gods they worship are technically their ancestors, which likely means their approach to them is different enough that it’s acceptable to the Rokari wizard caste. Also worth noting that most of the Malkioni are assimilated pagans and hsunchen, not of Brithini or Danmalistani descent, giving them pretty wide access to cults that are useful in carrying out the tasks demanded of dronar and horali. I’m guessing some Irensevalists have different ideas about what is permissible, especially the Loskalmi, and with the henotheists, Jonatelans, Trader Princes, and Aeolians you have a much more significant syncretism at every level.

I see the point and, to be fair, we do have the heresy of Invisible Orlanth, and the likes of St. Humath and St. Urox as potential patron saints/ascended masters, but we must also face the fact that this is a long way from pure Malkionism.  It's very questionable, and given that the Malkioni still fight wars over paganism, it is a long way from being acceptable.  It should be obvious to everyone that these are pagan deities merely being dressed up in Malkionism.  It's like Malkionism has really admitted defeat on the issue of pagan deities, and somehow that doesn't sit right with me.  Malkionism doesn't seem to have enough of a 'purist core' territorially to maintain itself as a distinct religious ideology.  There must be areas where these pseudo ascended masters that are really pagan deities are never worshipped within Malkioni lands.

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Ducks constitute their own tribe.

Their own intensely loved and respected tribe.😆

19 hours ago, David Scott said:

 Maran Gor is a tiny cult, but important here as this where her Great Temple is and so dominates the local politics.

The Earthshakers are one of the most lethal and powerful forces at work in Dragon Pass during the Hero Wars.  They have the power to wipe out armies (the plural is deliberate as I have seen them destroy Sartar AND the Lunar Empire in one hit in the wargame).  They may not be great in hand to hand, but magically?  Nightmare fuel.

I would enjoy seeing the Tarsh Exiles getting a proper treatment.  Who doesn't want to join the Moon Haters?

23 minutes ago, metcalph said:

No longer so.  And it has not been reflected in Greg's stories about the Malkioni either.  The Church thing was something created in a crunch in fill out details of the west for the Genertela boxed set.

The Wizards practice sorcery.  Other castes support the wizards.  In return they have Rightness and permission to worship gods that will not corrupt them.

Not corrupt them, you say...  Is this some sort of sleazy Rokari pragmatism?

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm wondering when the high holy day of the Black Spear Wyter might be.

I just want an opportunity to do something with wyters, to introduce the party to the concept. Then there's THE scenario to come next Sea Season.

It sounds like you've already given the matter a good deal of thought Phil.  You are following the Raymond Chandler advice of "showing the gun before using it in later scenes", and this sense of foreshadowing is important for immersion.  You can drop hints about its powers from when the players and their characters see how it actually acts upon the world.  

Given the location of its origins, I have always thought the Black Spear likely had a connection to Argan Argar (only Old One/Shadow Plateau) and/or Lodril (Caladraland).

What we know is that Chief Colymar Hordrosson hurled the Black Spear across the Line of Death and followed it into the Nymie Valley.  This raises questions.  Did the spear dispel the dragonewt death magic?  Did it absorb the death magic?  Or was that magic already weakened by the Pure Horse Tribe coming to live in Dragon Pass?  I have read that when the Colymar tribe entered Dragon Pass, it looked as if they had been eaten by a dragon to those watching from behind the line (illusion?).  I understand that dragonewts sometimes use obsidian instead of flint too (Hidden Colymar EWF sympathies?).

I only raise this as it is possible that Freeze Day (darkness rune) might also be an option for a Holy Day.

It might be that there are layers of mystery involved in the Black Spear, known only to those who commune with the Ancestor Spirits of the Amangarn Clan of the Colymar Tribe, and perhaps the spirits of past Chiefs, Kings, and famous warriors who have been called upon the wield the Black Spear.

On 10/13/2022 at 9:17 AM, Godlearner said:

According to what Jeff has been posting on Facebook, that is not the case. Lower castes follow spirits and worship Gods. If they are initiated, then they will get divine intervention. 

That just doesn't seem right.  Malkionism is pretty clear on the point that worshipping Pagan deities is wrong.  While the Jrusteli bent those rules, they did so in the knowledge that they were stealing the power of the inferior entities in a fashion similar to theurgy, and of course now everything the Jrusteli ever did is a textbook on what not to do.  It doesn't make sense for the Malkioni lesser castes to worship lesser gods.  In fact it's heretical.

43 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That is something to work on: A LM hero's journey which exercises the skills of bureaucracy.  But I'll slip the mind numbing boredom, that is for between game sessions.

Nah, you can do it in-game.  You just fast forward until it is over, summarize what happened (if anything), and cost the player 1d6 SAN.  Then make a humanity check to avoid frenzy. Useful spells include Summon Lawyer, Summon Accountant, and the awesome Summon Head of Department. Bureaucratic HQ FTW!

In terms of being uninitiated, I would expect that no Malkioni of any caste can call on divine intervention, and few people actually know more than a couple of points of spirit magic, other than Zzaburi.  Then there is God Forgot...

22 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

But is all this ‘corruption’ going on to pick between people who have already passed the magical/spiritual tests, or is it undercutting it?

Calling it corruption may be going a bit far, given the situation.  It is more like intense political competition, where people with a home ground advantage are more likely to "win".  Remember there are no laws stopping nepotism, or preferential treatment.

18 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Well, if you are happy living in Monomythland, you can just recycle bits of the Yelm–Orlanth–Time story with Heler in a leading rôle. “Heler drowned the bright Emperor, then invaded the sky” (Storm Tribe, p. 75) sort of thing — I am not recommending that, mind, but isn’t it — wasn’t it? — the accepted way to get mythology by the yard at knock-down prices? Wikipedia even gives you a handy template:

Cynical, moi?

What’s in previews of the Cults Book(s)?

The Hero's journey doesn't have enough political back-biting, pointless bureaucracy, nepotism, and mind numbing boredom.

On 10/10/2022 at 4:31 AM, PhilHibbs said:

If awakened companion animals do join cults, I think that the nature of that cult, or at least the relationship of an awakened animal with the cult, will be very different from a civilized human.

Yes.  For example Yelorna is a fertility deity akin to Uleria for unicorns. (jk, but spreading vile rumors is fun🙈🙉🙊)

On 9/20/2022 at 5:29 AM, Sir Drum said:

I want to run Call of Cthulhu at my FLGS and will probably sign up to the Cult of Chaos OP program.

My dilemma is, with CoC having some pretty hairy concepts, how limiting are recommended age limits and content warnings to introducing people into this amazing game?

That's easy.  Steer away from the R Rated concepts.  No deep ones getting overly flippery with the humans.  No sorcerers body swapping into the opposite sex.  No interspecies mating.  No atavisms.  Keep the racism of the 1920s out of it.  If you need to skirt some uncomfortable issues, throw them into the catch-all term "torture"; describe screams, and leave well enough alone.  People's imaginations will fill in the details.   

16 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

Some of my PCs are reaching rune level and I am thinking about the best way to play their promotion. I dont want it to be just a technical step but something that can be role played. There is a lot of good stuff out there about running initiations (especially in SiS and CotD). But I can't find anything about rune levels. So I guess that I will play it out myself. 

Being given Rune status is very political.  You may have dozens of initiates who qualify, but few are chosen.  Each community will likely have relatively few rune levelers, as they represent a major economic investment by a community.  Each community MUST provide their rune levels a place of worship to manage, and land for their upkeep.  This often comes with the added cost of iron equipment.

There is an inevitable nepotism associated with initiating someone to rune level.  The fact is, the clan ring will invariably give preference to their direct kin.  The chief will want their son or daughter to be the next Orlanth Thunderous/Adventurous rune level and follow in their footsteps, and likewise your Lorekeeper, your Merchant, etc.  Humakti solve this issue with a series of duels among those who qualify, in order to retain a system of meritocracy.  Likewise, rune status for worshippers of deities of less influence are likely to be less nepotistic, but not without nepotism. 

Understand that every placement of a close family member into a position of power cements the entire family's fortune just that bit more within the clan hierarchy.  It is something that needs to be contested.  It is perfectly reasonable that duels might be fought over this issue, or there may be a waiting list, or any appointment must be decided on by the Clan/Tribe/City Ring.  Relatively few temples are truly independent and able to make their own appointments, but even there (perhaps moreso) issues of merit versus nepotism will be argued out.  Promises may need to be made, bribes paid, backs scratched, gods consulted.  Who knows?  Truly backwards clans where mob rule is the norm may even have something as despicable as a popular vote 😄.

On 10/10/2022 at 9:00 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Will the wyter take action on its own, or will it only take action as directed by its priest?

This is the nub of what you want to know, from what I can tell.  I think the telling thing is that Wyters have no INT.  How can you have agency without INT?  Well, the Wyter may have a sort of animal level of "spirit" instinct, but that would be the limit of it. It will likely defend itself or flee if attacked, for example, and perhaps seek sustenance. There is in Western occultism a nice fit for the Wyter in what is called an Egregore.   Egregores have been compared to the otherwise soulless legal fictional person of a Corporation within US Law (and those of countries that have adopted similar legal instruments).

14 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Deadeye the Death-Finder:

If a trickster or Humakti stays the night there and lives (which is rare), they get the Deadeye, which kills people they look at. Would this be like sever spirit?

It's more like a sever spirit they can't turn off unless they close their eyes imo.  Either be blind or a murderer.  I've just written a character who went thru that issue tbt.

38 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

One point I'd like to make here is that we need to remember that people have a tendency to not actually learn from those experiences. How many texts do we have written by such expeditionaries across the various parts of the world who got things woefully wrong??

On the other hand, we have ample evidence of those who got it right too.  It does seem like the sort of thing that increases with skill checks to me.

On 10/7/2022 at 6:07 PM, JRE said:

Argrath's saga is unreliable, but has the clearest description of the Iron Ring. In that (pro-Argrath) piece we have Argrath as leader, Orlaront and the purple sage (surely Minaryth). In King of Sartar's miscellaneous fragments Minaryth Purple appears as one of Kallyr's companions, her caster, which would point at her, as Argrath was busy in Pavis at that point. 

This ^^^.  I heard that Minayrith had the heels snapped off his boots by the closing mouth of the dragon as the party escaped.

On 10/1/2022 at 5:14 PM, Shiningbrow said:

Hi all.

One of my mates is a huge Burning Wheel fan, and has suggested that BW is a great way to tell the stories of Tolkien's Second Age - much better than any other RPG system. He thinks so because of the way that the system is designed around character motivations and how they deal with the success or failures of those (and not so much about skills, abilities, or magic). He then referenced CoC's insanity system as a good way to represent joy, sorrow, suffering, etc...

So, I thought I'd bring the question to here.

Could RQ do justice to the sorts of stories that Tolkien (and other good) authors write? Make the players really feel?

And. while I'm at it, how  would stats & skills look for the various races? Mostali would be a clean swap for stats, I suppose. As would most humans...

What would you do with magic?

It wouldn't be a Bronze Age any more (although, that's a bit irrelevant).

I just don't think Middle Earth Conversion therapy will work on Glorantha 😱😝.

On 9/22/2022 at 1:48 AM, PhilHibbs said:

My favourite piece of Trollball trivia is that before Trollkin existed, they used a live badger as ball. They was real Uz in those days.

We no need no steenkin' badgers!

20 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Death in the street? Are you perhaps thinking of someone else?

It is maybe worth quoting at length from Ray Monk’s account of the last days of dear old Ludwig (pp. 579-580 of my edition) as it touches on the topics of this thread:

It's possible.  I read that Wittgenstein had been neglecting himself physically for years prior to the cancer diagnosis, and collapsed while preparing to cross a highway in the rain soon after the diagnosis.  People stopped to help him, but he only lasted a few days thereafter.

This is somewhat off topic.

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Seems reasonable, that is the terms of the marriage are agreed in advance by the clan rings.   And it's not just financial haggling, but also includes other terms: which variety of marriage, year or life or...

Nevertheless the ceremony is when the deal is closed. And also when it is officially announced to and witnessed by both the wider families and the general public.

For role playing purposes I am interested in the details.

Remember that generational feuds have started over seating arrangements at wedding feasts.