Nevermet

Oh, I like this

ok, so... What more can we say about Ryzel since this thread began?

• Ryzel at the Dawn probably (?) had no Dragonewts, though it's possible there was a nest / tribe there before the Dawn and it was destroyed by Chaos (or something else) during the Darkness
• The Newts came with Palangio to retake Ryzel and/or they were the result of a curse. 
  • Either way, it sounds like they would be completely fine with the outcome of Arkat pushing Palangio back while they get to retain control of Ryzel.
• Given their experiences with the Bright Empire, I can appreciate that they'd be much more blunt about their territoriality.
  • Dealing with the Godlearners for a few centuries likely didn't improve things.

Given all this, I'm imagining that from the end of the Gbaji Wars on, Ryzel was an extremely guarded, insular place. The cultures around it likely had less mythical resources for engaging the Newts means things likely didn't improve.  It likely had a seige mentality as it fought off Slontos, Lopers, Pralori, and Herolans.

They probably had a few decades of desperation, until they revived the Inhuman King of Ryzel, who had been in cursed slumber since before Time (or something).  After that, they had a bit more control of their boundaries, though the GLs likely were a constant threat.  I like the idea up thread of the GLs trying out anti-draconic magic against Ryzel before they used it on the EWF.  I also suspect that the Dragonewts of Ryzel had absolutely no interest in the human weirdness of EWF.  ...I can imagine a doomed group, fleeing the EWF as it fell, hoping to find refuge in Ryzel... only to find Dragonewts that were at least as hostile to humans living there.

Current Relations

Jubal.  I suspect there was no trading relationship with Jubal or the Manirian Tribes until Castelein.  I think, knowing that Esrolia would want unique trade goods, Castelein somehow managed to engage and negotiate a deal with the Newts in exchange for the exquisite red dye.  My guess is that the Manirians of the lower Tigronior would risk the ire of Dragonewts to acquire the dye for some significant ritual purpose.  Castelein saw the situation, and normalized trade relations with the Newts in exchange for the Manirians not moving into Ryzel (among other things).

Kaxtorplose.  The Kaxtori probably have a very tenuous peace with the Dragonewts, and likely live in no small amount of fear that the Newts are going to just come out of the hills and try to finish what the Iron Vrok started (yes, IMG, the Kaxtori remember the Gbaji Wars quite well despite it being a millennia ago).  The Newts, OTOH, don't really care about Kaxtorplose since it is outside of their territory.  So... an uncomfortable "good fences make good neighbours" attitude has likely GENERALLY reigned since the Sinking of Slontos.

Handra.  I find it interesting that after the Sinking,  the Dragonewts absorbed the ruins just to its south, such as Gualal and Hermat.  I think the simplest interpretation of this is that they were always geographically part of what the Newts considered Ryzel.  I like @kr0p0s's idea of Zistorite secrets / horrors lurking in Slontan ruins, or Godlearner secrets more generally, but I don't think it feels particularly in character for Newts to go hunting for Zistorite artifacts.  Nevertheless, GL ruins on dry land will be an irresistable draw for adventurers, and I suspect more than a few of tried to find something.... and then ran in a panic as Dragonewts and things under their control drove them from the ruins.

Aldryami.  ....I could be wrong, but I think the Elves will let the Newts have Ryzel, and they'd be happy with the rest of Maniria getting blanketed in forest.

Anything in all that sound especially good or bad?

Well, I feel stupid for missing that.  Thanks.

I have most stuff published since the heroWars / HeroQuest stuff started to get published (Legally, I should mention).

Before that ... well... bah

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

Don't forget that Nysalor cursed the Dragonewts at the same time he cursed the Trolls, but a True Dragon awoke and ate the curse. Since then, Nysalor had Dragonewt mercenaries.

So, the Dragonewts of Ryzel might be the result of the failed curse, or the results of the curse once the True dragon ate it, or something else.

I did not know this at all! Sigh

Which book is this in?

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Newtling bachelors risking a term as slaves/indentured servants (and in quite a few cases, food) for a reward in dragon magic they can use as adults to defend the breeding ponds are what I assume to happen in Dragon's Eye, too. Maybe not in the Elder Wilds or Ormsland, and certainly not on Teleos or in Kralorela. (The 'newts there use Kralori humans instead? By force of Empire?)

Love this because it totally makes sense.

There are a million IFWW moments scattered through the history of Glorantha and before time.  They just don't usually get remembered and consecrated.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Isn't there something about Newtling Bachelors going to serve the Dragonewts as servants rather than slaves? I did raise my eyebrow at the mention of slavery in Ryzel.

The Guide doesn't say much at all, but it says slavery:

"Relations with Other Races: Newtlings are sometimes used as slaves by dragonewts, which they do not seem to mind. They are generally shy and fearful, especially of the humans who often chop off their tails as food." (P. 108)

It also notes, however, that Bachelors in general are struck with curiosity & wanderlust.

Do the Dragon Pass newts use slave labour, or is that unique to Ryzel?

39 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That was all from WF #14 (which is available in pdf now from Chaosium).  

 

More things on the birthday list...

35 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Theory: Ryzel was a God Time Dragonewt settlement that they made a deal with Nysalor to resettle. Perhaps to uncover and "revive" the eggs there or something to that effect. Bottom point: it was a return, not a colonization.

I love this.  There is so much one can do with this.

"Those aren't hills.  They're spines."

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

If we regard the dragonewts of Dragon Pass as newt orthodoxy, the Ryzel newts seem to be the second most orthodox group in all of Glorantha. The Kralori newts with the use of the Dragon Emperor as their inhuman king are weirder. (But then, they would say that they are the truly orthodox newts, and the Pass ones are corrupted by their survival in weakness.)

One of teh things I'm curious about is when did Ryzel get its Inhuman King.  That seems like a big deal

5 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Here's some odds and ends of thoughts from WF#14, which is the original source for all things Dragonewt.

"The Ancestral Dragons are known to have laid eggs of their own, just as the Cosmic Dragon had laid the Cosmic Egg. The favored nesting place for them was the place of their mystic mating dance, Dragon Pass, although some came from other parts of the world." - maybe Ryzel is one of them, and the Inhuman King sent the dragonewts there with Palangio, but really for the ultimate goal of finding one of these ancient nesting sites.

"The origins of the dragonewt race lies in the childhood of the True Dragons. This was before the coming of plants, animals, or humans; and some say even before the coming of mountains, rivers, and sky. They lived and grew in innocence for different lengths of time, and during that time they were immature. Sometimes these immature dragons clutched in innocent bliss and left behind them eggs which were, like the parents, immature. In that era when there was no limit to the creativity of the world, the eggs hatched and brought forth the race of dragonewts.
Because there were several matings, there were several 'tribes' of dragonewts. Several of these tribes were joined by common parentage through the dragon known as the Wonderous Mother of Many."

"When the gods of Disorder and Chaos began infringing upon the world the dragons and their kin did nothing. They were populous and powerful but did not move when their friends and surroundings were destroyed, nor did they seem to be affected when vast portions of their own, lesser kin were wiped out by the invasions of Chaos. In fact, it seemed as if the entire dragonewt race was willing to let itself be passively slain." - the two places of resistance were Kralorela (resisted in Strength) and Dragon Pass (resisted in Weakness). Likely if Ryzel was originally a nesting ground, it was destroyed or broken.

Also note the route of the Dragonewt march (if you haven't seen, a dragonewt expedition with particular dragonewt characters is described in the text):

"Once through Dorastor they will cross the Kartolin Pass and descend into Ralios. There are many dragonewts there, all barbarians, but the Master expects to negotiate or fight his way through them. The triceratops is intended to be a gift for one strong tribe which he knows of and was friendly with the last time he contacted them (about 180 years ago). Master Lord.Prince has mentioned that they will be visiting the fabled Marshes of Ralios to retrieve something, but he will mention no more than that. After visiting the marshes the party will
enter the Nidan Mountains at High Llama Pass and thereby enter Fronela. They will travel overland through Jonating territory and other lands as needs be. The final goal is the ancient and legendary city of Sag, at the far edge of the world....There, in that city of legend and danger and sin lies the final goal of the party. Only Master Lord-Prince knows what that is."

Whether the "marshes of Ralios" are actually in Ralios, or actually are Ryzel, is unclear as that part of the world was not well-described in those days (e.g. Ken Rolston had a campaign in the "New Fens of Ralios" which are actually the marshes around Handra).

the Mother of Many material is in the Guide, but the rest is completely new to me.  Is that in WF also?

Holy crap, responses!

Let's see.  First, based on what I've read, it seems like the Ryzel newts came with Palangio.  I don't fully understand everything that implies, but it is very different than if they were in Ryzel at the Dawn.  It also creates the question of why did the Dragonewts stay in Ryzel rather than retreat with Palangio, and why did Arkat's forces let them?  I'm assuming the answer to the second question is that it takes a near impossible amount of effort to prevent immortal humanoid dragons from setting somewhere.  It also sets up a strange consequences of the Gbaji Wars for Maniria: where the Aldryami were almost the only elder race present, now two more settle down.

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

An interesting thing about Ryzel is that it doesn't seem to have been in contact with the EWF.  So the God Learners had a native dragonewt population which they could test their magics on before using them on the battlefield elsehwere.

This was very much on my mind: How would the Godlearners have dealt with Newts living nextdoor to Slontos?  I'd imagine there was a tension between GL curiosity, and caution over ticking off the alien Dragonewts.  Beyond that... no idea.

Also, as an aside, could someone point me toward where to read about Dragonewt involvement in the Bright Empire?  What I've found is very fragmented.  

And it's time for more of my babblings about Maniria.  This time, I'm turning my attention to the mysterious, the weird... the Dragonewts of Ryzel.

What we know about them is... pretty limited:

• They have been there since they marched with Palangio the Iron Vrok into Maniria (History of the heortling people)
  • It appears they remained after Palangio left
• There are approximately 8,000 Dragonewts in Ryzel (I forgot to add this before)
• They have their own Inhuman King (many sources)
• They hunt humans in Ryzel, but nowhere else (Guide)
• They have absorbed a few Slontan ruins into their territory since the flood, such as Gualal and Hermat (Guide)
• They trade insects used to make a brilliant red dye to the Trader Princes of Jubal in exchange for something that humans find eccentric or even humiliating (Guide)
• They use Newtlings as slaves (Guide)
• There is a famous tailed priest named New Wyrmish who is rather disgraced among the Dragonewts, but is very open to humans
• There MIGHT be communication to Dragon Pass newts

....And that's it.  Literally, that's it. That's... not a lot.  If  a game was set in Jubal or Kaxtorplose (or anywhere in Nimistor, or in Handra), there would need to be a lot added.

I was planning on writing some interpretation and filling gaps, but I'll do that tomorrow.  Night.

I assume there's a dumb theory or two in trying to equate the illiteracy plague and the Cult of Silence?

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Yes, I am still waiting for the dumb part.

It involves Castelein.  At least for me 🤣

Mmm... feast...

How are your players thinking about what's going on?  Not just, like, are they having fun, but where do they see things going, are they really focusing on any traits of their characters, etc.

I have nothing to add yet, but thank you, this is great.  All of it.

I will be citing all of this as I try to think through more about Maniria, especially the time before Dormal where the Manirian Road was at its most profitable.

Oh, the New Coast and the Poison Shore are rich mosaics of horror.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It's not really that odd, truth be told. 😄  

Shh!  The Dara Happans will hear you!

On 8/1/2020 at 5:01 AM, Nick Underwood said:

An attempt to save Glorantha from the post-modern pessimism of it's creators?

I would double down on (a version of) postmodernism, and look for hope in the local.  How does the community associated with the PCs struggle to survive the everything

I'm still reading, but I have nothing worth saying to anything, sadly.

I also haven't had time to dig through some of the Stafford Library, but I want to.  I am especially curious about illumination in the Entekosiad, as I like Pelandan history & myth more han Dara Happan (I'm odd)

Depending on some details or one's perspective, that's potentially more terrifying than oblivion.

On 7/30/2020 at 11:16 AM, kr0p0s said:

But what of Zistorite belief, sorcery and artifacts, especially in Maniria. May some of this have survived in the cities of Highwall and Vision, especially in the Slontan relics there in the Low Temple. May unholy machine creations lurk in the ruins on the shores of Maniria?

I suspect the Low Temple would have blueprints for Zistorite machines, and perhaps some small devices.  Large things would have been left behind as they escaped the Flood.

As for Highwater, I think anything they had would have been appropriated by Trader Princes long ago.  I imagine most of the Trader Prince Cities would have a "Chamber of Wonders" where they present fascinating artifacts from across the world.  I'd imagine more than one has a Zistorite device in them.  Of course, there's always the possibility that something is buried beneath Highwater... or is Highwater.  "Saved from the Flood by their faith" takes on a different meaning when one's faith is embodied by sorcerous super-tech.

I can't imagine Kaxtorplose was ever that into Zistor, as it has always been too genuinely reverent toward Earth deities for me to think that they could get behind Zistorism.

The Dragonewts violently claim Gualal and other ruins west of Kaxtorplose as their own and let no humans near them.  Zistorite artifacts may be part of why.  Or part of why humans want to get there.

As for Ramalia... yeah, they have mechanical horrors, along with their boar horrors, feudal horrors, sorcerous horrors, tapping horrors, Zorak Zoran horrors... I keep trying to get my players to get involved in a Ramalian resistance movement and they keep refusing.

As for an extant population still practicing something that can be identified as Zistorite, I doubt it (though there are likely some strange versions of Malkionism in isolated communities along the New Coast.