Nevermet

6 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Do we have any sort of writing on the nature of the region's Land Goddess that explains this? Sometimes it seems like the quakes are imposed externally, sometimes it seems they're caused by internal mythic mechanisms. It'd be interesting to have some lore that perhaps shows a mythic precedent for why Maniria tends to, uh, roll over, every once in a while. 

I am not currently aware of such a piece that is written.  However, it is something I need to either find or write.  I don't even have disorganized thoughts about this, but here are some mythical elements I know should probably be accounted for in the discussion (I'm sure there are others):

• Maniria is a land people keep going to, rather than coming from.  This includes a land goddess, Ketha, the land goddess of the Holy Country, who left the Holy Country during the Storm Age.  I don't have a full handle on the consequences of this, but it seems very noteworthy.
• Maniria is where Heler swore fealty to Orlanth after rescuing them from Aroka.
• Just as there are multiple floods, is there something like the Goddess Switch and/or the reading of the Book of Secrets that can be identified for the other Floods?

After a long hiatus, I'm trying to get back in the groove of writing about Maniria. So, to do that, I have a lot of strange questions, mostly related to me trying to map out the mythical and cosmological geography of Maniria. In that vein: here is my first question: 

Am I correct in thinking that if someone is a literal, non-metaphorical child of a god or goddess in Glorantha, this means they were likely born before the Dawn?  Who are the exceptions to this rule, if any?

Reason I am asking: A central figure in 1st Age Maniria is Kaxtor, who is stated to be the son of the hero Fodalor and Esrolia.  It appears that this is framed as a factual statement, rather than an honourific.  Assuming that is true, it is important to know if this means Kaxtor was born before time, since it would mean that both he and his father were both borderline immortal when the Bright Empire arrived.

I don't actually have much of a preference on this issue, but I'd like clarification so I can continue to construct my history.

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Caladraland extended to the Pelushi Volcano and served as a buffer between Wenelia and Esrolia. "Haraldland" is now the Old Woods and Longsiland, and Kotorsland is what is now the Ditali and Thomble.  A Lightbringers dynasty ruled in Herolal and Wenelia, originally from the Unity Council lands.

 

Another theory that I feel is justifiable but not proven:

According to the Guide, Herolal "dominated the surrounding lands until the kingdom was torn apart by a feud between the king and its most powerful champion, Fodalor, who was exiled in 315. The ruling dynasty was wiped out in civil war and political contact with Dragon Pass was lost in 320."

Thought it is not stated, I lean toward thinking that this was a conflict between the local Entruli population and a population from Kethaela.  This tension also brought down the earlier Herlaning kingdoms.

30 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Does Meetinghall Mountain still exist?  I can't find it anywhere.

Found it in Blood over Gold.  It is listed there as south of Lukae, just to the east of the current Ramalian coast.

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

And something that @Nevermet might find of interest, Jeff noted the relationship between Kethaela and Slontos:

 

Yes!  Yes, I do 🙂

A few reactions: 

• It fits with something I had already guessed, which is that when Entru went west, he created a community that welcomed in many other people, including ex-Hsunchen. I suspect the Holy Country is most aware of the Boar associations because of Harand's attempts to take Arrowmound.  
• Jeff mentioned the bit about Porluftha / Erenplose before, and it blew my mind that it sunk after the Dawn.
  • Also, Maniria gets a divine flood once per age, it would seem.  First the destruction of Porluftha, then the sinking of Slontos, and then whatever the Hero Wars Flood takes.
• The Pralori are just fascinating
  • I wonder if Yelm remained actively worshipped by the Pralori after Nysalor left.  It would help explain why they are some of the most "imperialistic" Hsunchen I know of.
  • EDIT: Also, in my Pralori thread, there was at least a little discussion of when the Pralori showed up in Maniria.  It's now confirmed that they were there either at the Dawn or very soon after.
• Its good to have confirmation that Malkionism was present on the coasts of Maniria by the time Arkat showed up.  
• It also makes sense that the coast of Maniria had a lot of Lightbringer worship, probably imported by the Vathmai.
  • I'm not 100% sure what Pre-Vathmai Entruling religion looked like.  While it was definitely Orlanthi, it was also probably quite different than the Vingkotlings.  Probably much more animistic, due to the Hsunchen and Aldryami influences.

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Caladra and Aurelion, two of the most prominent children, were spread across much of the Homeward Ocean.  Possibly linked together by the Godlearners.

The old cults writeup notes about the Holy Places: The three main temples and holy places are: The Breakwater, located on Jrustela Island; Meetinghall Mountain, the highest surviving mountain in the Slontos Isles; and Caladra’s Vent, the largest active volcano in the Holy Country. At these three sites, the old volcanic fires are constantly active, though seldom violent, even though the nearby mountains are dormant.

Does Meetinghall Mountain still exist?  I can't find it anywhere.

New dumb theory: Maniria is named after Mani Tor of Big Rubble.

Once, he was an immortal Entruling hero who wandered the lands south of the Ryzel Hills, helping Entruling communities fight against the Lopers.  He was instrumental in unifying the city states of Gualal, Bemelor, and Herolal against this common foe.  To gain the aid of the Middle Sea Alliance to destroy the Lopers, he agreed to become an agent of the Godlearners.  The province of Maniria was named in his honour (GtG, P. 351).

He was sent to Robcradle to assist with the acquisition of cradles, and survived the destruction of the city by the giants and Waha.  After 30 years of surviving in the Praxian wilderness, he befriended Pavis.  Though never a central ally like Flintnail, Mani found a place in the strange city.  When Pavis fell, he developed a group of fanatical followers.  To this day, he continues to be reincarnated to help them.  He knows of the twisted things the Godlearners became (which is why he did not return), and the sinking of his homeland.

This, I submit, is a dumb theory.  Or at least excessive.

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Back in June, I believe, I made a thread asking about this very question, ie. their relation. No answer then. Interesting to get now. Of a kind, at least. 

 

This can also be tied into the complex Heat-Matter interaction of the Entekosiad, as ViSaruDaran interacts with BesedEria (and multiple gradients above and below mirroring this interaction at different levels).

I wonder if the childrin of Lodril, or Turos other children have correlations with some of the other volcano gods in Maniria and the Holy Country (Pelushi, Howler, Caladra and Aurelion. etc).  I'm guessing no, but I'm unsure.  I guess it would make sense that a greater deity like Lodril is known in many places, but his children tend to be more geographically specific.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Nothing besides what's in the Guide or old RQ Companion, or the material in the cult of Caladra and Aurelion (available currently in the Glorantha Classics Cult Compendium).

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Thanks for this

I won't say this diagram proves the following, but it doesn't disprove a few things that work IMG:

• The Harandings broke from the Entruli before the Dawn
  • Kotor may have been a "no man's land", but I don't believe it was completely unpopulated.  Rather its a neo-haranding culture, semi-
• Veakmal of the Herlanings brought Malkionism to Maniria with his wife when he founded Ramalia

Slightly updated diagram with Jaja's comments, plus the Theyalans:

Just now, jajagappa said:

Hard to say if Kaxtorplose and Fay Jee existed at the Dawn or not.

I'm willing to believe anything regarding Fay Jee.

My reading of the Guide suggests Kaxtorplose was founded by Kaxtor & Fodolor circa 315, though this is not the only interpretation.

A few notes:

• The Dawn Age is lacking some detail.  I don't have the Theyalans, Herilia, Veakmal, etc.
  • I also don't have good data on the locations of surviving humans at the Dawn in Maniria, other than the Endaka caves, Pig Hollow, and the Solung Plateau.
  • Very quickly, however, it appears maniria could be labelled as "entruli", which IMG is a non-Vingkotling type of Orlanthi
• Making this has made me appreciate the politcal/cultural complexities of Caladraland over the years, and how it is sometimes unified, sometimes split.
  • It also intrigues me that at the Dawn
  • Is there a detailed history of Caladraland anywhere?
• I need to do digging in Stafford Library to flesh out the relationships with especially Esrolia

Because I was stressed today, I took a break from reality and made this: a diagram of the cultural evolution of Maniria.  This is based almost exclusively on The Guide, using the maps in the Time chapter, as well as the chapters on Maniria, Holy Country, and Ralios.

Explanation of colours:

• Pink is early Dawn Age
• White is Second Council
• Gray is right after the Arkat / Nysalor wars
• Orange is Imperial Age
• Blue is immediately after Slontos sank
• Gold is late 3rd age

Explanation of shapes:

• Square: the Entruli - Manirian complex of cultures
• Ovals: Hsunchen cultures
• Diamond: Esrolian, and eventually Holy Country
• Parallelagram: Ralios
• Trapezoid: Malkioni
• Inverted Trapezoid: Caratan and Handra
• Triangle: "Veskarthan" peoples who are culturally & religiously similar to Caladraland, but politically independent.

Verse 3 begins with the players and a squad of several city guards going back into Ogre Town.  They find ogres and the head Wizard of Selgos conducting a ritual to summon the Cacodemon.  There are also several guards, human and ogres, and a (small-ish) dinosaur.  They also send a city guard to the immortal sorcerer to let them know what's going on - the last thing they need is to have a batallion of zombies panicking.

• They focus their missle fire on the rider of the dinosaur, knocking him off.  They then distract the dinosaur, leading it down a street away from everything else.  They send the Newtlings to do this.
• The merchant has a spell that hurts one's ability to speak.  She crits on the Wizard, de-railing the ritual temporarily.
• The city guard does battle with the extra guards.  A relatively fair fight, but the city guard slowly gets the upper hand
• The PCs try to engage the ogres in combat, but the ogres just flee.  One gets away.

While declaring victory, the city guard that was sent to deal with the necromantic sorcerer returns.... as a zombie.  Furious, the PCs march up to the sorcerer, who informs them he took the guard as payment for the zombie they destroyed previously.  He announces a desire to seal off Ogre Town once and for all from the surface world, so he can return to his studies.  The players, injured and tired, decide to take the win and leave.

And really, that's the conclusion.

In some ways, I felt the climax wasn't particularly climactic.  But it was mostly the rolls fault, though I need to get better about when to allow things to be stretches, and also to put the PCs in situations that force them to use their HPs all the time.

My players are having a blast, and they are deeply invested in the characters at this point, which is good.

Later in the week, I'll start a new thread with the new campaign.

More later - dinner

ok.... wow... a lot has happened.  I will start a new thread for the new Chapter, but this is the rest of Calamity Comes to Selgos, in its entirety, though briefly:

Verse 1: The Discovery of "Ogre Town"

• The characters find a chaos monster in the Ogre hideout.  It tries to kill them, they defend themselves, light the building on fire, and duck into a tunnel beneath the building.  The chaos monster, now on fire, screams in agony but does not pursue.  
   
• The party discovers a truly bizarre dungeon: a square mile or so of a city that was engulfed by the earth when Slontos sunk, several centuries ago.  Many of the buildings are intact... or rebuilt.  They find and capture some human guards who were hired by the Ogres.  The players dub this place "Ogre Town," and we run with that name.
   
• While exploring the city, they find Mistress Stew, an ancient Ogress.  She seriously injures the merchant before the other two PCs and their henchman kill her.  They roll very well, and manage to disappear down one of the twisted, ruined alleyways.  After making sure they can catch their breathe, the Ditali healer mends the merchant's jaw that Stew broke with a backhand.
   
• Over the next day, the heroes stumble about Ogre Town, staying 1 step in front of the ogres.  3 events occur:
  • They find a tunnel with cold air and Trollkin coming in and out, patrolling and searching for something.  The players decide quickly the last thing they need is Uz trouble, and walk away slowly.
  • They find an ancient mansion, half destroyed, covered with newly made barricades and traps.  Upon further inspection, they find 2 Newtling cousins.  They are the last surviving members of a band of bachelors who foolishly hunted down the ogres, only to find themselves trapped in Ogre Town.  The skald PC spends a hero point to make them into companions.  I decide to make 1 companion out of the 2 inseperable cousins.
  • They find an immortal Godlearner who has only cared about his library for the last 400 years.  Is is proudly amoral, grumpy, and served by a collection of undead he's animated over the years.  He's annoyed the PCs destroyed two of his servants, but given that he dislikes the ogres, he shows them the way to the surface, with the agreement they will pay him in the future.  He does not specify, and they are afraid to ask.

Verse 2: Gathering Forces

• The PCs are faced with the fact that they cannot attack an ogre lair of that size by themselves, being just a merchant, a skald, and a healer.  So, they wheel and deal with everyone they can think of: the local noble, the healers camp outside the city wall, the entertainers guild... they put together a small group of about 15 additional people
   
• While this is going on, they finally break the news that the head Wizard of the city is working with the ogres.  The City's First Judge is... displeased.  They ask to see the wizard's private quarters.  The First Judge agrees, but requires they do not take anything without his approval.  They see many spellbooks they are not allowed to take, but they are allowed to take a map that appears to show the entrances to Ogre Town around Selgos.
   
• The Heroes devise a plan: their temporary menions would, all at the same time, throw brush and trash into all the entrances but one, light them on fire, and keep the entrances ablaze.  The Heroes, and 6 remaining city guards, would descend into the city.

4 hours ago, Voriof said:

For what it is worth to anyone, Greg sent me off to Maniria way back in the day to write because he felt it was a place that was not going to be heavily touched by the upcoming trouble - certainly not to the level Dragon Pass will be.  A good, quiet place for people, especially NEW PEOPLE, to build a campaign and a world to their liking.  A place with history but it was very much a place where players might become the movers and shakers as there really wasn't much of a future script other than, say, Harrek returning and burning everything to the ground. AGAIN.

Yeah, Harrek does that, the lil scamp...

But I also agree that it's relatively quiet.  The Hero Wars come to Maniria a generation later, it seems: After Ralios deals with All My Arkats, and the Holy Country gets sucked up into the Antics of Argrath, then Maniria has to worry about getting magically reforested and also flooded.  AGAIN.

Harrek is a problem, but he doesn't kill a region, he "just" sacks some cities. 

....I do not know why I wanted to be this snarky with the post.  I'm leaving it in, and hoping I do not offend.

4 hours ago, Voriof said:

Still in a forest by the Sea but without coffee.

 

This is an injustice that must be corrected

On 8/25/2020 at 9:56 PM, scott-martin said:

From what I can figure out, Tarin's survival covenant seems to have been a bit less generous and more introverted. Their achievement was getting different elf communities to work together with a few liminal outsiders but that's really as far as it went. As a result, while they learned how to interact with various forms of meat within Time (there have been experiments with trade / diplomacy), it isn't their preferred mode of operating so true Tarin Friends are both scarce and weird.

This doesn't make Tarin evil or even "xenophobic," which can be an easy way to create a Blank Land where nobody talks and nothing is known. They were active in the Bright Empire because it suited their internal religious goals and might preserve deep mysteries of Nysalor to this day in the forest deeps off the conquest routes.  But that was a long time ago. I suspect they are vicious to the pig people, ambivalent around the serpent shamans of the "western jungle" and aloof around other elder races. My dumb theory is that their particular "eaters" weren't what we call trolls at all and have mostly died out.

Connecting this to Tarinwood's continued support of Ramalia's rulers gets very intriguing.

On 8/27/2020 at 5:52 AM, Voriof said:

That said, I seem to recall Nick always found them to be decadent, decaying and verging on irrelevance (that's a poor choice of words) but I found them to be dynamic and revitalized.  I think it's just the POV. Nick looked at them from outside (and perhaps through the viewpoint of feudal nobility). I looked at them from the point of being the sons and daughters of explorers, traders, and negotiators who were rising to the occasion.  Nick lives in a country full of Castles. I live in a country full of fur trading posts.  Empire of the Bay (about the Hudson Bay Company) was something that I read and referenced from time to time.  (Oh dear, I'm getting serious again and less silly...)

These really aren't that far apart.  The Trader Princes have spent 4 centuries controlling and facilitating trade and cultural diffusion across a region defined by magical disaster.  Holding up in one's castle and being dynamic enough to survive are two sides of the same coin.

Family and work have stabilized enough that I'm back.  The game has continued, and I will updating things.

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

And who can forget this depiction of Prince Argrath from the RuneQuest Companion. Looks very German-Celt to me.

I always felt this pic had a hint of "ancient alien" to it as well

🥺

Bad news:  Game postponed until Sunday due to medical emergency.

Good news: one of my players has requested an "Old School Dungeon Crawl."

HOW CAN I SAY NO